August 21, 2008

Poll Finds Wide Support for Offering College Credit in High School

Nearly nine out of 10 Americans believe students should be allowed to earn college credit while still in high school, according to poll results being released today by Phi Delta Kappa International, an association of educators.

The survey, which was conducted by Phi Delta Kappa and the Gallup polling organization, also found that about six in 10 Americans agreed with the assertion that the senior year of high school is not academically productive for many students. When those who held such a view were asked to pick from a list of possible solutions to the problem, they were much more likely to favor letting high-school students take college-level classes than they were to say such students should be encouraged to graduate early or offered unpaid internships or opportunities to perform community service.

The poll respondents were fairly evenly split on whether high-school diplomas should be awarded for completing four years of high school or, instead, given to students who pass proficiency tests showing they had mastered academic skills.

About nine out of 10 respondents favored offering more federal or state financial aid to capable students who cannot afford college. They were less supportive, however, of school-district requirements that all high-school students complete a curriculum preparing them for a four-year college. Just over half said they would favor such a requirement in their own community, reflecting a slight decline in support for such requirements since Phi Delta Kappa and Gallup asked people about them two years ago.

The poll’s findings were based on 1,002 telephone interviews of adults conducted from mid-June to early July. The researchers said their results had a margin of error of three percentage points on questions asked of all respondents, and larger margins of error on questions asked of only of a subset. —Peter Schmidt

Comments

1. I live in a rural county in south-central Pennsylvania that is officially recognized as a part of the Appalachian region (in terms of economic development needs). We have no institution of post-secondary education in our county, and the educational attainment level of adults 25 years old and up is remarkably low—even for our region.

   Our efforts to develop a learning center affiliated with Penn State have not yet succeeded. Efforts to establish a regional community college do not seem to be making any progress.

   All we have at this point is a few courses in the local high schools that provide college-level credit through a community college campus in a neighboring county (that is actually a subsidiary of a Maryland community college). The State (PA) provides some support for such courses. As I understand it, the courses are taught by regular high school faculty who are qualified by holding masters degrees.

   There are a number of retired PhDs with college teaching experience who live in the county and would be interested in teaching college-level courses, but there seems to be no interest whatsoever in our doing so. I am a psychologist, and one of the courses typically taught is an introduction to psychology. I actually hold a lifetime credential to teach psychology in community college (from another state). In larger high schools, it is fairly common for there to be such a course as part of the high school curriculum.

   When I recently taught undergraduate psychology majors who had all had an introductory course, I was astonished at how little they knew about psychology. I hope the ones who take “college” courses from high school teachers in high schools are actually learning something. My guess is that the level of attainment is pretty uneven. Do others have experiences they can share regarding the value of such courses?

   — Joe Erwin    Aug 21, 08:27 AM    #

2. I’ve taught college courses to high school students in two very different settings. In Florida, I had to go to the high school. In Georgia, the high school students come to the college campus for their college-level classes. The second approach, in my experience, is far and away the better of the two. High school students (even seniors) who take college-level courses in their usual high school building simply continue to act like high school students (don’t read the assignments, expect to just memorize and then regurgitate information on the test). Also, I had to operate according to the high school’s policies and regulations (turning in a daily attendance report to the high school office, etc.) When high school students come onto a college campus to take college-level courses the one thing they most want NOT to be is recognized as high school students. They want to be taken for college students, and their behavior reflects this. Also, when high school students take courses on the college campus, their instructors usually don’t know they are high school students and not college freshmen. This means that instructors treat the high school students the same as all the rest. It is much the better system. I realize this is probably not what Mr. Erwin wants to hear since there is no college campus, as I understand his post, near his home.

   — Georgia    Aug 21, 09:21 AM    #

3. The news that a large percentage of those polled feel that the senior year may be unproductive is interesting — considering when you poll university faculty they are feeling more and more that students are simply not prepared. The poll results cited above, I think, are reflective that a college degree has become more and more of a social passport than a document reflecting an actual learning experience. Students know they need it for the job they want and want to find a way to have “the paper” more quickly. With college tuitions skyrocketing it is easy to see why some would want students to start earning college credit in high school — however, we need to consider if students really are ready.

