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Prior days' news: By date | Search This week's print issue Back issues: By date | Search March 27, 2008Students No Longer Long for NYU, Survey Finds -- Now They Hope for HarvardThe Princeton Review isn’t known for its research methodology, but it does know how to capture the popular imagination. Today the test-preparation company released its annual “College Hopes & Worries” report, based on survey responses from about 10,000 high-school students and their parents. The students’ “dream college”: Harvard. The parents’: Princeton. For the previous three years, though, the same survey found that students dreamed of getting in to New York University. What happened? “Harvard has been in the news in regards to financial aid,” said Robert Franek, lead author of the company’s Best Colleges guide. Students’ and parents’ biggest worry, he pointed out in today’s report, is that they won’t be able to afford their first-choice college. Harvard’s recent plans to lower costs for middle- and upper-middle-income families, he said, are answering their “needs and fears.” Most students and parents aren’t picking a college for its academics, according to the Princeton Review—just 9 percent said that’s how they would make their decision. Half said they were looking for “the best overall fit,” and a third were most concerned with “career interests.” Almost two-thirds of students said they would consider, at least somewhat, a college’s commitment to the environment. Meanwhile, stress about the application process has soared, with more than six in 10 students and parents reporting high levels. But a few offered words of wisdom. “Take lots of bubble baths,” said a student from California. “Try to win the lottery before you apply,” said one from Colorado. “There are many good colleges out there,” said a parent from New Jersey, “not just the 10 that everyone is applying to.” —Sara Lipka Posted on Thursday March 27, 2008 | Permalink |Comments
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AGH! I just hope that the Princeton Review’s survey methodology, and N =10,000 sample, is as bad on this work as it is in all the rest of the work they do along these lines. There at least, it’s just total garbage, as the opening of this article alludes. Let’s just hope that this is as wrong as the rest of what they do. The parent quoted is, of course, so right. There really are a lot of very good schools out there, not just other than the big H, and P, but better! Certainly so for undergraduate education.
Technical note: the 10,000 respondents could very well be more high-end, up-scale students. Thats’ decidedly the market that PR serves.
— David Mar 27, 03:39 PM #
This just reminds us that marketing counts. It’s not enough to be a good college, people must perceive the institution as good. Name brands like Harvard and Princeton are the dreams, while Ol’State U is the reality.
But as I have assured my dughters many times, the education is just as good at Ol’State U.
— Al Mar 27, 03:54 PM #
It can be “just as good at Ol’ State U.” Especially in today’s market, there may be no discernible difference whatever in the calibre of new faculty members hired by Ol’SU and by an Ivy. But the sort of student who will get that good education at the former institution needs to be the kind that will actively seek out challenging courses taught by permanent faculty rather than TAs; badger to get into the honors college; waylay professors at office hours (and every other legitimate occasion), etc. The shy, retiring or easily-intimidated types, on the other hand, are far more likely to fall between the cracks at a large state school than at, say, a first-rate liberal-arts college.
— Gustave Mar 27, 04:12 PM #
Sorry to not be able to concur with Al, but having taught at both Ol’ State U and Super-Elite/Elitist Name Brand school, the education is much (much) better at the latter.
Sure, you often get absentee (can’t-be-bothered) profs at Elite Brand School… but they appear in about the same number as the tenured coasters, slackers, and nutjobs at Ol’ State U.
The two reasons why Elite Brand School is better: class size and peer group.
Class size is crucial. If your professor has 200 students per semester, you are not going to get the attention as that from a prof with 60 (or even 30) students per semester, all other things being equal. And it’s not just about the classroom; when the Prof knows you (I’ve found) there’s more incentive (and pressure) to give it your all and perform at your peak ability.
But the peer group is the biggest thing. It’s not smarts—it’s attitude. At the Elite Brand School I teach at, the libraries on a Thursday afternoon are full of students writing papers or doing problem sets. At two State U’s I’ve taught at, they’re empty—for the Weekend Drinking has already begun.
Best education of all is found at Ye Ol’ Liberal Arts College. (Never taught there but went there myself for undergrad.) Committed profs, energized peers; unfortunately, though, all of the price and none of the prestige of Hahvahd.
— d Mar 27, 04:17 PM #
I agree that liberal arts colleges are the best places for a good education. I attended an ivy league college where maybe two professors knew my name. My older daughter now attends Skidmore where she is receiving a better, richer education than I did.
— luigi Mar 27, 04:35 PM #
I attended a major midwestern state university & loved it; I came from a small town & it opened the world to me. Now I teach at one of the ivies and I think students here get a great education. I have no hesitation whatsoever to recommending it to my friends’ children (I have no children of my own). But some students do get lost even at my school. For some a smaller, more intimate place is better; and if they are smart (as my nephew was) they will realize it and choose such an institution where there is, indeed, a ‘good fit’ and where they will thrive.
— state u grad Mar 27, 05:37 PM #
Half the students said they were looking for “the best overall fit.” Argh. The phrase that means anything is learned early.
— wm Mar 27, 06:34 PM #
another non-story
— g. Mar 27, 11:20 PM #
David (#1) is apparently unaware that Princeton has always prioritized undergraduate education, with every faculty member, no matter how senior or exalted, required to teach undergraduates. This tradition has created a special ethos at Princeton that helps explain its very strong alumni loyalty. (I’m from the Class of 1965.)
