June 5, 2008

U. of Phoenix's Report on Students' Progress Is 'Disingenuous,' Critic Says

The University of Phoenix said today it would welcome scrutiny of the findings in its first “Annual Academic Report,” which was described this morning by The Chronicle.

Some of those scrutinizers aren’t wasting any time.

The conclusion that the “university’s instruction is responsible for the score differential is not supported by the data, or by logic,” contended Trace A. Urdan, an analyst who covers the university’s corporate parent, Apollo Group Inc., for Signal Hill, an investment bank. He said the university’s use of the data appears “disingenuous.”

Mr. Urdan said he took issue in particular with the university’s decision to measure its success by comparing test scores of its freshmen against those of its seniors. That’s because the freshmen the university now admits, via its four-year-old Axia College, tend to be far-less-prepared academically than Phoenix’s traditional bachelor’s degree-seeking students. The latter students tend to be older and typically enter with some college credits under their belt.

Mr. Urdan has questioned the educational value of Axia, which is now an important part of the university’s growth strategy and which has tuition levels low enough that federal loans and grants often cover most of the students’ costs — until they have to start repaying the loans.

Not only is the university not measuring the students as a cohort, but it’s comparing two very different kinds of students, said Mr. Urdan. “It sure hasn’t persuaded me on the value of Axia.” —Goldie Blumenstyk

Comments

1. Just becasue an instituion is “for profit” does not mean it is not academically sound. But we need a lot more transparenciy and honesty. Has Phoenix provided that?

   — Gustavo A.Mellander    Jun 6, 06:29 AM    #

2. If the Axia program is four years old….why not measure the growth of the first cohort with the same group four years later. Perhaps they did and excluded the results.

   — Mike    Jun 6, 08:34 AM    #

3. You can count on the U of PHX using the conclusions of their “research” as headlines when recruiting. Non researchers won’t see the obviously misleading“apples to oranges” outcomes.

   — steve    Jun 6, 08:35 AM    #

4. The “University” of Phoenix is clearly an institution designed primarily to profit from student loan programs.

   — jose    Jun 6, 09:37 AM    #

5. To Jose (#4)

   Well Stated, in my opine, no For-Profit entity should be entitled to any governmental monies directly or indirectly (other than that which is specifically in a services contractual form) —- The tax payer’s paying for For-Profit entities (or individuals) who are undertaking actions to enhance their wealth is simply …

   — zahid    Jun 6, 10:14 AM    #

6. I just think it’s a shame that a lot of low income and minority families view that place as legit. I went to The PhD Program conference a couple of years ago, and the disdain with which this one girl, who had a B average in her undergraduate and graduate studies at U of Phoenix, was treated by all the doctoral recruiters, particularly the first-tier ones, was horrible. She was young and optimistic, but when they started asking legitimate things like, “How much math have you taken?” etc. she almost broke down in tears. Some of them just rolled their eyes and tried to get her over to a competitor’s table.

   — James    Jun 6, 10:26 AM    #

7. That the young woman in #6 did not know about disdain of online degrees is part of the problem. Students acquiring online ‘degrees’ think that their degree is equivalent to a real degree. Nobody tells them, of course, that many people view these schools and their degrees as fourth-class. A ‘B’ average from an online place is a bad thing and who in their right mind would even think about trying to get into a Ph.D. program with a background like that? Sorry for the rant, but I am really tired of for-profit places taking advantage of students who don’t have the knowledge about universities that would help them make more informed decisions.

   — Ann    Jun 6, 11:34 AM    #

8. A few of my buddies went to University of Phoenix and did well. Perhaps it varies person to person.

   — George    Jun 6, 11:36 AM    #

9. I think we are missing the big picture here. Every school has at least one person, one instructor, etc. that is not up to par no matter where you go. People will be treated badly, will not be helped as they would like and may in fact be criticized. Do we measure the entire school by that one person who treated a student badly? Of course not! Is the University of Phoenix the best institution in the world? Of Course not! But does that mean they suck? The U o P has a very successful and recognized program. It is sometimes the only way for some students to get their education and in fact has many students return as part-time or full-time instructors that believe in the program because of what it allowed them to accomplish. Beyond the hype and beyond the advertising, U o P has a great program for a particular student. If you aren’t that student then quit your crying and go somewhere else. Be careful though, because you just might meet someone on campus that hates that school too.

