June 18, 2008
Why Women Leave Science and Technology Careers
A new Harvard Business Review paper argues that women leave science and technology careers in droves because of “hostile macho cultures” and risk-taking incentives, among other reasons.
The paper, produced by the Center for Work-Life Policy, found that more than half of women who enter science, engineering, and technology careers drop out. The paper’s authors identified several “antigens” in corporate sci/tech cultures that force women out: macho work environments, feelings of isolation or career stagnation, cultures that encourage risk-taking, and time-intensive positions that compromise family responsibilities. The study also analyzes 13 company initiatives that try to combat these pressures.
Studies from MIT, the National Science Foundation, and elsewhere have previously addressed the female brain drain in the sciences. The Chronicle has also covered efforts at universities to combat the “antigens” cited in the HBR study. The University of Southern California has set up a support network for women in science and engineering, for example, and Carleton College has developed a sort of professor mentoring program that seems to encourage more female students into science Ph.D. programs.—Catherine Rampell
Posted on Wednesday June 18, 2008 | Permalink |Comments
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So the problem is women won’t take risks, won’t spend enough time at work, choose unconventional and even ‘mysterious’ career paths, and don’t successfully fit into the workplace culture. My gosh, if I said that, I’d be branded a MCP!
:8)
— Gerard Harbison, UNL Jun 18, 04:55 PM #
If they can’t stand the heat, they should get back to the kitchen.
— Harry S Truman Jun 18, 09:12 PM #
As a former female tenure track professor who left a position due to harrassment and who is in the process of leaving another due to the “macho culture” in science I can say with no reservations that men think they know everything. They bond together to belittle females professors who have ideas and opinions regarding research and academia. They also act unfairly when conducting reviews and they gossip about their female colleagues. It is them, rather than us who should stay in the kitchen….then they can watch soap operas during the day and participate in the same small minded non-sense that I have experienced throughout my career as a scientist. Frankly, in a country like the USA I find it outrageous that the tenure track bully system is still in existence. Why don’t you academics wake-up and realize that this culture only hinders bright, talented people and the without us, the future of science in general will be harmed.
— Kim Jun 18, 10:57 PM #
The sexist comments posted on this website point to the problems that exist in academic culture. These are considered funny? Men are allowed to say these things without shame or retribution.
— PJ Jun 19, 06:46 AM #
Men in Science need to agree that achieving equity in this field is a “must have” as well as a “nice to have” before any real changes can be made. The arrogant assumption that women can’t cut it and don’t have what it takes to add value to the realm denies them (men) the benefits that more women would bring to the field. Perhaps women do things differently, perhpas they have odd career paths, perhaps they don’t function as well as men in the world of science, but if the world of science were reconfigured according to criteria which women determined, the richness they bring would be more obvious. We’ll never know though, as long as we are looking through the lens of male supremacy.
— corinne knowles Jun 19, 06:46 AM #
Why haven’t we learned just how limiting gender roles and expectations are? Why haven’t we learned how we use gendered comments to control one another? We are supposedly the educated people in our culture…will we never learn?
— Lynn Jun 19, 07:47 AM #
PJ, you wrote: “Men are allowed to say these things without shame or retribution.”
Retribution? Your retribution is your very comments. Would you prefer to silence your critics by calling their words hate speech? This journal is produced in the U.S., not a communist country, Nazi Germany, or Canada. As Justice Brandeis said, the remedy for the speech that you don’t like is more speech, not enforced silence (Whitney v. CA 1927).
— dawg Jun 19, 07:57 AM #
I think Kim whines too much.
— pd Jun 19, 08:03 AM #
Since I have worked in a male dominated field of software engineering for the past 12 years, I find the work of Fox applicable in my work environment. Diversity can be described as having a diverse team of intellectual individuals from many cultures (Fox, Johnson, and Rosser). Furthermore the industry could have saved billions of dollars and years of redesign efforts in design of alternative methods of disabling seat belts. According to Fox, Johnson, and Rosser, the Department of Defense contracted to commercial companies to design cockpits for their fleet of aircrafts throughout the military. Most cockpits were designed to accommodate 90% of men and exclude 70% of women (Fox, Johnson, and Rosser). If only the auto industry and military would have had a diverse team which included women and men of different ages, race, and culture, these industries could have avoided these costly errors.
