September 22, 2006
Taking a Hard Line on Turnitin
When students’ papers are submitted to Turnitin, the widely used online plagiarism-detection service, they become part of a database against which all future submissions are checked. That database makes Turnitin an effective tool—but it has also raised concerns among students whose papers are going in the company’s permanent file.
At McLean High School, in Virginia, students collected more than 1,100 signatures on a petition opposing mandatory use of the service, according The Washington Post. The anti-Turnitin faction argues that the database violates students’ intellectual-property rights. And the high school’s use of Turnitin creates the sense that students are guilty until proved innocent, says Ben Donovan, a senior at McLean. "It’s like if you searched every car in the parking lot or drug-tested every student," he says.
Officials with the high school and with Turnitin say the company is careful to respect students’ intellectual-property rights. —Brock Read
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Not at all like searching a vehicle, more like scanning for viruses evry time I received an e-mail.
— Peggy DeStefano Sep 22, 05:10 PM #
I believe the analogy concerning the searching of cars or drug testing is an accurate one. While there is a legitimate argument for proactive efforts to deter plagarism, I must question the methods employed in this school. I must disagree with Mrs. DeStefano. A virus isn’t owned by anyone, whereas a paper is owned by the student. It is a clear violation of the student’s intellectual property to use it in a manner in consistent with the purpose it was initially graded; namely the distribution to another company or individual to be copied and then regularly used for comparison to thousands, millions of other papers…the implications for such repeatative and blatant infringement is significant.
— Michael Johsnon Jr Sep 22, 10:56 PM #
As long as the company is not employing the ideas conveyed by the students in their papers, it is not violating their intellectual property rights. Besides, the intellectual property rights of minors are much murkier than Mr. Johnson portrays them. Even more, intellectual property rights are much lower on the scale of rights than say, the right to not be randomly searched upon one’s body. And even those “rights” are not sacrosanct. Why? Because rights connote duties on the flip-side, and minors are perceived not to posess the necessary capacities (in general) to exercise these duties. Therefore, they do not hold the same rights as adults. Look at it this way: the prevention of plagarism is actually meant to reward honest students. If the atmosphere is such that plagarism is rampant, then the honest students are never fully rewarded for their efforts.
— chris keegan Sep 24, 05:36 PM #
a) a better analogy is all of us being screened at the airports; b) the intellectual property of students is actually being protected from a plagiarist using a good paper as his/her own work.
— Moe Khan Sep 25, 01:45 AM #
I have no problem with Turnitin.com. I also avidly work to avoid plagiarism in my writing. I guess I am of the mind that if one does not plagiarize, one has nothing to fear…just like those that don’t use drugs have nothing to fear from being checked…as long as the check is done within the limits of due process. The intellectual property argument is wholly flawed, since the subject matter of the paper is not being reused. Turnitin.com deals only with words and phrases in a logarithmic way, checking for any repeated patterns. Intellectual property concerns itself with content. Clearly, the students that spearheaded this petition are concerned with the originality of their own work. Attacking an innovative idea like turnitin.com is tantamount to advocating the dissolution of anti-cheating methods in testing situations. That is what Turnitin.com is, an anti-cheating tool—nothing more, nothing less.
— C. A. Hill Sep 25, 03:19 AM #
Both Chris Keegan and C.A. Hill seriously misunderstand the intellectual property right in question here. That right is copyright, which clearly does protect the expression of ideas—the words and phrases in a student paper—but not the ideas themselves. People can not “own” ideas, but they do own rights in their creative expression. This is a fundamental principle of copyright law and it is the source of the problem with Turnitin. By making an unauthorized copy of the student’s protected expression, the program appears to violate one of the copyright owner’s exclusive rights. And there are, of course, other anti-plagiarism tools that do not do this, so rejecting Turnitin is not the same as “advocating the dissolution of anti-cheating methods.”
— K. Smith Sep 25, 08:35 AM #
Chris…your views on IP would certainly surprise the RIAA and MPAA. You can most certainly not “employ their ideas” and still commit copyright infringement. They are utilizing the students IP in order to further their own business goals…I’ve wondered for some time how long they’d get away with it.
— Jason Griffey Sep 25, 09:39 AM #
Yes, Turnitin stores a copy of students’ work, but it allows me to address a number of problems, such as
•unmarked changes within quotations;
•unfamiliarity with the functions of the ellipsis;
•failure to source nontext sources;
•missing page citations for direct quotes (particularly serial quotations); and
•indiscriminate use of direct quotation, rather than paraphrase.
It’s important to preserve a sense of proportion. Turnitin saves my time so I can better help students with difficult issues. It reliably distinguishes errors made in ignorance from wholesale borrowing. Students’ original work is not loaned out willy nilly to others, and others’ use of it is detected and noted.