   — huklebery    Jun 6, 11:44 AM    #

10. I’d like to see some data on the number of community college administrators, from presidents on down, who have on-line degrees in “academic administration” and such. I think we’d be surprised at the number of dubious degrees from even more dubious programs. And the for-profit world (plus the “development” world of financially troubled colleges and universities) is feeding that system.

    — dave    Jun 6, 11:48 AM    #

11. I find it interesting that the University chose to locate in Phoenix. It makes me wonder if they could pass muster with SACS.

    — Jim    Jun 6, 11:54 AM    #

12. In RE #11
    It is been my experience covering higher ed for 32+ years that SACS rarely turns down an institution able to pay its membership fees and only jerks accreditation from those who can’t.

    Do you recall a public university anywhere in SACS area that lost accreditation? Of course the little private schools who run out of money have often lost theirs and had to close.

    — John M. Hays    Jun 6, 12:13 PM    #

13. Excellent point, dave (#10). I work at a fairly large community/technical college in the South (around 14,000 credit students) and some of our highest-paid administrators received degrees from online for-profit institutions. Some of these people are really competent, and just needed a convenient way to get the letters after their name to legitimize their positions… but others are not so competent.

    — doubting    Jun 6, 12:14 PM    #

14. I find the comment in #10 very interesting. You actually will not find very many community college administrators with a “dubious” doctorate. That is a gross exaggeration and frankly laughable. You would also be wise to look closely at those degrees from individuals working in the for-profit / market-driven schools. There are a lot of very prestigious Ph.D.’s working there because they found that the for-profit schools are actually doing a better job preparing students for work directly in the workplace. I would not get a Ph.D. from a for-profit because I don’t think that’s their mission. (It’s not exactly a practitioner degree.) I also think people are making assumptions about the delivery modes of the degrees offered through the for-profit schools. Many of these are regionally accredited (DeVry University), on-campus programs with the option of taking courses online. How is that different from a government-run, bureaucratic, slow-to-respond state school?

    — Jen    Jun 6, 12:25 PM    #

15. If you want to know what an arrogant, elitist, idiots looks like, just read the above comments.

    — JEC    Jun 6, 12:27 PM    #

16. The school provides education for those that otherwise couldn’t attend. That is great for many and especially first timers. I just hope that those people that knock the school down actually take a class before doing so. Please formulate an opinion based on experience, not hearsay.

    — Nathan    Jun 6, 12:30 PM    #

17. JEC. .Please . . if you are going to take the time to criticize someone. . .at least use proper grammar. . .idiots should not have been plural. . .o ryou should have omitted the an before arrogant. . .ha ha ha

    — huklebery    Jun 6, 01:05 PM    #

18. I have worked in the field of education for 42 years as a faculty member and an administrator. I have taught in traditional schools and in for profit schools. The UOP was one of the schools where I worked.

    I enjoyed the students, administrators, and faculty members. The students earned the equivalent of a traditional school education where faculty members were more interested in their research agenda than what students learned.

    My concern with UOP and for profit schools is how they treat their faculty. Education is not a “ cookie cutter experience”, but much of what goes on at UOP and other for profit schools is. Some traditional institutions are taking the “cookie cutter” approach in the guise of “accreditation requirements”. Accreditation bodies need to address that issue unless we want to continue to turn out college graduates who functionally illiterate.

    — dee    Jun 6, 01:11 PM    #

19. U of Ph certainly does increase access to MS and PhD programs for those who might otherwise have no access…because they wouldn’t be accepted in legitimate programs. I have first-hand experience teaching in a for-profit MS program (Sorry, but I have two kids to feed and needed the money). Although there are exceptions, most of the students in the program were ill-prepared for the rigors of graduate work, and had been admitted to help the class make. The “expanded access” to graduate degrees does dilute the credibility of the degrees. After only a few years, there are PhD’s from Phoenix and others all over the place. Some even apply for faculty positions at my university, but aren’t even given a moment’s consideration. I suspect that only those in academe know these degrees for their true worth. The degrees are like toothpaste from China: conceptually the same, but with hidden dangers. So, it seems that those of us with real degrees are like Crest with Fluoride. Sparkly, refreshing and good for you every day. I feel special.