As a woman in engineering with a master’s degree in software engineering and all but dissertation for my doctoral degree, I have been reduced to little or no work each day. At one time, I lead a team of electrical engineers, software engineers, programmers, database administrators and system administrators along with doing and overseeing each part of their job while managing the entire network. With a blink of an eye and a new male supervisor in the government, stripped my role as a project lead and reduced to answering one or two emails a day. The position my supervisor holds requires a degree, yet he has never attended college.
— dl Jun 19, 08:18 AM #
Way to go, commenters #1, #2, and #8. By speaking, you’ve undermined your entire point.
I am yet another female scientist to add to this bunch. Growing up, I thought that feminists were just whiny complainers and that gender equity issues had already been resolved. Upon entering graduate school I realized that was far from the case, as I started to experience differential treatment from my male peers, and I noticed that it only got worse the higher up you go. I still plan on becoming a scientist, but I also want to have children pretty soon. I’m honestly not sure how that is going to work, given the schedule they expect us to keep and the greater scrutiny that mothers face as opposed to fathers (even those who take on equal responsibilities with the children. Just being the mom means everyone is more skeptical of you.)
I’m hoping that it works out for me, but I’m also hoping that the system changes. Why should science be run so differently from other fields?
— Kat Jun 19, 08:46 AM #
I realize one observation is not a
sound argument. However,
back in the 80’s a colleague of mine was a graduate of Beijing University(China’s best, I hear).
She is intelligent,fearless, and works well with others.
However,at NIH she had some,well, challenges,working with some. She asked one if he had a problem working with women. He said yes, he did not like working with women.
Not sure if this was indicative of any subculture at NIH.My colleague,to the best of
my knowledge was a risk taker,very career oriented, assertive,and intelligent.
She left NIH, because of these, well , attitudes. All I can think,is what a loss to research in her area.
Hoping things have changed since then. Overall, being an optimist,I believe they have.
— Janice Flahiff Jun 19, 08:54 AM #
These proposed changes that suggest a mentorship program are great, but often this added service burden is not taken into account in the review process for female assistant professors. Want to know one more reason that women and minorities have such a hard time getting tenure? They usually have 10 times as many informal advisees as their white male counterparts. It’s because there are so few of them, so each student from the same identity group flocks to you for support. I write about 5 times as many letters of recommendation as my male counterparts and get requests to meet with students about 6 times as often. I enjoy this, but I don’t think that anyone who is promoting me notices or cares. I do feel a I have a duty to promote these young girls, though, so the path is not as hard for them.
— Margaret Jun 19, 08:56 AM #
I think Kat whines too much.
— pd Jun 19, 09:11 AM #
This story touched a nerve. Good. More discussion of these issues will let women scientists know that they are not alone. The men who are the real problem will not read this story let alone comment on it…the topic is not macho enough.
— Mary Ann Jun 19, 09:19 AM #
I like behaving like a male.
I find women interesting to a point.
The problem is that we need we need more GOOD-LOOKING females in the science field.
— unabashed male Jun 19, 09:37 AM #
I think pd is slow-witted.
— dp Jun 19, 10:01 AM #
Why would good-looking women want to work with a bunch of sexist geeks?
— Chris Jun 19, 10:07 AM #
To make the picture more complete, let me add that college administrators (especially in state institutions) often exert pressure on departments to hire more female candidates during search processes to make the gender distribution more even. Some have unofficial policy that between equal candidates a woman must be given the first offer. Also, it is significantly easier for female professors to obtain research support from federal agencies for the same reason — grant administartors have similar kind of pressure upon them. (I am talking about sciences here.)
— Mark de Goz Jun 19, 10:33 AM #
why would any woman with a brain, good-looking or not, want to work with a bunch of sexists, geek or not?
— mlp Jun 19, 10:56 AM #
Calm down girls.
Who’s the name-calling sexist now?
— unabashed male Jun 19, 11:15 AM #
And while were at it, let’s butch up the fashion industry. I wanted to work in it but it was dominated by a feminine and prissy environment hostile to masculinity.
— Doeke Jun 19, 11:33 AM #
It kind of makes you wonder about those many women who do succeed. Are they, in fact, very convincing cross-dressed men?