Turnitin also forces instructors to show respect for students’ rights by using technology to back up intuition.
— PRH Sep 25, 11:01 AM #
Tunitin will only catch the laziest students that simply buy a paper or copy a website off of the Internet, but it does nothing to stop a student from using a thesaurus to change enough words to fool the software or to preclude someone from having another student write their paper for them. The best tool to catch cheating is instructor vigilance and not over-reliance on a software tool.
— Chuck Bohleke Sep 25, 11:13 AM #
Turnitin.com does not make a students’ paper available to other instructors without the permission of the original instructors; if students are concerned about intellectual property they should lobby for a rule forbidding their instructors from releasing their work to others.
Second, I agree that the best tool for catching plagiarism is instructor vigiallance (I catch more plagiarism than Turnitin.com does). On the other hand, students beleive me that Turnitin.com will catch them and they do not beleive me that I will catch them, so Turnitin.com has reduced plagiarism in my classes.
And finally, buying papers is not going to help these students in the end. See the recent NYTimes series on the futility of that exercise.
— ML Sep 25, 12:33 PM #
Mr. Bohleke’s comment that a faculty member’s best tool for detecting plagiarism is vigilance and not an over-reliance on a software program is correct, as far as it goes. However, it can be turned around and applied to students who fail to look beyond the click of a browser when doing something loosely referred to as “research” and “writing.”
It must be remembered that these types of programs were developed as a response to an existing problem. The solution then is don’t cheat and don’t tolerate and excuse those who do. Then the need for such faculty exercises and programs goes away.
A simple view, I know, but often simplicity is the best approach.
— Rod Sep 25, 03:28 PM #
Turnitin makes money using student papers in its database. Students should retain the right to all uses of their paper. Why can’t they simply be given the choice as to whether or not their paper is saved after scanning? It seems like a courtesy we’d extend to each other.
— d. stong Sep 26, 05:58 AM #
I agree.
— malik Sep 27, 11:12 AM #
Cheating is bad and yes i am asain.
— ka hung Sep 27, 11:15 AM #
cheating is awsome.
Turnitin makes money using student papers in its database. Students should retain the right to all uses of their paper. Why can’t they simply be given the choice as to whether or not their paper is saved after scanning? It seems like a courtesy we’d extend to each other. i just copied Rod’s comment. what are u going to do about it.
— Bin Laden Sep 27, 11:16 AM #
ok…whoever posted as me, that is wrong.
now back to the topic…
turnitin is ok, but the fact that they store what we wrote and, in a way, use it without our approval, thats something else
— Kahung Lai Sep 27, 11:22 AM #
This is a very complicated legal issue, it should be tried in court to see if it violates Intlectual Proprety Rights.
— Jeff Sep 27, 11:33 AM #
So as a student who actively works to avoid plagiarizing others work, I have to ask why schools that employ Turnitin don’t allow their students to use the program themselves? I would dearly love to be able to run my essays through the database before turning them in, because although I very conscientiously record the works I cite, I’m a little more worried about indavertently pilfering someone’s style of writing or something.
I agree with the comment above about being viewed as guilty until proven innocent. My college instructor warned us in a very angry way to avoid plagiarism, and even though I don’t plagiarize, I have to say I felt very demoralized by the whole lecture. (Not exactly a good start to our new academic relationship now is it?)
— Sandi Speers Oct 2, 06:31 AM #
>>Chris Keegan: Therefore, they do not hold the same rights as adults.
Untrue. Children have more rights and less liabilities. While a child can’t legally enter into a contract, that doesn’t mean he/she can be denied copyright to their own IP.
>>C. A. Hill: The intellectual property argument is wholly flawed, since the subject matter of the paper is not being reused.
So, you’re saying TurnItIn’s database can not and will not ever be hacked and the property therein violated?
My view is this. I have no problem with my paper being scanned against the contents of papers ALREADY in the database. But I should have the right to opt-out of having MY paper entered into the database to be scanned. Remember, this company is making a profit based on the contents of their database, namely, other people’s work. It may not technically be copyright infringement, but why should they make money on my work without paying me royalties?