    — Joren V.    Jun 6, 01:11 PM    #

20. I have taught at the UOP online doctorial program (the pay is excellent) and have taught also at a Research I institution. I believe that UOP gets a bad rap. Not every traditional non-profit institution is a “Harvard.” There are many schools that produce questionable students. During my years teaching at UoP I found a combination of outstanding students and those that were marginal at best. Many of UoP students chose the doctorial program at UoP not because they could not cut the mustard at a “traditional” program but because they could work on their degree and still maintain employment, a household, etc. I taught student literally around the world and it was refreshing to really get a global perspective during classroom discussions. I received my doctorate from a Research I institution and I respect the UoP model. UoP is not for every student in the same vein that large public schools or private small schools are not for every student.

    — D    Jun 6, 01:16 PM    #

21. As a Unervisity of Phonix gradamate. I resemble all of this negative remarkables. My inline deegree in nucular fizics helped me git a job as the boss of a nucular plant. It’s not that hard. When the green light is on, everybody is happy and drinking coffee. When the yellow light is on everybody put the coffee down! When the red light is on we just run. But we haven’t done that yet. I know I’m faster than Jim Higgins, though. He don’t even have no PhD!

    — Bubba Willingham    Jun 6, 01:17 PM    #

22. Reading some of the condescending comments above about “for-profit” universities really makes the point for the very existence of “for-profit” universities. Some of these comments implicitly insinuate that they (the so-called established universities) are the best and anything else is inferior. This is the same class-mentality that has caused so many social upheavals in human history. Apparently, humans (especially those who claim to know more) have not learned or are incapable of learning any real lessons from the history of their existence. What a shame!!!

    — AN    Jun 6, 01:33 PM    #

23. I recall one of the dirty little secrets of academia from a few years back. A law school that consistently had the highest percentage of its graduates pass the bar was a 3rd rate, strip-mall law school. The degree didn’t provide entre into any prestigious law firms, but its graduates went on to have lucrative practices nonetheless. Some professions don’t need sages on stages to impart the wisdom of the realm.

    — original marci    Jun 6, 01:44 PM    #

24. I have worked at several universities around the country. While I have no direct experience with online for-profits, I can understand “some” of the criticism. However, I do wonder why there is no criticism of “traditional” schools online programs (that are rapidly growing and providing new funding bases), credited by the same agencies as some online for-profit programs. Sure some FP’s are shady, but many could be legitimate, having many qualified faculty members (look at some of their very credible credentials). There are bad programs, incompetent faculty, under-qualified/prepared students, etc. at traditional schools as well. Why not get a degree, graduate or otherwise, at a legitimate online for-profit school just as you could at a legitimate online non-profit (traditional) school?

    — gmon    Jun 6, 02:12 PM    #

25. I think it took a lot of guts to put out an academic report of this nature knowing that 98% of the academic community will read it only to poke holes in it. That type of courage should be respected and, perhaps, it is a sign of a university growing up and presenting itself to the rigor of peer review. The assumption that peer review may be unbiased appears to wrong, but they went ahead anyways because they clearly want to prove themselves and welcome the challenges laid before them.

    — John    Jun 6, 02:30 PM    #

26. Isn’t one of the key factors in determining the legitimacy of an Online University, whether or not it is accredited, and if so, by whom?

    For instance,TUI University (formerly known as Touro University International) is accredited by the Accrediting Commission for Senior Colleges and Universities, WASC, Western Association of Schools and Colleges. WASC is widely known for having the most academically rigorous accreditation process of the nine regional accrediting agencies in the United States. Full accreditation from WASC shows that TUI University has been judged to have met the same level of academic standards WASC demands of such world renowned member institutions as Stanford, UC Berkeley, USC and Cal Tech.

    Thus, it’s wrong to automatically attach a negative connotation to the quality of a degree, just because it has been earned through Online delivery methods. The quality of the faculty and the legitimacy of the curriculum (as confirmed through the accreditation process) are the most important aspects in evaluating the quality of a university and the worth of its degrees, not the methods by which the instruction has been delivered.

    — Bill Baldwin, Jr.    Jun 6, 02:40 PM    #

27. I have worked as an administrator at UOP and am currently at a top tier school. Each institution has its’ niche but the arrogance of some of these comments is amazing. UOP serves a population that a lot of enrollment starved “traditional” schools are fighting over. These are people who are working, have families and still have the dream of completing a degree. They may have been unsuccessful at traditional schools, not because they were unable to do the work, but because these schools make completing a degree in their life circumstances almost impossible. It was a thrill for me to know that I had been involved in helping some of these people fulfill their dream. To arrogantly assume that these people didn’t know any better, or that they are somehow inferior is the very reason that schools like UOP are thriving. Students at UOP are taught, for the most part, by practitioner faculty who have actually had to live in the real world where everything doesn’t revolve around them, they actually have to be concerned with keeping a job and the bottom line. Is UOP for everyone? Of course not, but then neither is Harvard.