— Monk Jun 19, 11:39 AM #
Think of the personality stereotype of scientists: they don’t relate well to other people. It is no surprise that many of them can’t meet the challenge of relating to women. They respond by engaging in conduct that most us find to be unacceptable.
— luigi Jun 19, 11:56 AM #
Wow! All the sexist comments on this topic really proves Kim’s and DL’s points. I am a male Ph.D. currently working at a public, science and technology research institution for over 13 years. In and outside the classroom I have dealt with female students’ and faculty complaints about the male dominant culture here. My male colleagues really do look down on women in general and do not feel they should even be in their disciplines.
Alot of this has to do with at least two things: Many of the protagonists are old and set in their ways; and too many are from cultures that demean women. That’s the nature of the science and technology university, research centers and other work environments in the US.
Brilliance and brilliant ideas do not dwell exclusively in male brains. Until we realize this, we will continue to lag behind other societies. Think of this: The top 10% of Chinese students out-number the total US population. Translation: They have more honors students than we have people. Half of these brilliant students are female. While many of us men in academe are acting like immature boys, thinking that we know it all, societies like China are moving ahead.
— L.T. Jun 19, 12:03 PM #
While working as a consultant to a Federal agency, I took part in a compliance review of an engineering program at a major research university. There were few women professors in the department or as graduate students. Those that were said that toxic personalities of some of the men, the difficulty that younger academics had in getting grants, and the nature of the tenure system were driving women out of universities.
— heartland Jun 19, 12:13 PM #
I’m a dude and I agree with this. This happens too often and many times outside of the science and engineering field as well. I’m not sure how this rates as in issue in other cultures, but its very much a reality that needs addressing here.
However I don’t agree with the risk-taking and the time sensitive parts. Thats just part of doing well in most careers. Hypothetical situation, Susan has a family obligations and doesn’t have the time or energy to devote to her job like her colleague Mary who is single and has the same job with the same drive, motivation, and skills as Susan. I bet you Mary has an easier time succeeding in her career.
Thats just nature of the beast in my opinion and don’t see gender being a major factor affecting it.
— C Jun 19, 12:22 PM #
In my former workplace, male scientists with only a fraction of the measurable qualifications I and other women had (for example, in number of publications in presitgious peer-reviewed journals) were promoted quickly to senior posts. I and other women with far more publications etc. advanced only slowly, and never to senior levels. I finally left for other work, tired of the fight. The result? Research at my former workplace and many other U.S. science institutions advances at a much slower rate than it could if we made fuller use of ALL of our scientific talent, not just the percentage that resides in males.
Christine A.
— Christine Jun 19, 12:34 PM #
Unabashed Male (and some others in this thread, both male and female) are simply trolls. They can be cheerfully ignored.
But the point is a good one. Academics and scientists need to come to terms with the abilities and accomplishments of women in their field.
— Al Jun 19, 12:52 PM #
Women are too smart to choose science as a career. Philip Greenspun says it all at:
http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science
— Woman who left science for a more fulfilling career Jun 19, 01:16 PM #
What some of my fellow male academic scientists are too proud, stupid, and/or prejudiced to recognize is that by alienating female colleagues, such men deprive science and our institutions of AT LEAST 50% of the intelligent, creative people who could contribute to our enterprise. I say that because women account for >50% of the people in the country and therefore >50% of the smart ones. Some of the comments posted to this site sicken me because they clearly show how distorted and prejudiced the thinking of men can be. I have tried throughout my career to encourage talented women and will continue to do so. I just wish bigoted men would grow up and see what they are missing.
— John Jun 19, 01:24 PM #
I was in a male-dominated field from 1977-2002 and never noticed any problem with the men’s attitudes towards me. I do feel as if I was originally hired because they had some quota to fulfill and I was the first female to apply and they could finally breathe a sigh of relief that they could finally hire a female, but once entrenched in the field, I had no trouble fitting in.
