June 25, 2008

ACLU Complains About Noon-Meal Prayers at Naval Academy

The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it had asked the U.S. Naval Academy to discontinue its longstanding requirement that all midshipmen attend prayers at the daily noon meal.

The ACLU’s complaint comes three years after the U.S. Air Force Academy established new guidelines on appropriate religious expression after Christian officials on its campus were accused of proselytizing.

In a letter sent to Naval Academy officials on May 2, Deborah A. Jeon, legal director for the ACLU of Maryland, argues that the academy’s practice violates students’ “religious freedom and rights of conscience,” according to an ACLU news release. A spokesman at the academy told The New York Times that the institution “does not intend to change its practice of offering midshipmen an opportunity for prayer or devotional thought during noon-meal announcements.”

In lodging its complaint, the ACLU drew on a 2003 ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit that supper prayers at the state-run Virginia Military Institute were unconstitutional. In a footnote in that ruling, however, the court wrote that its opinion did not “address whether, or to what extent, the military may incorporate religious practices into its ceremonies. The Virginia General Assembly, not the Department of Defense, controls VMI.” —Elyse Ashburn

Comments

1. The problem is not simply that religion permeates academy life to an excessive degree but that a particular type of religious extremism has taken over at the command level. In the long run this can only damage the service academies.

   — Lawrence S. Lerner    Jun 25, 03:55 PM    #

2. Just when I’m ready to support the ACLU, they decide an issue like this is really important. And they lose my support once again.

   — Mike Deville    Jun 25, 04:01 PM    #

3. If the prayers were of a faith other than your own, and if you were bullied and even physically attacked for not joining in, you might feel it was important, Mike. And it is my understanding that this has indeed happened, in some branches of the service, if not this one. It has certainly happened in schools and other government institutions.

   But even if it’s just a prayer, and the majority tolerates the minority … still! The arrogance of thinking that everybody wants and needs to hear your prayers! SW

   — swish    Jun 25, 04:10 PM    #

4. While I understand the reasons that prayers are offered at military events and meals, there clearly has been a tendency to force all those participating to take the “right” stand on religion. Swish is exactly right that this results in suppression (and possibly oppression) of those whose religious views don’t match those of their commanders. That is simply not acceptable.

   I figure that the great virtue of the ACLU is that they take a stand that offends everyone sooner or later – and they do it from principle. A stand like this (which will be objectionable with certain groups of “Right Thinkers”) just makes me admire them more.

   — Al    Jun 25, 04:27 PM    #

5. Stuff and nonsense regarding “religion permeates academy life to an excessive degree.” This is nothing more than the ongoing dumbing down of the country regarding religion in the public forum. This country was founded, its laws “permeates” with Judeo-Christian tenets throughout. This is what the US was and is, and the ACLU complaining about the US Naval Academy’s noon prayer just before the command “eat” is issued, is nothing but secular progressive gobble gook. I hope the US Naval Academy keeps it spine on this beautiful tradition. “It is this aspect of the academy’s mission that the Command Religious Program strives to fulfill: to foster spiritual growth and promote the moral development of the midshipmen within the tenants of their particular faith or beliefs,” says the Academy. Bowing heads in prayer at noon meal is a 155 year old tradition. Leave it alone ACLU.

   — Barry Moore    Jun 25, 04:27 PM    #

6. This country and military were founded on Christian beliefs. If you do not want to hear a prayer, then tune it out. No one is forcing anyone to pray. Sit there quietly if you do not want to pray. However, be grateful somehow that you are not starving!

   — Sandra    Jun 25, 04:38 PM    #

7. Secular progressivism with its goal of expunging religious expression from the public arena represents a belief system no different than any other “religion.” Until/unless people and organizations stand up to culture-Nazis like the ACLU, the civil rights of the majority of American citizens will continue to be trampled upon.

   — Smiley    Jun 25, 04:42 PM    #

8. I’m sure the ACLU is also rushing to get the call to prayer loudspeakers taken down at Gitmo, too. After all – we wouldn’t want to proselytize…

   — Bob    Jun 25, 04:49 PM    #

9. So, its freedom of religion as long as your in the minority?

   — otis    Jun 25, 04:49 PM    #

10. I ask my dad about this. He served in WW II. He said the there were chaplains, but the real religious types were considered pussies—mostly desk clerks, whom they referred to as “the ladies.” He said the military that beat the Nazis was mostly guys who talked about bullets, baseball and babes. Now the military is run by “the ladies” and its why we can’t win wars against 4th rate enemies.

    — Willie J.    Jun 25, 04:49 PM    #

11. I hope Mr. Moore is mistaken and not the Naval Academy, about promoting the “development of the midshipmen within the tenants of their particular faith” since religious faiths have tenets, not tenants. This is a common mistake my undergraduates make. I wouldn’t expect it from the Naval Academy, or any person of faith when we secular progressives know the difference.