    — Amazed    Jun 6, 02:46 PM    #

28. >I have first-hand experience teaching in a for-profit MS program (Sorry, but I have two kids to feed and needed the money)

    Interesting, Joren, many people have two kids to feed and THAT’s the reason they cannot enroll in traditional schools that require daytime attendance and make little or no accomodations for students who do not fit into their mold.

    And I’m glad your “Crest with Flouride” degree makes you feel special. You’re right up there with another “special” person with a mediocre GPA from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. I’m CERTAIN his acceptance to the latter was based on his stellar undergrad performance and outstanding GRE scores.

    Give it up… every school has slackers and those admitted for reasons that have NOTHING to do with their ability.

    — Special is as Special does    Jun 6, 03:43 PM    #

29. I am 23 days from completing my MBA at UOP, and can tell you that it is one of the toughest and most rewarding experiences of my life. Believe it or not, co-workers and managers are actually congratulating me, offering positive comments, compliments and slaps on the back! I am sure that some of the individuals commenting here feel very sorry for them.
    I am the typical demographic for UOP…a mid-career professional that has a family and cannot quit or take long breaks from work to attend school.
    The only negative comments are from the academic types which are on stunning display here. Since they have decided that online learning is inferior, they will certainly be shutting down efforts at their “traditional” schools to do the same thing. I am sure they would have preferred that my MBA come from a paper-based and face-to-face environment. However, the real world is going virtual, and not looking back. UOP is a pioneer and simply enduring the jealous barbs of the old guard.
    Believe me, they would not hesitate to snap up every “inferior” student they could from UOP, and enroll them in their own “superior” online program. It’s about the money. UOP got mine. They listened.

    — 23 and I Walk!    Jun 6, 04:29 PM    #

30. You people really need to give it up. I am at a job now that I never would of been if I did not get my M.Ed. from UOP. I have the same abilities as any quack from a traditional school does. I am really sick and tired of you morons who put for-profit schools down. School is school and that is that! I have had horrible experiences at traditional schools that fail in comparison to what UOP ever did to anyone.

    — thomas    Jun 6, 04:42 PM    #

31. What the article is about is Phoenix making claims for its own educational success that are unsupported by the evidence that Phoenix itself supplies. The criticism comes from someone who is apparently an analyst for an investment firm, one of those people with a real job and not a fantasy job in academia (do you know we get to turn of gravity here….but only when the students aren’t around?)

    So the problem remains: does UOP accomplish what it says it accomplishes. If it does not, then no amount of name calling (academics are all arrogant), and no defense arising from Phoenix’ alleged social mission (giving family people a chance that anti-working class anti-family colleges would not) holds any water.

    We cannot loose a bunch of incompetents on society, simply because they are able (with generous government subsidies) to purchase a few letters and assorted punctuation marks after their names.

    And just so we are clear, I am just as afraid of MD’s who finished in the bottom 10% of their class as I am of graduates from a degree factory. It is disheartening to talk to an MD who is apparently scientifically ignorant or unable to follow a very simple logical syllogism, and, once such a person is in practice, it is very hard to root him or her out. People are rightly worried about outcomes from for-profits, especially if they apply to more than just the lowest 10%.

    Whether or not UOP is such a factory has to be demonstrated by UOP—neither they nor their graduates get a free pass simply by asserting that they pass muster. The article at the top of this page raises questions about whether UOP is doing this honestly, and, in the instance cited, in which they compare a group of poorly prepared students with a group of well-prepared students, it is certainly reasonable to question the honesty of their self-assessment.

    — Jim    Jun 6, 06:03 PM    #

32. UoP is a good school for some people. However, for some it is not. I am glad to see that UOP has come out with its own report. It shows to me that they are trying to prove that they are of quality. I think that it is a real shame that there are people that still put the school down. To me, that is a sign of extreme ignorance. The fact that the school is for profit is a “crock”. Based on my own experiences I have come across people who are extremely intelligent. Yes, you are going to have people who are lazy and will do not do anything. However, that is a part of life. UOP has this watchdog site out there created by a former student of UOP called: “uopsucks.com”. This site only tells one side of the story. I have several years of experience working in my field. Yet, there are people who are going to try to tell me that because of where I received my degree, I am not good enough. I say, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is taking their classes online there or anywhere else than come back and judge us. Academia is run by a bunch of ignorant people who think they are better than the next guy.