— deborah Jun 19, 01:33 PM #
Wow! This thread just goes to show you that even years of formal graduate education can’t fix stupid. Perhaps this is a sign that core curriculum componets should include gender equality elements…
— Nichole Jun 19, 01:58 PM #
blah, blah, blah
— pd Jun 19, 02:13 PM #
You know, these posts that seem to be intended as humorous are quite the opposite. I find the very idea of making light of a serious issue to be offensive. Are we in 6th grade? This is exactly why many women feel so frustrated. The issue is not taken seriously by many academics because it is inconvenient and does not have an easy solution. Women do not need easy jobs & easy money. They need male academics to stop dismissing their concerns because they are not shared.
— aml Jun 19, 02:43 PM #
With all the problems facing this country, we cannot afford to arbitrarily dismiss people with brains, enthusuasm, committment, & drive based solely on gender. The future for my children & grandchildren is too important to be placed solely in the hands of short-sighted neanderthals who feel threatened by a talented, intelligent woman.
— 1 who remembers Jun 19, 02:56 PM #
How many of the male respondents have been asked by a colleague to A, make coffee; B, make copies; C, make social arrangements; or D, take notes at a meeting?
And the women??
I have received ALL of the above requests. Male colleagues do not have to be blatantly rude or dismissive to send the signal that female colleagues are undervalued. Although many are willing to go that extra mile.
There is still work to be done in equal treatment of women faculty.
— Catalin Dunnett Jun 19, 03:44 PM #
You could tell them to make their own damn coffee. They’re scientists, they can figure it out.
— Cynthia Jun 19, 04:25 PM #
I hope that women react to the sexist comments posted in response to this chilling report in one of two ways. Either they pity and ignore these bored, talentless young men who scour the Internet for opportunities for (incredibly unclever) harassment, or they rush toward careers in the sciences out of sheer indignation. I don’t expect this level of heroism from anyone, but I certainly applaud it.
— Ryan Jun 19, 04:49 PM #
It would be nice if you began posting the IP address of the commentator, along with the name, time stamp and comment.
I know you’ve got to be collecting them.
Might cut down on the sh*t-stirrers.
— Geek Woman Jun 19, 05:27 PM #
Here’s some insight from a woman who’s worked at multiple college computer labs: in all cases, male directors assigned “housekeeping” tasks: inventory, making labels + signs, organizing files, etc to women while men were given tasks which gave them opportunities to learn server maintenance, software development, networking, etc. Servers are usually kept in locked closets where men huddle together and teach each other stuff, and a woman is not clearly not welcomed – in some cases because men fear being accused of sexual harassment but in other cases because of territorial issues. When having to climb under/over desks to install peripherals, etc, I am quite often met with comments or smirks, or expressions of surprise that I’m willing to do that type of work. One manager refused to let female employees carry monitors even though they were not that heavy because he felt it was men’s work – only furthering the us vs them mentality. Despite a tech degree, I am repeatedly advised: you wouldn’t be interested in this project – it’s too technical. When troubleshooting, a male colleague is invariably called over, and suggests virtually the same steps I have tried, yet his answers are considered authoritative. Lots of little examples – nothing to sue over but always in the way of feeling like your contributions are valued. It can be exhausting to constantly have to assert yourself and prove yourself… I can see how people lose interest and switch fields.
— Me Jun 19, 05:30 PM #
Thanks to all the men here who have objected to the comments posted by their dimwitted brothers! You thoughtful, delightful men — you Als and Johns and Ryans and others — working in conversation and partnership with women — you are the ones who will help us change all this once and for all! Good for you! And to my sisters out there — especially the young ones who may well have thought that we middle-aged feminists were just whining — good for you too, and hang in! Surely we human beings can move forward — so frustratingly slowly, for sure, but we can. We will. Onward, all of you!
— Sue TR Jun 19, 05:34 PM #
I worked in high tech for ten years and though I did run into patronizing, sexist men, there were an equal number of very encouraging men who were very pleased to help me learn a variety of technologies – they were both helpful and fun to work with! The people in high tech weren’t the problem. Male “Geeks” are mostly a good bunch, less sexist in my experience than bankers or even professors!
But, the realities of jobs in high tech = lots of 90-hour-work-weeks, which can be hard for anyone to keep up for long. There’s a lot of male and female burnout to witness in high tech. Lots of stress-related health problems, and high tech companies are happy to replace those burned-out folks with younger people dying to work 90 hours a week, you know?