    — Matt Hoffman    Jun 25, 04:52 PM    #

12. Contrary to often stated view by conservatives, this country was NOT founded on Christian belief. In fact, our founding fathers made sure that the nation remained secular by inserting the “separation of church and state” in the constituion.
    The Christian fundamentalists continue to test how much they can get away with because their devotion to Christianity supersedes their respect for the US Constituion.

    — Sam    Jun 25, 04:54 PM    #

13. The argument that this country was founded on religious belief, therefore we should allow the Naval Academy to require prayer at its ceremonies is logically flawed. It assumes, of course, that every principle the country was founded on was good, or is still relevant in the 21st century. Obviously this is wrong. The United States was founded under the principle that persons of African descent were only 2/3rd of a person, and that women could not vote. Clearly these views were wrong, and our constitutional process eventually corrected these false founding principles.

    One of the founding principles which was correct and is always in need of defense are the religious clauses of the 1st amendment. These state that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion….” The first amendment also includes the Free Exercise Clause, (”…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”). If a US government agency requires that all cadets engage in the prayer of a specific religion, then this violates the establishment clause. Conversely, if a given cadet wished to pray over his meal and was prevented by the Academy, then this would violate the free excercise clause. Based on what is being described here, an official prayer, within a specific religion, at the Naval Academy is what is occuring, so they are violating the Establishment Clause. No person should be forced to submit to someone else’s religious beliefs to serve their country.

    — Dr. Joseph L. Graves Jr.    Jun 25, 05:02 PM    #

14. [N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
    — Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)

    — TJ    Jun 25, 05:10 PM    #

15. Amen, Mike (#2), Barry (#5), Sandra (#6), and Smiley (#7)! By the way, Sam (#12), yes, my devotion to Christianity supercedes my respect for the US Constitution by far!!! We—the US—are fast approaching the point where those of us who profess Christian beliefs are the ones who face discrimination. Others may believe what they want. Please allow Christians the same. It will all be straigthened out “in the end!”

    — Doc B    Jun 25, 05:26 PM    #

16. Sandra, you need to read a factual history of the United States and of the military. Your sweeping statement of the Christian origins are not substantiated in fact. Many religious forefathers and foremothers of our nation would be outraged by your observation.

    — lef    Jun 25, 06:00 PM    #

17. Devotion to religion superceding respect for the Constitution? Folks, if you’re an American you need to look no further for your enemy. Religions follow religious leaders. Americans follow the Constitution. Constitution first, religion second. That is what makes America great. If your religion teaches you differently, you are an enemy combatant.

    — Tommy Hawley    Jun 25, 06:02 PM    #

18. Some commenters seem to have lost sight of a key fact: the midshipmen are required to attend these prayer sessions. That they are not required to participate is relevant but does not make the attendance requirement acceptable. The spokesman may call it “offering an opportunity”, but in reality it’s creating an obligation. Opportunities to pray should be plentiful in our public institutions, but this practice goes far beyond. The midshipmen should have the opportunity to not attend if they so prefer, and that is being denied to them.

    — CU Alum    Jun 25, 06:08 PM    #

19. What is right? Is is right that you should make the military stop a long-standing tradition to please a small minority of people who feel it is inappropriate? I don’t hear thousands of Naval cadets complaining or picketing. This is another example of how a small but loud minority is using the “law” to change what the majority of the population finds to be perfectly fine.

    — Joe B    Jun 25, 06:18 PM    #

20. I agree with Willie J. If our military is being run by a bunch of religious nuts, we’re in big trouble. I’ve always thought of religious guys as unmanly.

    — Lisa    Jun 25, 06:23 PM    #

21. I spent 22 years in the military. The military is not based on Christian beliefs. You would think that the academies would have figured out that proselytizing on the government’s dime is prohibited after the beatdown they received at the Air Force Academy.

    — DrMink    Jun 25, 06:31 PM    #

22. Tommy, Tommy, Tommy (#17), it’s people like you who concern me!!! I made it clear that my “Christianity” supercedes my respect for the US Constitution. (I make NO apologies for that.) You used the term “religion,” which is very generic. I will not allow you to misinterpret my statements. America is GREAT because it allows for diversity—in people, in perspectives, etc. Your statements suggest that you would take that away from anyone who doesn’t believe the way you do. So, will the REAL enemy combatant please stand up. (That’s your cue to stand, Tommy.)