    — Tom    Jun 7, 11:20 AM    #

33. Assessment of the success or failure of a program varies directly with the independence and quality of the evaluator. In-house or sweetheart evaluations are invariably positive.

    I am saddened over the growth of the for-profit institutions. It is too bad that the Chronicle of Higher Education covers institutions like the University of Phoenix as if they were respected members of academe in the United States.

    Don Freeman

    — Donald M. Freeman    Jun 7, 11:54 AM    #

34. Jim (#31),

    You ask fair questions. I believe that UOP methods and findings should be questioned appropriately, and it looks like the author in the above article is doing his job. However, I also believe that UOP demonstrates an openness to scrutiny, which is the reason for the report. However, we are not talking about that report, or the above article anymore, mainly due to those in this forum with intense negative feelings towards the University of Phoenix.

    I appreciate your call to cease the name-calling. However, your post itself implies that UOP graduates may be a “bunch of incompetents”, recipients of UOP’s “social mission”…to be possibly compared with the lower 10% of a traditional University. When our fellow commenter’s are called arrogant, it is for what they are displaying in this forum, so it is quite legitimate and on the mark. On the other hand, the stone throwing from the UOP opposition is very different. Where is the beef? Show me real wrongdoing instead of what-if and suspicion. Things like teachers changing grades, promoting those who have not done the work, attendance at non-existent classes, or paying students to be there. Oh, wait a second; I forget…those are scandals happening at traditional schools. Is anyone saying those noble institutions have no right to exist?

    >So the problem remains: does UOP accomplish what it says it accomplishes.

    As I said, that is a fair question, and I would like to see more discussion on-topic.

    >…it is certainly reasonable to question the honesty of their self-assessment.

    There you go again. A wrong result reported by UOP has to be “dishonest”. I do not know of any University who is not trying to put its best foot forward in order to increase enrollment and endowments (that’s money). Sure, we can talk about UOP’s methods and the merits of the above article…but then that would be debate around a search for the truth.

    >Whether or not UOP is a [Degree] factory has to be demonstrated by UOP

    UOP is regionally accredited and the business school is further accredited by the ACBSP. Are they so bad at what they do that they would accredit a “degree factory”? UOP has nothing to demonstrate in this regard. Traditional schools are certainly proud of these same credentials when they can get them. There are more specialized accreditations, but these go to schools of a different type, and are not sought by UOP.

    >…neither [UOP] nor their graduates get a free pass simply by asserting that they pass muster.

    UOP will never get a pass, free or otherwise from the traditional academic community. We raise reasonable points to condescending and ill-mannered questions, and are brushed aside. If UOP is accredited, then accrediting bodies were hood-winked! If the students have stellar GPA’s, then the curriculum is sub-par! If jobs and promotions are achieved by graduates, certainly, it is a degree factory! I must make a special note here that the mockery in post #21 is so hilarious that he gets a “free pass” from me.

    The academics who are participating in this forum have my respect. However, with your learning comes responsibility. Let us common folk do the name-calling and foaming. We look to you as the critical thinkers and arbiters of our un-schooled passions. That is not what I am seeing here.

    Traditional schools are part of an age-old educational system being disrupted by modern internet technology. There is no changing that. If I can sit in my guest room and earn an accredited degree on my schedule, then I will look at that as a good thing. Do not worry…it was hard. There were times that I thought I might not make it. However, being so close to finishing my UOP MBA, I can look back with a sense of accomplishment because it was not only worth doing, but the degree is also very worthy. Nobody treats my degree with disdain except those who have something to lose by my success.

    — 22 and I Walk!    Jun 7, 12:57 PM    #

35. Don (#33),
    >It is too bad that the Chronicle of Higher Education covers institutions like the University of Phoenix as if they were respected members of academe…

    Oh no, now the Chronicle of Higher Education has been hood-winked! What awesome power UOP must wield!

    > I am saddened over the growth of the for-profit institutions.