— Sandy Mar 28, 09:58 AM #
David is right: the Princeton Review is worse than sloppy when it comes to college data.
We, at one time, had college guidebooks “out” with them as the publishing house. We took the guidebooks out of print after the first run because their standards for data veracity were mind-boggling atrocious.
Don’t believe everything you read: especially if it comes from TPR.
— Vicky Mar 28, 10:50 AM #
Per Sandy’s comments (#9), I hate to burst your bubble but I can tell you from my personal experience (postdoctoral fellow) that what you say about Princeton is simply not true. I can think of numerous professors in the department in which I worked that have not taught a single undergraduate since arriving there. I DO think that Princeton probably does a better job than the other “big” Ivies of delivering a quality undergraduate education to their kids however, given its size and the size of many of its freshman and sophomore lecture courses, it is as susceptible to the travails of “big” universities as its state-run counterparts.
— Dan Mar 28, 11:49 AM #
In addition to class size, the other big reason “education” is better at liberal arts colleges is what goes on outside the classroom. The intelligence and ambition of one’s fellow students is an important factor in one’s education. Smart, driven students are harder to find at Ol’ State U.
— Brett Mar 28, 02:11 PM #
d and Brett are precisely correct. I’ve also taught at “Elite LAC” and at “Ol’State U” and I’ve had to SERIOUSLY dumb down the syllabus for the “State U” students.
“Elite LAC” students bring laptops to class in order to take notes. “Ol’State U” students bring their laptops so they can cruise Facebook.
— L Mar 28, 03:47 PM #
L, in re your last two lines: you know that’s oversimplistic and not true. There are exceptions. From my experience, “Elite LAC” students can usually afford not to take notes and so won’t, while “Ol’ State U” usually can’t and are harder workers. If you are a Princeton undergrad with a poor GPA, shrug. If you are a Vassar undergrad with that average, that’s a little different.
— S (an "Elite LAC" student) Mar 28, 04:26 PM #
I wonder why The Princeton Review isn’t The Ol’ State U Review?
— princeton67 Mar 28, 08:27 PM #
Although I am a Princeton graduate and an Ol State U prof – and proud of both – I have to admit that the liberal arts college is a better place for undergraduates overall, partly for a reason only hinted at above – that at non-doctoral institutions, undergraduates get a much bigger proportion of the faculty’s attention. At non-doctoral Ol State U we try hard, but can’t match the class size and sense of community of good liberal arts colleges.
— Bruce Mar 29, 12:00 PM #
Re-visiting this thread; I’ve been at three Ol’State U. institutions (all land-grants) for a total of 28 years, and what I’ve seen is a lot of hard-working students, faculty who care about the work they do, and a consistent effort to help students succeed. Both my daughters attend public universities and they are being challenged and doing well.
Despite the budget challenges faced by public universities, at least at the land-grant versions of Ol’State U. I sincerely think that quality education is alive and well.
— Al Mar 31, 04:09 PM #
What’s also certainly driving the desire to go to Ivy League schools is the brand-recognition that their diplomas will get. It’s also statistically easier to end up on the honor roll at Ivy League schools, as grade inflation is at its worst there. Ivy League schools are hit both with accountability concerns, and with the pressure to ‘stay at the top’.
Last I read, Ivy League schools were averaging over 40% A’s in their undergraduate courses. Brown was going to limit the grade inflation by capping the number of A’s at 39%…which many would think is still ridiculous.
In the end, the perceived quality of Ivy League schools is a function of much more than the actual quality of education.
— Tom Apr 1, 05:35 PM #
“Smart, driven students are harder to find at Ol’ State U.”
They are easy to find at a community college. During my two years as a student at a community college the most distinguished guest speaker was Kurt Vonnegut. Later I spent two years at a top-ranked university whose most distinguished guest speaker was William Buckley. I’ll take Vonnegut over Buckley any day.
— Tom Apr 2, 08:13 PM #
I think this article is interesting. Having atteneded a small liberal arts college and now being in attendance at one of the Ivies, at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter where you go. It’s your talent and ambition that deceide your academic and career outcomes. And I would like to say to #13 L, being on Facebook is one one of my current classroom activities. It’s actually interesting that I never once had time to do so at my “small liberal arts school”. Maybe you should consider that before making broad general statements.
Also research has shown that regardless of where you go for your undergraduate education, lifetime earnings are about the same.
— MLD Apr 3, 05:47 PM #
For Brett and L – less smart at state universities???!!! please – the laziest, most entitled, snobbish, least diverse groups i’ve ever taught have been at the elite ivies; i’ve met more driven, prepared, enthusiatic, energetic and thoughful students at my state U. and i’ll never go back to an ivy. i would add that to say state university students are not as ‘smart’ is truly insulting to thousands. please stop propogating an antiquated stereotype.
also insulting is your admittance to ‘dumbing down’ your syllabus. i sincerely hope a poor, bright and prepared state student never has to be presented with your low standards.
— ivystate Apr 4, 03:08 PM #