   — babylawyer    Aug 21, 09:45 AM    #

4. I would speculate that the Masters degrees held by most of our high school teachers are M.S. Education specialties, not the substantive discipline. The same may be true for their undergraduate degrees.

   I once met a h.s. social studies teacher who said he could teach a college course in Criminal Justice if I gave him the introductory textbook. Hilarious! I decided instead to ask him to spell “arraignment” and describe the major features of this brief but critical stage of the criminal prosecution. Game over.

   — Peggy    Aug 21, 10:49 AM    #

5. Georgia (Comment #4). Thank you so much for your comment. It gives substance to the argument I made locally and to PSU officials that we needed to develop a college campus or “learning center” apart from the high schools. It was my guess or suspicion that high schoolers in high school facilities would act and learn like high schoolers. Even the 2nd and 3rd year undergrads at the little liberal arts college where I taught acted like high schoolers, with only a few exceptions—and they seemed very intent on getting their “ticket” while learning as little as possible. Amazing, while paying $27K per year in tuition! The attitude seemed to be that they were paying enough that they should not have to exert any effort. My other recent teaching experience was in a good (but inexpensive) state university. There the students were bright and anxious to learn. We had a fine time. In both places I stressed that the value of higher education is mostly based on the commitment and effort the student puts into it. My goal is always to help them “learn how to learn.” So, anyway, thank you, Georgia.

   — Joe Erwin    Aug 21, 11:11 AM    #

6. Of course students should be allowed to get SOME college credits in high school. That’s hardly any different from the already common practice of students taking pre-university exams for credit after “advanced” high school study; I received some university credit this way after taking AP Spanish in high school and taking an exam at one of the local universities. College is getting insanely expensive, and there are many students who never finish so much as an Associate degree (this is nothing new, by the way). The ability to get some college credit in high school may help increase the college graduation rate, especially since I know that many a high school student is intimidated by the mere thought of college…if they know they are already getting college credit for study completed during high school, then they might say to themselves, “I can do this!”

   Each student, somewhat independently of the quality of their formal secondary education experience, is uniquely ready (or not ready) for various aspects of freshman undergraduate study. A student with straight A’s from an academically deficient high school may or may not be ready for college, but the same goes for any high school grad from anywhere else. Being ready for college is, often times, a social measurement as much as it is academic. Can student X handle the sudden freedom and responsibility that often comes with beginning college? Has student Y been properly conditioned to continue to learn, rather than simply know enough to breeze through freshman year? There are hundreds of similar questions one could ask before making an educated guess as to a student’s level of readiness for college.

   A college degree certainly doesn’t seem to mean much these days, but that is more a measure of moving employment targets rather than college academics becoming more diluted, in my opinion. These days a college degree will often only get you what a high school diploma used to. Employers also play the game of demanding significant experience (sometimes treated as equivalent to college education), leaving many candidates wishing they had never incurred so much debt in student loans when they may have been able to start working directly after high school and would now have an equal (or even better, in some cases) chance of getting a job than college graduates.
   Many high school students are simply pressured into going to college before they are ready to figure out their career path. Not to mention, it’s ridiculous that there are so many jobs out there that require a college degree, yet they don’t pay you enough to help you make a dent in your student loans, while covering the other basics of insurance, food, transportation and shelter.

   Sorry for the tangents, but I feel that all of this is important…or I just need a vent for my own frustration. Basically, I agree that high school students should be able to earn some limited amount of college credit. However, they also need additional development to promote their interest and ability to learn, to live responsibly as an adult, and to truly understand themselves and where they want to go.