    Truth be known, none of them survive without making money, and lots of it. The difference between profit and non-profits is an accounting methodology that exists only in the books. There is a local state University here that I have lots of affection for. They send me a glossy newsletter, most of which describes how much money they have, how much they are expected to raise in the current capital campaign, and how much they wish you would send. This is in addition to the tuition, state, and federal dollars they get. I do not fault them; finances are the life’s blood of any enterprise, whether it is business or business school.

    However, being non-profit does not inoculate an institution to a status above for-profits schools.

    — 22 and I Walk!    Jun 7, 02:01 PM    #

36. Here is a question. If UOP is so bad when it comes to academics, how come traditional universities are starting to follow the same learning format?

    — Tom    Jun 7, 02:20 PM    #

37. I’ve been teaching for the University of Phoenix since 2003. I do so alongside many other things I do in education – consult, write, publish, and lecture. Teaching in an online forum allows me the freedom to do all of these things, while expanding and experimenting with myown knowledge-base and research. As far as my graduate education classes go, there is plenty of rigor (just ask my students!). The University provides my master syllabus, of which I must adhere to – and believe me, it isn’t a cake-walk for students. In a six-week course, they must turn in a dozen written assignments, 3 team assignments, read 2 to 3 chapters of text per week plus journal articles. We also discuss in a main forum regularly, and if they don’t participate they lose participation points. I use a heavily socratic method, so that whatever they respond with, I field more questions to them – and they’re hard questions, because I am there to learn alongside them. I defie anyone to challenge the misguided belief that educational coursework at the UOP lacks rigor, legitimacy, and challenge – not mine.

    — Susan    Jun 9, 07:36 AM    #

38. It is a false statement to say that if it were not for the U of Phx, some students would not be able to attend college at all. There are numerous public universities that offer online degrees at less than half the cost of U Phx. Of course, they lack the advertising budget of U Phx, so they are not as widely known. At least one that I know of offers in-state tuition rates even to out-of-state students. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any student to pay U Phx’s extremely high tuition, much of which only goes to funding their gargantuan ad budget.

    — Michele    Jun 9, 09:47 AM    #

39. My, oh my! What venom spews from the keyboards of traditionalists! Makes me think that the cozy tenured domains of the self-proclaimed academic elite are being threatened. Sad to say, it’s almost a racist attitude: “if you’re not like me you’re inferior.”

    It’s progress folks. And progress threatens those who have something to protect, especially those who may secretly feel naked without their cloak of imagined academic legitimacy.

    Peter Drucker, a highly respected, traditional lifelong academic, said that “…in twenty years we won’t recognize traditional colleges and universities…as a result of the Internet.” Reality is a tough pill to swallow for some people, and a big nasty pill is that online enrollments are growing at triple and quadruple the rates of classroom-only enrollments.

    The trend is established, folks, and you better accept it…or go crying and protesting to your retirement.

    — Joe S    Jun 9, 10:38 AM    #

40. UofPhx has not done itself any favors in its advertising of the completely online programs. I enrolled at UoP in 2000 and graduated in 2003 with a BS in Bus. Administration. When I originally enrolled, I was interested in their online program but because I lived within a certain radius (100 miles, if I remember correctly), they would not allow it. I attended their evening program twice per week. The courses I took were in classrooms with the absolute newest technology available. The instructors were experts in their fields, (had PhD’s from not for profits) in addition to the fact that many had worked in their profession in the private sector and/or owned businesses of their own. In addtion, there were never more than 16 or 17 students in my classes. If I had a question, I only had to e-mail my instructor and my question was answered within a couple of hours.

    I am currently employed by a large Southeastern publicly assisted university and we struggle to get projectors in classrooms, much less smartboards, microphones, etc. Class sizes can be as large as 385 students. The rooms have carpets that need cleaned and walls that need to be painted, not to mention the mold in the heating and air systems.

    UoP has filled the void that large public institutions did not fill — that not all adults are able to go to college right out of high school. Some get jobs and go back to school later. This is what I did. I got married, had children and went back to school at 36 years old. I am thankful for UofP because I only had one public 4-year institution to choose from due to my geographic location and it would’ve taken me years to complete my BS degree at the slow rate that they offered the courses I needed.

    — Eleanor    Jun 9, 11:28 AM    #

41. Susan, I must say as a former student in the M. Ed. program, I agree with you. UoP has taught me many things that I did not know about. I am one that likes to learn on his own, so the negative issues really do not bother me because I know the truth. In the field of education, learning online is an advantage because knowing how to use technology is so important. In the traditional university, all I really did was sit there and listen to some boring instructor for 3 hours and sometimes I did not remember a thing.