— Jeannine H G Jun 19, 07:09 PM #
Science is a self-regulated profession — our tenure is based primarily on our scholarly work, the value of which is judged by our peers. To permit a population of individuals that may have different work ethics, priorities or expectations threatens “the establishment” and de-emphasizes the characteristics that have been selected for in the “man’s world of science”, namely the willingness to put in overly long hours at the sacrifice of home life, be aggressive, possessive and relentless.
My classes in biology typically consist of more than 50% women, who are often more bright, more curious, and more intellectual students, and I would be happy to work in the world they live in.
Oh, by the way, i’m a guy.
— Todd W Jun 20, 07:33 AM #
Being an american woman in science (PhD student), in Germany (sorry folks, Nazi Germany is long gone); I am most disturbed by the existence/nature of these comments; kind of like, let’s discuss whether global warming exists or not, until we completely die out! Grow up people! I am continually ashamed, here in Europe, to have to admit to being American. World War II is over, and we aren’t the heros anymore….when are we going to wake up and start trying to solve problems, instead of bickering amongst ourselves?
— usm Jun 20, 08:22 AM #
Todd, this is just the point: until relatively recently, women were actively excluded from Science, and it was thus allowed to develop along warped and biased lines. Now that we know that women are not stupid, and can actually do science too, the profession needs to be renegotiated to be more inclusive. This will not mean a drop in standards, but a CHANGE in standards. Are men perhaps risk averse here, or threatened by their own lack of adaptability to new ways of doing things? Science does not regulate itself – PEOPLE do, male academics, holding onto a power base that will ensure their own future. By keeping women out of Science, science is denied the opportunity to develop in new ways. You sound as though scholarly work is something only men of Science do. This is dangerous, and illustrates your own conditioning.
— corinne knowles Jun 20, 09:41 AM #
Isn’t the tree related to the planted seed?
Isn’t it the nurturing, coupled with prevailing environment during the early growth phases —- the fundamental foundational issue?
Shouldn’t we collectively be focused on how the foundations are being laid —- and direct our “primary energies” towards the same?
In my opine, the issues/problems alluded to —- need addressing at a far earlier juncture —- observing one’s parents, where one parent (generally the female) is in a non-decision making/follower role vis-a-vis the other creates/reinforces and develops behavioral attitudes per se. —- which in general only get augmented as the years go by —- and, the corrections/remedies sought latter on in life prove a lot more challenging.
My father was fond of stating: “If two men ride a horse, one must ride behind.”
My mother (who by the way did her M.D. in the 1930s), would always add: “that does not mean that the same man must always ride behind, nor it mean that riders must be male, they could both be females, or they could be a male and a female.
Apropos, as a male, I find it hard to even configure that a female is in any manner, shape, or form not at par with the male in terms of mental abilities —- maybe this has a lot to do with having a mother who was a practicing M.D. —- growing up in an environment, where each parent viewed the other as the brighter one —- and, decision-making was not the prerogative of one and one alone (though on occasions each one of my parents exercised a veto over the other on major issues —- inclusive of career related ones)
The above mental parity between the sexes —- does not alter the fact that not all men and women are the same in terms of mental capacities —- both sexes are also well-endowed in terms of idiots and geniuses.
— zahid Jun 20, 10:11 AM #
Interesting! The war of the sexes isn’t over… but it does seem to have moved into a new phase. That is probably a good thing in the long run.
— s.r. Jun 20, 01:44 PM #
I agree with addressing the macho environment, but we must also begin to address the opposite hostile environment as it exists in the social sciences. This is not a one way street- and lack of concern about men entering university/college in social science fields also needs to be addressed with equal fervor.
— hhgonzo Jun 20, 03:18 PM #
#48 – addressed? probably, with equal fervor? no way!
the problems facing women in attempting to advance in the sciences & technical fields are FAR greater than those facing any males in any field
— Gary Jun 20, 03:52 PM #
My husband’s an NIH-funded researcher. Our very smart daughter is heading for colllege as a Bio/ neuroscience major. These comments make me worry that she’s going to have to put up with a lot of prejudice from men who are old and set in their ways. The younger dudes are the ones who are stunned at the older men’s attitudes- but the younger dudes who don’t underestimate women by reflex are not in charge yet, along with their female cohort. Maybe our daughter should re-think her plans. Your loss, older dudes, if she does. The Nobels will go to the Chinese women researchers because the 50% of the US population (women) who might have won them will be doing something else.