— MGP Oct 4, 11:47 AM #
There are so many misuderstandings in this discussion that I do not know where to begin! I use turnitin.com with all my high school students. You do not understand how the service works! If every student submits to the service, it is like stepping through a metal detector: no one is presuming your guilt, they are trying to protect the innocent from the whackos. Turnitin.com allows you to let the students see the results, and my students love to see it. It will show 2% the same as this college student, 3% the same as a student at a prestigious prep school. Those are always quotations used in common, not plagiarism, and hearten my students as to the quality of their selections. I CANNOT see that student’s paper from the other school; I am only allowed to email the instructor for whom the essay was submitted, to ask for a copy. Anyone can see it is merely identical (and most often pertinent and well used) quotations. The fact that I allow my students to see the reports, and do a class on it early in the year, simply means they do not even try to plagiarize. The number of honest kids who are excited (and express it) about a level playing field is legion. The service does not “make a copy” to distribute, it only enters it in the database, which PROTECTS a student’s intellectual property. The primary usage is to check the essay against 5 billion or so internet sources. It means that no one could steal the essay without getting caught. The company makes their money by using a program to match text; it does not “copy” anything the way people are saying. The ONLY people who have anything to fear from this service are plagiarists. If turnitin were ever to “use” a paper from the database, they would be easily caught by their own system, and I expect with their resources would be sued (and lose) until they bled from their metaphoric ears. PLEASE!!! Everyone!!! Get the facts before you argue.
— Tom Keelan Oct 6, 11:19 AM #
I apologize for the missing “n” in misunderstanding. The text in the submission window is difficult for me to see. I type with enthusiasm, but poorly.
— Tom Keelan Oct 6, 11:28 AM #
Tom, you don’t have a clue about how the real world works. If my kid were in your class, I’d pull ‘em.
For all those interested, there will be a scathing article releasing soon about the inner workings of Turnitin and its tycoon owner, John Barrie. Believe me, when it releases, you’ll all find out about it.
— Michael Oct 7, 04:11 PM #
Tom, the Intellectual Property Caucus of the Conference on College Compositions and Communication has problems with plagiarism detection services like turnitin. Are they all plagiarists? My understanding is that the group is made up of college professors. They have drafted a position paper laying out many concerns about PDS’s like turnitin and I believe will be dicussing the draft at an annual conference in November for adoption. They list legal issues as well as an atomosphere of distrust that the use of these services create. Perhaps you’re the one that needs to get all the facts.
— Rose Oct 10, 04:52 PM #
Also, to Michael: John Barrie is so worried about the rebellion at McLean High School that he will be attending our PTA meeting next week (I am a board member of the school PTA). I would be interested in any of the information you’re alluding to. I think the parents at our excellent high school need to have all the facts before they back the administration on this new policy.
— Rose Oct 10, 05:06 PM #
It disturbs me greatly that the Tempe Union High School District is backing the use of turnitin for all grades at Desert Vista High School. I have requested the data that would support such a broad use of the program. I have raised the presumption of guilt question. I have asked what reasonable suspicion exists the my daughters are frauds in their writing? I have asked why they should be required to provide the raw material to a for profit business, absent any compensation. I have raised copyright questions. I have asked for due process policies. I have asked why the use of turnitin was not subject to public forum discussion prior to implementation. I have received no answers. Plagerism is not terrorism and to equate turnitin with airport security is to slide further down that slippery slope we are all on; the erosion of privacy and the protection of basic rights.
Michael, please post the source of thhe upcoming article.
— Scott Oct 10, 11:30 PM #
Just a reminder, the errors in my typing do not diminish the validity of my questions.
— Scott Oct 10, 11:40 PM #
Absolutely eye-opening article with tons of proof. I had no idea how much Turnitin violates students’ rights.
The Well-Known Secret about Turnitin.com
— Dan Oct 19, 07:35 AM #
Absolutely eye-opening article with tons of proof. I had no idea how much Turnitin violates students’ rights.
http://www.essayfraud.org/turnitin_john_barrie.html
— Dan Oct 19, 07:36 AM #
I have no desire to engage in personal attacks. This is an important issue, and in spite of the mean-spirited postings, I will try to answer the points.
I do live in the real world. I teach high-school seniors. I have used turnitin.com.
I NEVER want to catch a student plagiarizing. Ever. In the three years that I have used it at my present school, I have caught no one. That means my students are in the HABIT of not plagiarizing, and I feel better sending them to college that way.
By having EVERYONE post their papers, and allowing them to SEE the turnitin results, the students do not even try. I believe good kids get into time pressure, and with the ease of plagiarizing on the internet, are almost encouraged to do so in today’s multi-tasking world. The flip side of this is that I have asked them to be honest about any situation that would result in a late paper, and I must be reasonable about those situations.
You need to realize that turnitin.com can be used in another way. The teachers can simply submit any paper without the student’s knowledge, and check it that way. I have argued against such a method, which is designed to CATCH plagiarists. By having everyone submit, and having the students see the results, the point is to PREVENT, not punish.
Turnitin.com has been arrogant. I have sent them emails suggesting that they promote prevention over prosecution, and they do not answer. They DO charge too much; they CAN because their service works. Does anyone believe that if the service were non-profit, that it would be adequately maintained?