    — Tom    Jun 9, 04:55 PM    #

42. All you need to do is answer this. If you are interviewing people for a position and you have one person with a degree from U of PNX and one from a traditional 4 year state school, who are you more likely to hire based on education. Do you look at the PNX degree as a full degree or ¾ of a degree?

    — BV    Jun 9, 05:54 PM    #

43. BV, I understand what you are saying. However, what about a person that has both?

    — Tom    Jun 9, 07:05 PM    #

44. Below is a listing of a few of ‘those” on-line schools that must be banished forever. They have committed the most egregious sin against higher education by offering an on-line cohort while being part of a traditional brick and mortar institution. If these colleges do not come to their senses and realize how much they are helping to destroy quality higher education then I must insist that now is the time for all to come to the aid of higher education.

    We must unite in our commitment to ensure that all have the opportunity to sit in “University” classes with over 300 students taught by grad assistants, now that is value for education dollar spent. The opportunity to sleep your way through on-campus classes should be protected at all costs. And don’t forget the pleasure of witnessing the arrogant PhD that never answers your questions and mumbles his or her way through a semester of US History. Ahh the joy and benefit of “traditional” higher education…just take a look at the “traditional” drop out rates that my colleagues prior have produced. Oh I forgot the land of “traditional” higher education is perfect in everyway. Your specious arguments would make Orwell proud.

    Let’s reveal the salient point about these profit / non-profit rants once and for all. The entire “non-profit” moniker is tax code delineation as to what can be done with an institution “profits” period. “Non-profit” schools “go out of business” every day because they failed to bring in more money than they spent. So you can forget the “higher than” attitude drawing comparisons and basing arguments on how an institution reports its profits e.g non-profit. Basing your argument on this thin reed is intellectual bankruptcy and informs with regard to the authors undergrad training in critical thinking.

    If your “traditional” campus is being run by any of the “visionary” knuckleheads that decry on-line as an assault on higher learning then update your CV and move on because your institution will soon be “out of business” and irrelevant to a growing number of students.

    So as I promised, here is a listing of only a few of these “offending” on-line schools that offer complete 100% on-line degrees.

    Harvard Medical School: Online Physician CME
    http://cmeonline.med.harvard.edu/

    University Of Maryland: BS, MBA, DBA (and just about every state college and university)
    http://www.umuc.edu/programs/grad/dm/index.shtml

    University Of Massachusetts: BS, MBA
    http://www.isenberg.umass.edu/MBA/PartTime_MBA/

    Boston, University: online Doctorate in Music Education (How can BU properly intellectually “haze” PhD candidates and reduce them to underpaid serfdom if they are not on campus?)
    http://www.bu.edu/online/online_programs/graduate_degree/doctor_music_education/

    Almost every community college nationwide

    ….etc I urge my colleagues to add to this listing so everyone will know these offending schools.

    Listen to CHE interview with one of their reporters that took an online class at University of Phoenix

    So how come if you teach at one of these schools on-line you are enlightened and when that same instructor also teaches at a “for profit” the quality of the education is somehow diminished? Am I the only one that sees how invalid the argument becomes?

    C’mon everyone. Relax. As the Bard suggested once, I think you protest too much. This bell cannot be un-rung. Every delivery modality is open to review and improvement. Each has many pluses and minuses. Shall we proceed now with a frank and open discussion of the many failings of all of higher education in JUST the past 25 years in place of piling on a new and cogent delivery method called distance education?

    — MTG    Jun 10, 09:35 AM    #

45. I failed to include a citation indicating that the Harvard Medical School CME is not a degree program.

    Notwithstanding my oversight, I included it for two reasons. First because it is Harvard endorsing the distance learning model, and second because it is an excellent example of the highest application of distance higher education. The Harvard Medical School on-line CME program provides medical doctors with accessible learning at a time and place convenient to their busy schedule. Support for “education everywhere – anytime” is one of the delivery goals for distance learning.

    — MTG    Jun 10, 09:58 AM    #

46. BV (#42),

    You stated in your post:
    >All you need to do is answer this. If you are interviewing people for a position and you have one person with a degree from U of PNX and one from a traditional 4 year state school, who are you more likely to hire based on education?