    — Doc B    Jun 25, 06:36 PM    #

23. I admit it! I do not even pretend to understand the United States that the ACLU and so many participants in this discussion are trying to create. It certainly looks nothing like the nation I was born into. I attended the academy over 65 years ago. When I visited just 4 years ago the prayers I heard were more subdued and more general than in my days. During WW II we prayed and invoked the name of Jesus Christ – not so at the academy today. Jesus is taboo so they pray to God and I heard many prayers that appealed to the “Supreme Creator.” Of course all of this is more socially appropriate in a country that is growing less attached to the realities of its past. What this “religious extremism,” mentioned by Lawrence, might be I certainly don’t know. If the current status of prayer at the academy makes him feel uncomfortable the reality of prayer at the academy in 1942, and before, would send him into cardiac arrest. And what about that comment about “arrogance” made by Swish? Is there not arrogance in forcing people to divert from the way they have been doing things for 200+ years? Yes, I’ve heard the rant that “doing it 200+ years doesn’t make it right.” I think Dr. Graves makes that argument very clear. Well, it doesn’t make it wrong either. We’re not talking about 2/3s, or voting. It’s prayer! Prayer at the academy, as I saw it, isn’t being performed within the confines of any one religion. I don’t know of any of the major religions referring to God as the “Supreme Creator.” So obviously the intent here is to drive out vocal prayer period and make it silent. Oh, and at least I not forget TJ…you forget that Thomas Jefferson was a frequent public performer of prayer. Was he forcing his ideas on others when he prayed? Remember you have to look at the whole picture. Silencing public expression of prayer at the opening of Congress, the Supreme Court, or other public meetings was not their intent although some crazy modern thinking has led to that interpretation. I am now 88 years old and I gave a sizable portion of my life to secure this nation. It is my hope not to be around in the not too distant future when somebody at the ACLU tries to get the word “Creator” removed from the Declaration of Independence – it was an obvious mistake and not intended by the founders.

    — TW    Jun 25, 06:43 PM    #

24. I am absolutely shocked by some of the meanspirited comments made by some obviously anti- military bigots. How many of you have served in the military or have even been to any of the academies? I am a university professor who also happened to have served in the military and retired from the United States Air Force as an officer (Major) after 15 years of wonderful service. I went to the Gulf in the 90’s. The people I served with in those 15 years, leadership included represented all faiths, no faiths. NO ONE CARED!! Not once did I see anyone forced to worship against their will. The cadets at the Naval Academy are NOT forced to pray or recite anything remotely spiritual ; they merely need to be in place for a function that starts a meal. They can stand in silence, whistle “ I’m too Sexy for my…” in their heads, work out math problems etc… Only their attendance is required. It is similiar to young kids having to be in the classroom for the pledge but they do not have to say it aloud.
    I am tired of seeing people who nothing nothing about the military cast us as “ right wing religious zealots.” Several times I had to fightT for my right to attend church services when I was in the military because a few stupid bosses decided we had to work on Sundays and get ready for inspections. I told those who tried to stop me from going to church that it was my constiutional right to worship just as it was theirs not to, so I would file a Inspector General complaint against them. Guess what? I never had a problem. The US military has Islamic chaplains, Wiccans are allowed to practice their beliefs as well. How many large work force organizations do that for you? I hope the ACLU takes this to the Supreme Court. They will lose. By the way, when I was serving our military in Saudi Arabia, we had to adhere to the prayer times, American women had to wear the abaya. We could not wear crosses or Stars of David. The chaplains even had to remove their religious insignia. Our military required us to observe these traditions, even though some of us like me still wore our crosses. Why didn’t the ACLU fight for us then? Even though they could not fight the Saudis at least they could have sued the Department of Defense. One brave female Lt Colonel ( a Havard grad ) took on the abaya wearing issue. She sued the Department of Defense. The military is made up of people the mirror our society because we are an intregal part of society. Stop demonizing us and inferring that we are less intelligent than some who serve in academe. Unlike academe, the military is a meritocracy, enabling African American women like me to be able to serve and defend our rights.

    — Liz    Jun 25, 07:47 PM    #

25. My respect goes to Liz – and may I say the ACLU needs to be prosecuted as a terrorist hate group that can’t keep its frickin’ nose out of our institutions. ACLU – begone demon spawn.

    — Muap Conners    Jun 25, 08:17 PM    #

26. ACLU: Anti-Christian “Legal” Unit.

    — steve    Jun 25, 08:36 PM    #

27. Liz #24 – as someone who has served surely you recognize the tactical and strategic necessity of not pissing off the local population when you are stationed in THEIR country. The number one rule of successful COIN is to win over the local population so that they do not aid and abet the enemy. So of course you had to respect local customs. To do otherwise would have compromised the short term and long term effectiveness of the mission. Duh.
    BTW – My dad was a Col. in the Army. My uncle was a Col. in the Air force. My Grandfather served in the Navy in WWII. I qualify as an Army brat (born at an overseas posting no less). I am in no way anti-military. That said it really makes me angry to see people assert that their religious tradition and beliefs are the only ones. That is the effect of requiring prayer. Separation of church and state is a bedrock principle of this country and I applaud the ACLU for defending it. Remember the founding of this country – most of them were fleeing religious persecution at the hands of state sponsored, endorsed and obligatory religion.