— Chris Jun 25, 10:28 AM #
>A new Harvard Business Review paper argues that women leave science and technology careers in droves because of “hostile macho cultures” and risk-taking incentives, among other reasons. >The paper, produced by the Center for Work-Life Policy, found that more than half of women who enter science, engineering, and technology careers drop out. The paper’s authors identified several “antigens” in corporate sci/tech cultures that force women out: macho work environments, feelings of isolation or career stagnation, cultures that encourage risk-taking, and time-intensive positions that compromise family responsibilities. The study also analyzes 13 company initiatives that try to combat these pressures.
— web design Jun 25, 12:10 PM #
I am a PhD student in engineering, and have certainly encountered sexism along the way, which was generally hushed after setting the curve on the first exam. Don’t get me wrong, there are certainly some bad seeds out there, but in my experience most of them get over it if you prove yourself, albeit more than a man would have to.
I wonder how many of these problems come from the general social bubble that scientists have lived in for so long, but since they all lived in the same bubble, it was OK. Now that women want a new bubble, the old one no longer works.
— Tiffany Jun 25, 12:13 PM #
Ladies, remember the ant and the rubber tree plant. Don’t ever give in and never give up. So it’s a hostile environment, so what. Thrive in it. You can be annoyed, intimidated, etc. but the men only succeed if they get you to quit. Don’t do it.
— rrm Jun 25, 02:00 PM #
If these women paid more attention to their appearance, kept the weight down and listened to men more often, more opportunities would be made available to them.
— Tom Cruise Jun 25, 02:00 PM #
Look, the tenure track process is harsh and demanding and honestly, how a woman can do it while juggling other life priorities like, say, childbirth is difficult to answer. But that does not change the fact that success in science requires endless effort, because you are competing with some really smart people who will put in their hours, and then some. If you cannot make it to the standards established by the peer reviewed publication/grant application process, then you will drop through the cracks: regardless of your gender or skin colour.
I am not sure what some comments meant by ‘changing the standards of science’. Data is data. Hard work is hard work. And reproducible, relevant results are just that! So please explain what these ‘changing standards’ is meant to be.
In the end, I have had the privilege of working side by side with some of the most capable female researchers ever who have competed equally and never has there been any spirit of exclusion or inequality. Oh, and by the way, I am a bloke.
— 149 Jun 25, 02:57 PM #
I’ve noticed sexism, but mostly going against men.
I once overheard a couple of (foreign) professors talking, and they said “even if we need a woman, why don’t we wait for a good one?” Later on, I discovered which woman was promoted (to tenure). By the time I got my Ph.D., I had more publications than her.
Another time, the graduate direction mistakenly revealed (by sending out an email to the wrong mailing list) that he accepted EVERY woman who applied. This policy probably explains why women have a 80% qual failure rate (compared to men’s 10%).
— Anonymous Postdoc Jun 25, 03:03 PM #
There is chonic rampant descrimination in academia (tenure track postions). It’s a problem that is actively ignored. This is a fact like evolution. This is readily seen by reading the comment. Something needs to be done. What are we going to do about it?
— bob Jun 25, 04:41 PM #
I correctly guessed what the report would say before reading the article.
There are an awful lot of highly strung female sexists (or to give them their proper term – feminists), out there who are always looking to blame men for their own failings …
— Anonymous Jun 25, 06:04 PM #
#58, you’re very much oversimplifying. While there are still sexist attitudes towards women, and you’re really showing yourself as a a man with a bad attitude or severe short-sightedness, that’s not the only problem. As a woman, you’re generally forced to decide between career or family. Not to say a woman can’t have a career in science and have a family; but one of the two will be lacking. I’m not saying this is necessarily men’s fault. It’s unfortunate and frustrating for women with a passion for what they do and a desire to have a life outside the lab. Every female scientist I know in a higher position essentially has no personal life. It’s a choice women face that, I’d bet, 99% of men never think of. So, make fun of feminists, but it doesn’t change reality. For the record, I’m a female science graduate student who has worked with some of the most intelligent (and I mean brilliant), understanding, and supportive men on the planet. I’ve known some real scum-bags too. Just remember, before you bash women as whiners, it’s not as simple as a couple sentences on comment board. These are people’s lives you’re having a laugh at.