   PS – I, for one, am in favor of high school grads taking a year to travel and experience life BEFORE they begin college. The rat race of getting good grades in high school and rushing into college really undermines the ability of many young people to be successful in their lives. So much time and energy is wasted between senior year of high school and those first 60ish credits of college. I don’t think I am starting the trend here, but I think more students should opt for community or technical college, and then go to a university after some professional experience if they find that they really need at least a Bachelor’s degree for their particular situation and goals.

   — Messenger    Aug 21, 11:17 AM    #

7. #3 What is it again, that makes the second experience “better?” Is the better part found in the observation that the students “feel” like college students on college campuses? I suggest that the courses we’re discussing consist primarily of lower Baccalaureate level. Like it or not, instruments to measure proficiency in most of these subjects arguably already exist. One may choose to take CLEP, ACT-PEP, and other standardized tests to evaluate his or her knowledge and most all community colleges I’ve checked will grant credit for successfully completing those exams. I’m not suggesting that objective testing should replace college classroom experience. Neither am I suggesting that it demonstrates readiness to participate in college classrooms (#4). However, it certainly appears that it levels the field and mitigates most concerns of whether a given student possesses the minimum standard level of requisite subject matter knowledge at a given time. Thus answering the “social passport” concerns, as well as the concerns regarding the uneven output from school to school (which, I posit, differs between different colleges/universities, as well as from high school to high school).

   Oh and #5, do we really need to bring out the litany of literature and anecdotal evidence? These show time and time again that those who possess foundational skills in pedagogy and process facilitation, having to learn subject matter, nominally and consistently trump subject matter experts who lack these skills when it comes to knowledge acquisition of students in classes. You should have given him or her the book before you asked the question.

   — Virginia    Aug 21, 11:24 AM    #

8. Peggy: That is hilarious! The MS Ed is simply unacceptable on its own, as it provides little or no depth in the subject area. Our university requires the HS teachers to meet all qualifications as adjunct faculty, that is, at least 18 hours in the subject area AND the Masters.

   — Alabama    Aug 21, 11:29 AM    #

9. Sorry. Should have been more specific about this: the required 18 hours must be at the graduate level.

   — Alabama    Aug 21, 11:31 AM    #

10. Of course, people with teaching skills can teach almost anything they can actually teach better than people who have depth of knowledge but lack teaching skills. But, the point is that one needs both content and process. Teaching about something is pretty distinct from teaching how to actually do something—and this is especially important with regard to science. Teaching science as a process usually requires far more depth of experience than is conveyed by a few graduate credits. Teaching content? Well, that’s another story, but content without process is not even adequate for elementary science education, let alone high school or lower division college courses.

    Am I the only one who is suspicious that “college” in high school is probably often on (or less than) the level of what SHOULD be high school?

    BTW, I agree that people should stay out after high school and travel or work, maybe do a couple of years of military or public service, and THEN go to college. And, I think that going to a community college is a great way of saving money on college tuition. Also, going to public universities is worthwhile, since even the most expensive public universities cost less than half as much as the least expensive (and usually inferior) private schools. It is difficult to see how an undergraduate education that costs $200,000K is ten times better than one that costs $20,000K. Most of the variance is surely accounted for by student effort and talent, and, of course, some by quality of faculty, but there are many great scientists and scholars and teachers in public institutions.

    Now I will sound ancient, but I’m getting there, so what the hey….

    There was a time when greater competence was expected of high school graduates than is now expected of college graduates. One of the reasons some employers require successful work experience is that being able to hold a job may be a better predictor of competence than graduating from college. The degree may get you through the door, but you still have to perform the required work adequately. Many employers have been disappointed by college graduates who could not write, speak, or otherwise perform effectively. I emphasize to students that they must develop a set of marketable technical skills.

    — Joe Erwin    Aug 21, 12:55 PM    #

11. I think it would be great if we matured/modernized 11th- and 12th-grade education. I had a terrible attendance record in the latter years of HS because I was neither motivated nor stimulated by the fact that I could miss a week of school and still earn an A or B because the class had advanced by a few pages or (at most) a chapter in the text, even in AP courses. This reform is badly needed for those with the inclination to take up the opportunity.