    — j    Jun 25, 10:11 PM    #

28. Kill a commie for Christ, eh, boys?

    I can’t see Jesus of Nazareth teaching people how to kill more effectively. What a nice veneer a prayer is on the practice of becoming a professional murderer!

    Landrum Kelly
    http://www.philosophicalquestions.org

    — Landrum Kelly    Jun 25, 10:33 PM    #

29. ACLU? Aren’t these the same guys that want to take the crosses off the graves at Arlington?

    — Jester    Jun 25, 10:48 PM    #

30. First of all, Smiley, as I’m sure others have pointed out, this is not a spontaneous expression of religious feeling in public. Everyone is required to attend the lunch. There’s a difference.

    The biggest problem I see is that so many people think, “well, the majority of us believe in at least some sort of god, so we win,” to sum it up succinctly. But for those of us who do not believe in a god—and yes, we’re around, even if we’re too afraid to “come out”—feel more and more discriminated against in this society.

    Those who profess Christian beliefs face discrimination? In the US? Really? I bet you can tell your entire family you’re a Christian, and won’t be ostracized from them. I cannot tell most of my family, and even a number of my colleagues at a “liberal” university. And truthfully, it’s none of their business.

    I know many of you will think that this is not true. But few people I know, even in my family, know that I am an atheist (gasp!). I personally don’t give a rat’s butt about your prayers. But would it be possible for us to have a rational discussion about this issue?

    Yes, the US was founded on some principles of Judeo-Christian law, diluted after oh, say, 1700 years. Most of us are ok with that fact. But they were also rules/mores common in other, non-Judeo Christian sociieties. Please get your history straight before beating us to death with your “facts.”

    The bottom line is that the US Constitution, which IS the law of the land, requires the separation of church and state. Those of you who profess to be Americans & to love this country as much as you do…you should be supporting that, and the goals of the ACLU, whose work has allowed you to post on this forum without fear of retribution. It’s an organization that has a long history of fighting to support our civil rights, even if some of its views are not popular with the “majority.” I sleep better at night knowing that they exist.

    — Julia    Jun 26, 12:41 AM    #

31. I am a member of the ACLU, also a graduate of the Naval Academy, and a former faculty member there. As I suspect is true of most members of the ACLU, I agree with 90+ percent of what they do, and disagree with the balance. Knowing USNA as I do, this issue is one of those few in which the ACLU is misguided.

    The tradition of prayer before meals is handled exceptionally well at Annapolis. Having witnessed them for years, I can assure the readers that not only are they by and large non-denominational, they are also an excellent way to teach our future military leaders about respect for the devotional traditions of others even when they, personally, believe differently.

    The Brigade of Midshipmen is composed of young men and women whose religious beliefs span the entire spectrum of the society from which they are appointed. There is no pressure, peer or otherwise, to proselytize any to change their beliefs nor to join any religion. There IS pressure, as well there should be, to think deeply about such issues as whether there is a Supreme Being, and how they personally believe. Those leading prayers, or moments of silence, or a one-minute devotional, themselves come from divergent faiths, and offer an opportunity to show others what they themselves believe — without any sense that others’ beliefs (or non-beliefs) are wrong or even incorrect.

    Encouraging Midshipmen to think about issues, including not only religion but ethics and politics, is one of the most important aspects of training our future naval leaders. This tradition — as long as it is handled quietly and without pressure to conform or to convert, which has been the case that I have witnessed for many years — should continue. Indeed, it is an example that other similar institutions, such as the other Academies who have had difficulties facing these tough issues, would do well to emulate.

    I hope that in this particular instance, but in very few others, the ACLU ends up losing their case in court.

    — Scotty    Jun 26, 06:43 AM    #

32. As with so many issues, I find myself coming down on both sides of this issue. Several commenters have alluded to “separation of church and state” as being in the U.S. Constitution. NOT TRUE. This idea is one of the results of having our courts and media exchange what the Constitution says with what they would like it to say. On the other hand, as a life-long Christian I agree that this nation was not established as Christian (or any other religious belief). That is what several clauses in the Constitution and the 1st ammendment make plain.

    — FBM    Jun 26, 08:07 AM    #

33. This is just more of the ‘looney left’ wasting the valuable time of our legal system with more of their nonsense. The ones who filed this lawsuit should be fined or imprisoned or both for frivolous litigation.