— mel Jun 25, 07:50 PM #
I (as a male) have not the impression that there exists a hostile environment against the women. I think our IT personnel is far more friendly and helpful to women than to men. However, if you are going to work in an IT environment, you will have to get used to the fact that computers aren’t friendly at all. They don’t formulate mistakes in a friendly manner. They don’t try and help you to solve a problem. When a program fails, the only thing you get is a very cold message and it is very clear that it is your fault and your problem. Personally, I find such behavior compelling. A computer should do whatever I tell it to do. Period. And I consider it a challenge to get the problem fixed. However, I have the impression that not everybody experiences it that way.
— ignatus Jun 25, 08:13 PM #
How much does societies view of men affect this? Are men overly compensating at work because they subconsciously feel less manly at home?
“It is them, rather than us who should stay in the kitchen” – Regardless of how you support your argument, you are no different in your actions.
— Chris Jun 25, 08:58 PM #
I’m a Phd female engineer with experience supervising union employees in manufacturing currently working in academe. i’m 51 and i’ve learned a few thiings about sexism and how to handle men and still get the promotions and the jobs I want.
1) let men say what they want…remember them for their character failings…use this against them..ie let them underestimate you and then come in from left field with a great report or answer and anihilate the competition..be ready and be prepared..it happens quickly..if you dont’ take them out though, they will get you back..be ready if you don’t completely get rid of them with the first try.
2) Make sure you clearly take credit for your work..record what you do, report it regularly. don’t whine or complain if you forget and someone takes credit for your work. congratulate them openly..theyknow they stole your work..and they will know you know and they will be afraid.
3) Ask for the job. Ask repeatedly, don’t take no dont get made don’t whine.. be confident and assured, with your regular reports proving your accomplishments they will not be able to justify not getting the position to you…there’s always the courts..if you have documentation you have them in a bind.
4) Look for the just guys. Not all men are pigs..just the ones that are can make you miserable IF YOU LET THEM>>>
Work honestly and hard and know that what you do is worthwhile. Don’t seek external validation. men don’t…you shouldn’t either…it’s still their world. Get tough, grow some hard callouses and grit your teeth. Don’t explode or get angry..that’s a sign of weakness. Keep your dignity at all times
5) if you can’t get what you want, get your resume in shape and go job hunting. Be confident in your successes and tell them what you can do. Don’t listen to anyone who says you aren’t good enough..that’s seeking external validation again. You have to know what you can do and then capitalize on it.
6) Ask for everything up front in the new job. if you don’t ask then you’re unlikely to get it later.
7) don’t seek petty revenge. Men don’t..take your time. If you have to have revenge make it happen when the victim knows its you but others cannot pinpoint you as the culprit…i don’t mean stupid things like screwing with his chair either…I mean, if he has a mistake in his presentation and you’re the only one that notes it…don’t tell him…He’ll know you reviewd his presentation for him and didn’t tell him..he’ll know cause you’re that good and you would never let that happen…he’ll be cautious of you next time.
8) Be loyal..even when you think the person you’ve pledged loyalty to is screwing up..that’s the military way. men do this..that’s how they support each other. if you are seen as doing this then you are in the “club” and the benefits begin to arrive.
Thsi can be for a female as well.
9) learn mens rules. Play them. Play womens’ rules too. be unexpected and clever. if a guy opens a door for you, say thank you. then open a door for him.
If you’re asked to make coffee, say sure! if you are unhappy about it, bring only black or cold coffee, confess to being inept at coffee. they won’t ask again…OR next time , ask him to bring you coffee before he can ask you.
10) have fun. If you aren’t amused by the silly shit and the game of it…then get out by all means. i fyou are angry all the time and frustrated cause the men aren’t playing fair.. quit. They don’t play fair. they play by the rules. Learn the rules. if you want everyone to be nice int eh sandbox, then go play in the sandbox.. but don’t expect that in the work place.