    #43 asks what if the person has degrees from UOP, and also a traditional school. And I further ask, what if the person doing the hiring has a degree from UOP? What are the rules then, and who is making them?

    BV, your question presumes without basis that a UOP degree is inferior, therefore the only “correct” response is to hire the other guy. I am proud of my UOP MBA and look forward to increased opportunities in my career field and in life. It has been sufficiently displayed in this forum that UOP detractors are grasping at straws to support a faulty and unworkable premise. It is disappointing to see educators bowed so low.

    Another Chronicle of Higher Education article just out sheds more light on issues raised in the above article and certainly makes it all seem less menacing. What they were attempting to do is show the improvement in scores from freshman to seniors. This is a relevant comparison since UOP freshman enter school with lower skills than the national average. By the senior year, they have shown improvements greater than the national average. The conclusion is they start low, but recover and end high. The article “U. of Phoenix Says Test Scores Vindicate Its Academic Model” can be googled, or found directly at http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i40/40a00103.htm . It seems reasonable to me that the freshman would be compared to seniors at UOP if improvement at UOP is what you are trying to show.

    Another interesting point made by the Chronicle article is by Patrick M. Callan, president of the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education…”although he had not yet seen Phoenix’s data, its decision to publish such a report was a very positive development. Even if the university has chosen to release data that put it in the best light, as others often do, Mr. Callan said the report will be a significant piece of the national debate over what value an institution can add to a student.”

    My opinions are based upon my read of both articles. You may see it different, and have every right to. I look forward to comments based on fact and findings rather than false premise and broad-brush put-downs.

    — 19 and I Walk!    Jun 10, 02:09 PM    #

47. This was taken from UOPsucks.com:
    “Received in email to UOPSucks.com – Author will probably NOT see your replies – admin
    ——————————————————————————————————————-
    Since my sons graduation from UOP nothing positive has resulted in terms of finding a great job. You see, several companies that he submitted an application to had hired UOP master degreed graduates in the past who failed miserably. This information became available to him because he was referred by friends currently employed at these companies. The story was they did not know how to do anything (i.e. takes notes, talk on the phone to clients, write proposals or do presentations). This was a little disconcerting considering that is all you do in the classroom.

    I agree there is something to learn regardless of the reputation of a school. But it is the reputation of the school that will not give you the opportunity to show what you know. Three years and $40,000 later, my son cannot pursue other employment on the basis he has a master’s degree from UOP. The only advantage I can see to having this degree is if you are with a company that requires the paper to advance within your current environment. Otherwise, you are doomed.

    His purpose for returning to school (despite my constant nagging) was to make a better life for him and his family. At 45 years old, it was definitely a struggle in both time and money but he prevailed and graduated. Now several years later, people are laughing at where he got his degree to the point he does not want anyone to know. Luckily, he has two interviews scheduled which happened after he removed UOP from his resume. I forgot one more thing. In the interview they tell you they can assist you in job placement after you graduate but this, too, is a lie!

    My suggestion for all persons considering advancing your education is to really think about why you want this degree and then do your research before making this decision as to where you will get it. Had this website been known to us, he would have made a different choice. “

    My point is that if these were people from a “traditional” school, they wouldn’t receive this treatment. I am tired of these “tradional” elitist thinkng that they have the right to disregard other forms of education. People from traditiional schools have these same exacdt problems. Yet, they receive the royal treatment from the world. Heck, why don’t I make my own site called “traditional” elitist go to hell! However, that is not me.

    — Tom    Jun 10, 07:04 PM    #

48. Little do many of the traditional elites know that their days on the top shelf are numbered this century. The feds in particular are wise to the research grant game financial scheme of lower in-state tuition followed by millions in research grants; over half of which in siphoned off by the universities to pay for profs salary and grounds maintenance.

    Taxpayers should welcome all for-profit colleges and universities with open arms. They finally have created a financial model to stand on their own two feet in the market place without begging on the backside of home millages and with questionable grants or dole oriented state lobbyists .

    — Thomas    Jun 11, 05:41 PM    #

49. Every time UOP is mentioned the academic traditionalists get their panties in a wad. There are sour grapes throughout this thread. UOP students do well, and our distance students have to compete with them. But UOP actually tries for quality in its online programs, which is more than many non profits do. The “name” institutions claim quality because of their name and campus, and in many cases their faculty don’t have a clue about how to teach online. They could learn a lot from UOP.

    — Al    Jun 12, 04:35 PM    #

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