    — NYMOM    Jun 26, 08:21 AM    #

34. It’s true that the Founding Fathers who drafted the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence drew on what they viewed as the best of preexisting human governments. It is also true that they set the government up in such a way that the the GOVERNMENT could not establish a religion. That said, the principles set forth in the Constitution and Declaration are firmly grounded in the belief in a creator, and that the rights they (and we) believe all humans have stem from that fact. (“We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men were endowed by their Creator…”)

    Why is this important? Because if these rights originate in a power higher than the Constitution, those rights can never lawfully be taken away by that document – or any other. It’s an astonishing bit of ignorance to worship the Constitution, without recognizing the deistic principles which make it so strong. Otherwise, it is just a piece of paper that any group of like-minded nutcases or ideologues can modify to take away the very rights people on this forum seem to prize so highly.

    — Ergum Soloff    Jun 26, 08:26 AM    #

35. Ergum, you can quote (or misquote, actually, you needed “…” instead of a semicolon for all the words you left out) the Declarartion all you want, but the truth is the basis for this country’s government is the Constitution, not the Declaration, and it makes no mention of “god’ or the divine AT ALL. Everyone here needs to read “The Godless Constituion” by Kramnick and Moore. Not only was the Constitution not based on “christian principles” , many of the christian citizens of the country condemned it for just that reason. Luckily, it passed anyway.

    — RKO    Jun 26, 08:54 AM    #

36. The real issue here is the intensifying effort of those who hate God to force their hatred on all Americans under the guise of what they call “freedom from……”

    I’m certain that recruits are well aware through the admissions process at the Naval Academy that this meal tradition is part of their daily routine. It would be helpful to know how many of these prospective Naval Officers have lodged complaints about this requirement when they apply.

    — Janis Cassiere    Jun 26, 09:40 AM    #

37. The choice to love God must be preserved. As a Father’s heart swells when his daughter freely chooses to love and kiss him before bed, our Father takes great joy in our freely choosing Him.
    At stake here is freedom to choose. If a body of people choose to pray, God is pleased. If, however, that choice is suppressed, and a degree of compliance is forced upon non-believers, well, I believe that potential for pure love is doused.

    Freedom – choice – must be preserved.

    — Rob    Jun 26, 09:43 AM    #

38. To #36 and 37 – ok- prayer this week will be led by a Muslim. Are you still in favor? I bet the answer is no because you are not really talking about God or a “Supreme Being” you are talking about upholding and enforcing the establishment of Christianity as the state religion.

    — j    Jun 26, 09:53 AM    #

39. Wrong #38. As Mother Teresa said…..“pray to God no matter what you know him as or call him….”(paraphrase)…..I don’t have time to look up the exact quote.

    Point clear?

    — Janis Cassiere    Jun 26, 09:56 AM    #

40. How about just a moment of silence at meals to remember all those that have died in an insane and senseless war started by a cretin and the evil bastards that surround him?

    — AW    Jun 26, 10:18 AM    #

41. Allowing space for personal meditation or prayer is fine by me but forcing a specific doctrine is absolutely unacceptable. Before I make an opinion about the ACLU’s position, I would like to know more about the noon prayers.

    To #33 – Your “loony left” comment only shows that you don’t stop to think for yourself.

    — Nathan (atheist and Air Force veteran)    Jun 26, 10:21 AM    #

42. Landrum Kelly-your pathetic attempts to draw people to your pointless web site are annoying. Your provocative comments are amateurish attempts at promoting yourself and web traffic. You are SPAM.

    — Snake    Jun 26, 10:28 AM    #

43. Many days I think God the Creator must look down upon this earth and say “What was I thinking when I created human beings??” Anyway, I guess none of us will know who was “right” and who was “wrong” until we take our last breath and slip into eternity. My faith and teachings say I must pray for everyone – even when it is most difficult to do so. That goes for praying for the ACLU……

    — GT    Jun 26, 11:06 AM    #

44. #6 said: “This country and military were founded on Christian beliefs. If you do not want to hear a prayer, then tune it out. No one is forcing anyone to pray. Sit there quietly if you do not want to pray.”

    The fact is that Christians have become absolutely obnoxious with this approach. I have a better idea. I think I’ll encourage everyone of every religion to voice their preferred prayer during the same time period, seeing as how we have free speech and by law, no religion is allowed to take precedence over another. I like that idea MUCH better.

    — Al    Jun 26, 11:07 AM    #

45. For those of us who are Christians, the growing attacks on our faith are not unexpected. Persecution of Christians is dramatically increasing around the world. It will likely get much worse than it is now, even in America. It’s quite a story, but not particularly frightening for Christians, because we skipped ahead and found out how things turn out in the end—all good for those who know and love the Lord.