11) Some men will support you and help you. Appreciate them. Let the pigs see you appreciating them not with flirting or feminine stuff…help their career, do them favors like bring them a free idea that makes them look really good.
12) Wear conservative clothes but don’t dress like a man. You aren’t so don’t try to be. have something that identifies you as a woman in every outfit….high heels, gold watch, lace..whatever it is so you are in touch with you.
12) Trust that things will be okay for you. Even when the asshole tells you that you aren’t smart enough to do something…just smile nicely and say…well darn it, I thought SURE i was…the president told me I could do this just yesterday! yep it’s a lie, but he won’t know it and he’ll worry.
13) make friends with the secretaries and admins…they are your friends they know the secrets and you can talk to them like gusy cannot..they can be your lifeline and your best “in” to the real stuff going on. Take them to lunch…give them flowers on admin days…remember them at christmas…let them in on your personal life a bit. dish with them a bit.
You can’t be their peer but you can be a friend and this can save you.
14) stop feeling gulty. Take charge of your life, order it now. kids should know that mommy has a career and respect that. it’s not a #2 job. Husband should be happy to have a successful wife..if not, why are you still with him?
company should know you are a family person, carve out room for that in your job. Put your fences and bridges up for yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.
15) teach your daughters the rules. don’t tell them fairytales and nothing else. Assure them that they don’t need to be rescued, that they can handle life alone or married…both are okay. Teach her to respect herself and her abilities. Encourage her to do well in math and english…praise her for all her successes.
it’s a game ladies…stop trying to make it make sense and follow YOUR rules. When women are in charge we can make the rules, until then…see above.
I’m successful and I’ve learned these things by making mistakes, being angry, feeling stupid having my data stolen, missing out, not asking, trying to be a guy, all the mistakes. You don’t have to be a feminist. You don’t have to seek laws to help you although the ones we have do help some.
You have to know that you are good at what you do and ignore the pigs…they are always there. change your framing of the problem and take ownership in the solution is the only way to succeed. Stop expecting others to clear your path. That’s childish.
Yep it’s hard. that’s why it’s called work.
And, no I’m not a lesbian, I’m a full blooded heterosexual, liberal open minded and truly loving the sport of my career..even with the pigs..I know the rules and they think I don’t…poor things, its so unfair!
treebie
— treebie Jun 27, 01:36 PM #
Treebie,
I appreciate what you said. It’s insightful, to the point, and puts us (women) back in the driver’s seat where we belong. I think it’s interesting that no one has posted anything since yours.
~ Linda
— Linda Jul 7, 06:58 PM #
Treebie, that was an awesome post. I may include a link to it on my blog. Hope that’s okay! :)
— Samia Jul 9, 10:27 AM #
Having been brought up in a family where both parents were equals in working outside and inside the home, I was oblivious to sexism until I took my first job after college. I am an attractive engineer, who is a positive thinker, and I consider myself innovative. I always had a different perspective on how to approach a problem than my male counterparts. I never listened to their condescending tones, I only strive to solve tough problems “my way” because success is the best form of revenge. After becoming a significant contributor in my departments, I was put on the forefront of projects more often. I have been sexually harrassed, I have been stalked by security guards at my workplace, I have been belittled with “on the rag” comments if I remotely sounded passionate about a topic (viewed as emotional), and I have received salaries significantly less than my male counterparts that produced less. What I have found helpful is to become the most valuable team member the company has ever seen and springboard off of the positive internal reviews and applied journal articles. I never let the “old boys network” intimidate me or limit me in what I choose to accomplish. If I do, then they win. I encourage women in my field as much as I can. I nominate women for high positions in my professional societies. I also have a husband that didn’t understand that he was an “equal” partner at first in terms of raising a family. Time management with children’s schedules is NOT my sole responsibility, it is a shared responsibility. This way, for both of our workplaces, we can still contribute and be valuable assets to our employers, and I am not limited because I am a mother.
Sexism in the sciences is a reality and can be difficult to deal with, but it is like a puzzle that needs to be solved. Each individual needs to find the best way that they can to work through these issues. There are no shortcuts or easy paths. Finding success for yourself as a female scientist/engineer takes effort, but when you have successes there are no better feelings in the world.
— Optix Jul 18, 12:00 PM #