I hope the debate encourages more openness from the company, and perhaps more reasonable fees. If they EVER make inappropriate use of their database, I will contribute to the legal fund to sue them.
I hope you understand my position. I want to teach students, not arrest them. Students who resist the urge to shorcut, learn better. We should not dispose of a useful system because of a few flaws. We should use pressure to improve the system.
— Tom Keelan Oct 24, 10:20 AM #
The intellectual property issue is also an interesting one. Has anyone considered that having the paper in turnitin.com’s database only PROTECTS the student against any other use? Were anyone who submitted an essay there to have copied the student’s work unbeknownst to him/her, the plagiarist would be caught. I also believe the dated and named submission would be legally admissible evidence were the student to catch a professor making use of his/her ideas or words. The permanent record of prior authorship at turnitin.com would win the student’s case against misuse by the professor, affording students who submit a level of independent evidentiary protection that students have never had before.
— Tom Keelan Oct 24, 11:38 AM #
I agree with you Tom!!! I bet that you are a really good teacher and I hope that my kids can be in your class!!!
— Alex T Oct 24, 02:13 PM #
The argument that turnitin.com judges one as guilty until proven innocent is completely false. Turnitin.com clearly states in its privacy policy and copyright statement that the service does not TELL a teacher whether a student is guilty or innocent, but instead tells the teachers how much of a paper is text-matched with another paper. Turnitin.com states that all students are entitled to be awarded grades and awards based on achievement rather than plagiarism. As far as the Intellectual Property Rights Clause, the site states that it complies with all relevant laws of the countries it is used in. Also, John Barrie, founder of Turnitin, states that, “Most students aren’t cheating.” Therefore, if most students are not cheating, they will not have anything to worry about in posting on turnitin.com. Please reference the link below to learn more about turnitin.com’s Copyright and Privacy Page.
http://www.turnitin.com/static/pdf/datasheet_ip.pdf
— Ryan Oct 24, 03:22 PM #
Does plagerism happen, yes. Do all kids plagerize, no. could any kid plagerize, yes. Therefore the need for turnitin.com. Okay, so some girls have sex after high school football games, yes. My daughters are high school students who attend high school football games, yes. So following the turnitin.com logic/mania, I as a parent of high school girls who attend high school football games should require that my daughters have gynocological exams before returning home after football games? Because, well, some girls DO have sex after football games…
— Scott Oct 25, 11:42 PM #
For all of the PROFESSORS who support Turnitin so vigorously, I suggest that you take the time to educate yourselves about the FACTS:
http://www.essayfraud.org/turnitin_john_barrie.html
— Dan Oct 26, 01:27 AM #
I’ve been following the Turnitin discussion loosely, particularly after the Rosenfeld case, and I whole-
heartedly agree with Tom Keelan. It’s obvious, or it should be, that while Turnitin does have problems (expense, as has been noted, is one of the biggies), it’s a great INSTRUCTIONAL tool. That’s what we do-we teach. We’re not CSI, we’re shepherds, guides, advocates.
I sympathize with the critics who say that Turnitin implies guilt on the part of the student, but this is only true if teachers are using Turnitin as the Gestapo might, to be secretive and sneaky in order catch students who have committed the unforgiveable crime of surrendering to the temptation to copy an idea or a useful passage. And, who among us hasn’t? Truth is, MOST students have not been properly instructed on how to AVOID plagiarism. Who is the real culpable party, student or teacher?
Bottom line: Turnitin is a safety net for students, not a dragnet for teachers.
— Steve Parlin Oct 26, 08:49 AM #
John Barrie attended our PTSA meeting at McLean High School two weeks ago and was bombarded with questions about the legality and morality of his service. He admits that he pays for non-student generated copyrighted material in the database, so why should student papers be treated any differently? It is quite clear that he is making a fortune by appropriating student papers for his database and not compensating students. It is not true that submitting student papers to the service actually protects students’ copyright interests — or at least it’s the height of hypocrisy to steal someone’s property in order to protect it. And yes, John Barrie comes off as arrogant in person. He kept saying that he wasn’t there to discuss the legal issues relating to turnitin, when it was very clear that was exactly what the parents and students were there to discuss. One only hopes that the courts catch up to him soon and put a stop to this business.
— Rose Nov 1, 04:44 PM #
“He admits that he pays for non-student generated copyrighted material in the database, so why should student papers be treated any differently?”
EXACTLY! And Barrie is incredibly arrogant, especially for a guy who rips off young people in order to use their own property against them (and fellow students), which brings him MILLIONS of dollars in undeserved revenue every year.
How can students around the United States get a CLASS ACTION started? Someone should create a class action Web site against Turnitin.com and gather thousands of signatures.
— Dan Nov 1, 05:46 PM #