    — Kel    Jun 26, 11:10 AM    #

46. I would dispute the assertion at #6 that this country and our military were founded on Christian beliefs. There were a lot of non-Christians who signed the Declaration of Independence. Deism was big at the time, for example. Although there is no denying that religion played a role in the shaping of this nation (and that a large number of Americans currently self-identify specifically as Christians), the bottom line is that the we are not a “Christian nation” — we are a country that at least purports to repsect an individual’s right to practice any number of faiths or none at all. Compulsory state-sponsored prayer is anethema to the first amendement. Christians need to understand that the same principle that allows them to freely practice their faith in the United States allows others to practice different faiths or none at all.

    — Atheist in a Foxhole    Jun 26, 11:33 AM    #

47. #45 — I love your style! The AcLu set has thrived on obfuscation and word bending. They have turned a band of brothers into the band of Losers. People who defend their faith are constantly branded as zealots — that’s the detritus the ACLU has given our country: splintered and fragmented. Divide and conquer. The evil one continues to permeate.

    — Douglas    Jun 26, 11:35 AM    #

48. Why can’t the midshipmen just pray on their own time? Why does it have to be part of their planned day?

    — University of Wisconsin grad    Jun 26, 11:51 AM    #

49. No Judeo-Christianity in the military. Listen to Nietzche. Religion makes you soft. You need to kill the enemy and his women and children with dispassionate, beastlike ferocity. Just like Dresden, just like Hiroshima, just like Hanoi on Christmas Eve.

    — Eric Sundersen    Jun 26, 12:14 PM    #

50. Note the way the Naval Academy spokesman misrepresents what is going on:
    “A spokesman at the academy told The New York Times that the institution “does not intend to change its practice of offering midshipmen an opportunity for prayer or devotional thought during noon-meal announcements.””

    No one saying that midshipmen shouldn’t have the opporunity to pray. The ACLU complaint is about organized prayers delivered to a a group of people who are required to be in attendance.

    If you can’t win the argument, then change the argument.

    — Folke Bernadotte    Jun 26, 12:18 PM    #

51. I am a Christian through and through. If someone asks me if I “believe” in God, I always respond that Jesus, and through him God, are my closest friends. I will share my religious beliefs with anyone who asks. That is why I am such a strong supporter of the separation of church and state. I would never want non-Christian beliefs to be forced down my throat. In fact, I wouldn’t stand for it, if it meant giving up my place at the Air Force Academy, or at my University. We can’t have it both ways; it’s no religion in “state” settings or the popular religion at the moment. Since I could not see myself sitting through Jewish or Muslim religious ceremonies on a daily basis, nor would I tolerate being forbidden to pray, I must, very regretfully, agree with the ACLU. But it hurts!

    — Martha    Jun 26, 12:23 PM    #

52. Thanks for the wise post, Martha. Evangelicals always fail to realize that separation of state actually protects religions, not hinders them.

    — Lisa    Jun 26, 01:29 PM    #

53. Yes, #49, listen to Nietzsche! His #1 fan was a harmless blip on the radar screen named Hitler. Aren’t we so BLESSED that Hitler thought Nietzsche was brilliant. Forward thinking peoples, take #49’s suggestion and pursue nihilism and a Godless existence. Your life will be overflowing with love and goodness that only Nietzsche himself can deliver. Bravo 49!!

    — Douglas    Jun 26, 01:34 PM    #

54. The ACLU gets it right sometimes, but in this case, it appears they missed again. There is nothing legally wrong with having a prayer/meditation time – those that attend can choose whether to participate or not. That is the point where freedom of religion comes in. Freedom OF religion not Freedom FROM religion. We have the right to choose. Wake up evangelicals!

    — conservative in education    Jun 26, 01:39 PM    #

55. It is disappointing that this audience fails to understand the “establishment clause” of the first amendment. The specific reference is to the “establishment” or state sponsorship and support of a particular religious denomination, such as the Church of England or other state churches in Europe. It was never intended to limit government encouragement of religious expression, the voice of religion in the public sphere, or even explicit connection between government and religion. The presence of chaplains in Congress (since 1789) and the military (since 1791) should make it clear that the Founding Fathers did not intend to exclude all contact between government and religion, although the use of chaplains from different faith traditions underscored that the government would not privilege one particular religious body over another.

    One may think that the lines need to be drawn more sharply today, perhaps because of the much greater religious diversity now than in the 18th century, but that sharper line is not present in the Constitution.

    — drj50    Jun 26, 01:39 PM    #

56. I fail to understand why some Christians believe that requiring attendance at prayers serves any good purpose.

    — perplexed    Jun 26, 02:09 PM    #

57. To drj50 (# 55)—the “establishment” clause is an important one that Christians should remember as well, because it also means that RELIGIONS themselves are free from state interference, and allows Churches to retain their tax-free status. This is a privilege that many religions and religious people do not have in Europe, for example. When Steffi Graf was in trouble for tax evasion years ago, it was because she had not paid her CHURCH taxes. But don’t forget the “free exercise” clause as well, which also today means the choice to not exercise religion, thankfully.