    — D    Aug 21, 03:28 PM    #

12. High school students can earn college credit any time they want to. Online courses are available from a wide range of 2-year and 4-year schools, and can often be taken without admission to the institution. Distance ed isn’t for everyone, but for those students who ARE ready for college-level courses, the option exists today. WHY oh WHY do people think that all courses have to be taken in a classroom? Students don’t assume this anymore.

    — Al    Aug 21, 03:44 PM    #

13. Maybe the HS Seniors should take real high school courses instead of the middle school stuff that is routinely offered…

    — perplexed    Aug 21, 03:58 PM    #

14. I serve as the director of an honors program and have assisted my local school board in recommending college credit options for high school students. From my experience, the key element is that students need to be tested before the course to ensure they are ready for college-level work, then tested again at the end of the course to verify that they have met nationally normed criteria for college credit. I think that dual enrollment courses taught by high school teachers with a high school set of expectations and high school grading scales are a scam. I strongly prefer to see AP and IB work, or dual enrollment college course work completed in a college classroom.

    — Geoff    Aug 21, 04:34 PM    #

15. Rising numbers of students in developmental basic courses (writing, math,etc.) and increasing numbers of high school students taking college courses presumably without college placement testing. Who’s beating the system??

    — KJK    Aug 21, 05:52 PM    #

16. I thoroughly agree with the sterling points offered by Geoff, Joe Irwin, and Messenger.

    My question, almost addressed by KJK (#16), is this: Isn’t it strange that we would consider (to use an Internet analogy) downloading college level education responsibilities to the same high schools who are uploading junior and senior high school (or lower) remediation responsibilities to us? As an example we teach MTH 003, which consists of fractions, decimals, ratios, proportions, and similar knowledge/skills. How could such high schools, which hand out diplomas to students without these and other such fundamental skills, claim that their faculties should be dabbling in college instruction? These high schools, if they really want to preserve the value of their diplomas, would fail all of these students (I know, I know, it wouldn’t help their self-esteem, but the real world outside isn’t prepared to continue the charade – I know that too since I worked in industry for 7 years before I came to academia).

    While I am not totally opposed to high schools teaching college subjects (I took AP math – Calculus and Analytic Geometry- and received credit from the Educational Testing Service exam for MTH 216 and 217 and was thoroughly ready to go right into MTH 218 and receive an A, I didn’t go to one of the public schools of today – I went through a private boys high school.

    I must especially agree that many students would indeed benefit from a year or more of working, traveling, serving in the miliitary, Peace Corps, or Americorps or other broadening and maturing experiences.

    My compliments for a very insightful, thoughtful, and searching thread so far!!