    But what the founders intended is completely irrelevant—or, well, maybe not completely. The fact is that the Constitution was written over 200 years ago, and none of us can claim to know what they were thinking, how they “would have” felt, any more than we can say what god is or is not thinking or feeling about a certain topic—oh, what arrogance. The founders wrote the Constitution to be a fluid document, amendable to reflect key issues of their time and ours. And that is why our Constitution has had such longevity.

    Trying to figure out what the founders may or may not have meant, or would or would not say/think/believe about our contemporary society is a GREAT way to distract people from the real issues that face us daily. Even the so-called “strict constructionists” engage in so much pontificating over what the founders meant that the debate itself is becoming meaningless…

    — Julia    Jun 26, 02:22 PM    #

58. The US is a Christian nation. This has been the light to the world. Get over it folks.

    — Nelson Focus    Jun 26, 03:27 PM    #

59. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s (i.e. government funded education, training). Render unto God what is God’s (free will, the right to pray or not to pray freely)

    — Rob    Jun 26, 04:19 PM    #

60. The US is a Jewish nation. Christianity is completely based on Judaism; its savior is Jewish. America is a Jewish nation, and that is why there is a Star of David on our money and our official seal. The Revolution was paid for by a Jew. It is a Jewish nation. Paul Revere is a Jewish name. Philadelphia is a holy city in Israel. Benjamin Franklin and Abe Lincoln look unmistakenly Jewish. The Bill of Rights were taken directly from The Settlement Cookbook. Apple pie was originally made from beets. George Washington’s great great grandfather was a medieval rabbi. Baseball is the yiddish word for clothesline. Like I said, America is a Jewish country.

    — John X.    Jun 26, 04:20 PM    #

61. Sorry, but the US is not a “Christian Nation”. Please read your history more closely.

    Slightly off the subject, it is unsettling to me that the military of one of the most technilogically advanced nations in the world is encouraging magical thinking. Come one, people DO know that gods don’t actually exist, right?

    — Nathan (atheist and Air Force veteran)    Jun 26, 04:33 PM    #

62. Nathan, I’ve been wondering that since I was a very little child, and I still don’t know the answer.

    Yes, it’s just like forcing children to recite the pledge. I remember holding my hand over my heart, mouthing the words “under God,” wondering if anyone out there was like me. I heard other voices when I was silent, so most of them must have spoken the words, but were they just pretending? Did the whole world really believe in fairy tales? Was I all alone?

    (By the way, my parents were believers. I had to pretend with them, too.)

    In post 58, Nelson says “Get over it folks.” Does he mean: convert? Go into hiding? Leave?

    Or be content to have our tax dollars support the dissemination of that which you believe is false and nonsensical (and perhaps sometimes at odds with your ethical beliefs)?

    Or perhaps it’s “The U.S. of A. is a Christian nation, and if you secular progressive Christian-hating liberal oppressors don’t like it, you can just gyett outt.”

    That’s another thing I wonder: can a group that has its own TV channels, national holidays, tax breaks, and 85-90% of the population actually believe they are oppressed? SW

    — Swish    Jun 26, 05:59 PM    #

63. If you don’t want to pray, but want to make a point, then abuse yourselves.

    — jon    Jun 26, 06:41 PM    #

64. I agree with 44 — if someone’s praying out loud, how about we let everyone in the room pray — or recite baseball scores if they wish — simultaneously?

    And, as other commentators have said, would you monotheists want to be required to listen to a polytheistic prayer? How about you Christians being required to listen to a Satanist’s? How about a Wiccan prayer? A druidic prayer? A Church of Elvis prayer? And all this in order to attend school in preparation for military service?

    — Megan    Jun 26, 10:16 PM    #

65. to #64: How many polythiests, or animists, or statanists are attending the US Naval Academy. Perhaps we should make a fuss about the fact that the such believers are not adequately represented.

    — jon    Jun 26, 11:21 PM    #

66. People who want to remove the separation of church and state always assume that it will be their church that benefits. Try paying taxes to support somebody else’s established church. . . . like the Church of England, which oddly enough a lot of Nonconformists didn’t enjoy supporting.

    It’s freedom of religion for those who want it and freedom from religion for those who want that.

    Thomas Jefferson said, “If my neighbor worships one god or twenty or none at all, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and by all means read your Nietzsche, and for the love of God (or whatever), learn to spell both.

    — dan    Jun 27, 08:11 AM    #

67. “It’s an astonishing bit of ignorance to worship the Constitution, without recognizing the deistic principles which make it so strong. Otherwise, it is just a piece of paper that any group of like-minded nutcases or ideologues can modify to take away the very rights people on this forum seem to prize so highly.”

    Amen!!!!

    — NYMOM    Jun 27, 08:29 AM    #

68. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
    — Thomas Jefferson (1819)

    You can see why.

    — TJ    Jun 27, 10:23 AM    #

69. Swish: (#62 and ?) you remind me of the character in “Animal House” who smokes the dope and wonders out loud what universes are trapped underneath his fingernails. So many questions from that big mind of yours — yet so few in the # of answers. Wonder why that is.

    — Douglas    Jun 27, 11:08 AM    #

70. I really like posting #67. I feel if we truly separated church from state, we would become weaker as a nation. I served in the US Navy honorably for 21 years and can assure you I am not at all a religious man, yet I enjoyed the “evening prayers” that were broadcasted throughout the ship every night at sea before taps. I welcomed the chaplain’s ramblings as a minute of peace and self-reflection. My view is that prayer is either meaningful to the faithful and thus deserves to be respected, or as in my case, it is inconsequential and inoffensive. Why would I complain or make an argument against a ritual that was so important to my shipmates and totally harmless to me?

    — Jack Mac    Jun 27, 11:13 AM    #

71. “Landrum Kelly-your pathetic attempts to draw people to your pointless web site are annoying. Your provocative comments are amateurish attempts at promoting yourself and web traffic. You are SPAM.” —Snake, #42

    I am sorry that you see the posting of my non-commerecial website as spam. At its core, the site was and is an attempt at a defense of Christian pacifism—and a corresponding critique of the so-called “just war” doctrine.

    That site is part of an attempt to invite serious inquiry about the morality of war. That seemed relevant to me in this thread. After all, we are not talking about prayer in any and all public or official contexts. In this thread we are discussing the practice of ritualized prayer in the context of institutions that train hired professional killers. That might not be the way the military likes to conceive of itself, but it is the truth as I see it. Saying such things has not made me popular, but I did not choose a life’s work in political theory in order to promote either myself or my popularity.

    Landrum Kelly
    http://www.philosophicalquestions.org

    — Landrum Kelly    Jun 27, 05:39 PM    #

72. A LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION?

    Look, we are talking about PRAYER here, a religious practice and ritual which is being used to sanctify (or at least to gloss) the evils of war.

    What appears at first to be a simple legal-constitutional question about the tension between the free exercise clause and the establishment clause becomes, upon closer inspection, not merely a failure to separate church and state, but also finally an affirmation of the absolute union of church and state through the co-opting of religious symbols and authority for the sake of justifying violence.

    What one finally has is the ritualistic equivalent of euphemism through the co-opting of a set of performative utterances which become a linguistic cover (not to mention a public relations cover) for the real purpose of military action, which is always finally about violence and domination.

    The use of religious ritual in this fashion is thus a very cynical and calculated device for legitimizing violence. As with euphemism pure and simple, the dirty reality must be covered over and made to appear wholesome and noble.

    In a simpler age, using prayer in this manner would simply have been called “blasphemy.”

    — Landrum Kelly    Jun 28, 12:52 AM    #

73. It is assumed by the Christian writers herewith that, of course, the prayer that is required and is so acceptable be a Christian prayer. If, instead, the required prayer were a Jewish prayer or a Muslim chant or an atheist statement can’t you just hear their indignation and anger that religion was being forced upon them? The hypocracy as well as bigoted thinking are disheartening in this wanting-to-be-tolerant, welcoming and diverse world. Bravo, ACLU! S.

    — S.    Jun 28, 01:38 AM    #

74. To S, Post 73: You’re wrong, you know. I wrote post 5l – did you read my post and some of the others? Or did you jump directly to name calling? I oppose what’s happening at the Air Force Academy, and I am a Christian. I wrote my post 2 days before you wrote yours, and agreed with your point of view. Perhaps you need to broaden your outlook by reading more, and reacting less. I can tolerate your sarcasm, however, if you can tolerate the fact that a Christian shares your point of view on this issue.

    — Martha    Jun 29, 12:09 AM    #

75. Martha, your post 51 was wonderful and your outrage is understandable. Unfortunately, the reputation of Christianity and its adherents has been damaged by its most intolerant and most unreasoning members … some of whom have also posted here.

    Let’s just edit post 73 and add the words “some of” — or even “many of” — before “the Christian writers.” That makes it okay, no? Take note, S: watch out for unqualified generalizations!

    — swish    Jul 2, 12:28 PM    #

76. The ACLU continues to be one of the most valuable organizations in the country. I have great respect for it and the courage it has shown for decades to do what is right, according to our constitution.

    — Carl    Jul 2, 12:57 PM    #

77. Once again, the ACLU proves that they have more time on their hands than should be legal. That they are actually paid for the rubbish they cough up continues to disgust me.

    — Peacenik    Jul 2, 03:02 PM    #

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