    — ole Prof    Aug 21, 06:41 PM    #

17. I am intrigued by this discussion and it appears that I may have a unique point of view. I am a high school teacher who also teaches part time for the university (to actual college students) and the dual credit courses at the high school. I have taught AP, IB and dual credit, in addition to standard high school courses, and have taught for both public state institutions and private, liberal arts colleges. I have dealt with students who feel entitled to a good grade without putting forth any effort at both types of schools, the worst of which was a non-traditional student who was about 20 years my elder. I find that most of the comments with regards to the level of rigor for courses and student behavior, though they seem conflicting, are true. It depends on several factors, including the expectations of the university, the expectations of the school district, the proficiency level of the instructor and the ability of the teacher to TEACH. I have a Master’s degree in my content area (Chemistry), plus numerous additional hours (in things like food science and nuclear engineering, not education). I found little value in the pedagogical courses on how to teach, and feel that this was best learned through practical experiences. Most pre-service teachers do not get enough of this, as a large percentage of teacher’s change professions in their first 3 years of teaching (last I checked, it was a majority of teachers) because they do not feel prepared for the expectations of the job. There seems to be a spectrum of expectations from institutions of higher education for dual credit courses. I have worked with schools that set the pacing for the course, write and grade all of the exams, and administer the ACS exam for the final, with scores calculated with no differentiation between the HS and college students. I have also worked with colleges who have simply handed me a textbook and sent me on my way to do as I pleased. I have even sometimes had to struggle to obtain copies of syllabi used by the on campus instructors in an attempt to make my curriculum match that of the campus. In the school where I am currently teaching, the enrollment in my dual credit courses are growing, and not because it is easier than the college course. My students come back and talk about how prepared they were for their college courses and some have tested out of as many as 3 semesters of college chemistry, even at a science and technology school. There are differences between the way HS teachers and college instructors teach-there are also differences in the amount of time available with students, the level of accountability to students and/or parents and the community and the resources available. I will agree that in some schools, the senior year seems to not be challenging for students because there are so many electives allowed that they complete requirements the first three years and then coast-I can’t stand it. High schools are graded by the state on their dropout rates, among other factors, and this would skyrocket if we expected more required classes and less electives. I would love to see students required to pass proficiency exams prior to high school graduation, but the taxpaying public is generally disagreeable to this. Some students would benefit from a year of military, travel, community service or community college, but not all. Society places college as almost imperative, whether students are ready for it or not. I agree with the statement that HS students need to be tested prior to undertaking college level work, and I do this. My Dual Credit Chemistry students take the ACS exam and my Dual Credit Physics students take the FCI. Unfortunately, the screening can’t be done before they enroll in the course, but if I work fast enough, I can divert them into a more appropriate course selection at the beginning of the year. I also believe that expectations of HS students now are different than those of HS students historically, but not necessarily easier. In science courses, the knowledge has changed so dramatically, it is difficult to compare whether one was easier than the other. There are things that students used to learn that they now don’t, and vice versa. I do see a big difference in the social expectations between students now and students in the past. Basic manners, self discipline and hard work were much more important in education because they were more valued by society. Also, I have HS seniors who have problems with correct spelling and grammar, and the tradition is for the colleges to pass the blame down to the high schools, which pass it to the middle schools, which pass it to the elementary schools. The reality is that we all have to take responsibility for fundamentals at all ages, in all subject areas for students to learn it consistently. When my science students do writing assignments, I grade for spelling and grammar and the students always attempt to argue that I can’t grade for that because it is not English. My English skills are not perfect, but also not bad and how else can I help them learn it if they don’t have to practice it. I will say the public schools in my area are trending away from social promotion, primarily at the secondary level, but if we retain them at a younger age, they will be more successful the rest of the way through school. If they reach the high school after being repeatedly socially promoted and that practice stops, they are much more likely to drop out of school.

    — LM    Aug 21, 08:00 PM    #

18. I am the director of a very large concurrent enrollment program accredited by the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships (www.nacep.org). Concurrent enrollment is that special case of dual enrollment in which college courses are taught at the high schools to high school students, taught by their instructors who have been certified as adjunct faculty by the university. The standards require serious evidence of course comparaibility, including the use of the same grading scales and types of assessments used at the university. As one person commented above, the instructors must have content area expertise at the graduate level. This is not true of Advanced Placement teachers, who are now certified through an audit of their syllabus, and can in fact be teaching out of area. We have faculty liaisons who maintain close communication with our instructors through a variety of means, including site visits. Our instructors come to campus for professional development, and both they and our students enjoy all the technology benefits of faculty and students on campus. We hold an annual transition to college conferece and are committed to providing discussion across the chasm that too often looms between secondary and postsecondary faculty. Our June conference focused on areas of collaboration among NACEP (our type of program), AP, IB, and community college dual enrollment programs. Of course our program is not perfect, but we provide a well-structured, accountable, academically-focused opportunity for students in high school to gain college credit and knowledge about what a college experience truly is, while also providing a significant vehicle for collegial exchange.

    — Jill Thorne    Aug 25, 12:22 PM    #

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