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March 12, 2008
What's Up, Doc? German Law Bars American Ph.D.'s From Calling Themselves 'Doctor'
The letter that Ian T. Baldwin, director of a prestigious research institute in Jena, Germany, received on January 9 from the Thuringian state police informed him that he was being charged with a crime. The letter was straightforward enough, but the crime was bafflingly obscure.
“It said I was being charged with Missbrauchs von Titeln, or misuse of title, and that I had to appear at the police station,” Mr. Baldwin said today by telephone. “I looked up on the Web what Missbrauchs von Titeln meant. It’s used for people who impersonate police officers.” If convicted, Mr. Baldwin, who directs the Max Planck Institute for Chemical Ecology, could face a hefty fine and as much as a year in jail.
Mr. Baldwin’s crime, under a Nazi-era law governing the use of academic titles, was to assume that his doctorate from Cornell University entitled him to call himself “Doctor” in Germany. The honorific, apparently, is reserved for recipients of doctoral degrees from German universities.
Mr. Baldwin’s legally correct designation, as a subsequent letter from the Thuringian Culture Ministry spelled out, is “Professor Ian T. Baldwin, Ph.D., Cornell University (Ithaca, New York).” A professorship at Jena’s Friedrich Schiller University entitles him to call himself a professor.
“The parenthetical reference to the university is to really emphasize that my degree is a doctor of philosophy and comes from this little university in an inconsequential country,” Mr. Baldwin explained.
In fact, Mr. Baldwin has rarely used the doctor designation since he began working in Germany, in 1996. A letter welcoming him to the Max Planck Institute and addressing him as “Professor Doctor” was, in retrospect, among the first occasions on which he committed Missbrauchs von Titeln.
“I don’t use these titles in my personal life,” he said. “Most of the times that I’m referred to as ‘Professor Doctor,’ it’s by the university or the Max Planck Institute, so there’s this issue of whether I’m liable for what other people call me.”
The directors of two other Max Planck Institutes in Jena — one with a Ph.D. from Stanford and the other with a Ph.D. from the University of Texas — have also been charged, Mr. Baldwin said.
But all is not lost. According to the German magazine Der Spiegel, state education ministers met last week and decided to allow holders of degrees from designated American universities to call themselves “Doctor.”
However, Mr. Baldwin, who has already altered his business cards and “vetted all the possible times I was breaking the law,” isn’t resting easy until he hears definitively that all of the charges against him have been dropped. —Aisha Labi
Posted on Wednesday March 12, 2008 | Permalink |Comments
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Gee… I guess they got it wrong in the movies whenever the Nazi’s referred to Indiana Jones as “Doctor Jones”…
— Marc Mar 12, 02:53 PM #
Well, at least Dr. Goebbels would be pleased.
— Joseph F Foster Mar 12, 03:19 PM #
It’s good to know that the police in Germany have so little to do and can focus on these issues. :-}
— HC Mar 12, 03:27 PM #
The “Nazi-era law” reference was cute — as if that actually explained anything. The fact is that the Associated Press in our own country also discourages the use of the title “Dr.” before the names of those holding academic doctorates to avoid confusing them with, you know, real doctors.
— MS Mar 12, 03:38 PM #
A now retired colleague of mine with a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago succeeded in obtaining the legal right to use the title “Doktor”.
— JM Mar 12, 03:40 PM #
The Gestapo is alive and well in the German police force and they are once again going after academics. We’ve come full circle.
— TW Mar 12, 03:46 PM #
True, there are many contexts in which use of the ‘doctor’ title for Ph.Ds is inappropriate, MS. However, the point of the article is that a) this German regulation had the force of law; and b) that it applied only to those whose Ph.D. was from a country other than Germany (holders of a German Ph.D. acquire the title ‘Doktor’ as part of their legal names). The “Nazi-era law” reference was important, as it explained the origin of this law, which the German magazine Der Spiegel also found silly! The article did note that the law has now been changed.
— Ruth H. Sanders Mar 12, 03:49 PM #
I almost understand this having worked with people that obtained their “doctorates” through diploma mills and call themselves Dr. in their state government jobs – I lived in Germany for several years and there a title is greatly respected and I do not see it abused there as it is here. Changing the law to only recognize certain universities and their degrees makes sense to me.
— Karen Mar 12, 03:57 PM #
I think they should have referred to Mr. Baldwin as Dr. Baldwin . Since we are in America – “we” should be using his correct title. Geez.
And to #5 – if you don’t like Americans – stay off our blogs!
— Jack Mar 12, 04:21 PM #
Physicians have the right to call themselves “doctor” because they hold the “doctor of medicine” degree. Their license reads “physician”. Even since the times of Plato, members of the healing arts were referred to as “physicians”.
— Tim Mar 12, 04:26 PM #
Does this actually apply, under current law, to degrees from other EU countries? And if so, can they really accept, say, Greek degrees, and not American ones?
— Mr Punch Mar 12, 04:27 PM #
To #4, the ‘other’ doctors should be called physicians. In the UK, physicians hold the MB, BS degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery respectively). These degrees do not qualify them to be called doctors. Dr. Baldwin does not practice medicine nor does he claim to be a physician. As one contributor said, the German police really have nothing to do but harass Americans.
— Solomon Mar 12, 04:48 PM #
Heil Titeler!
— marci Mar 12, 04:49 PM #
Ms. Sanders, when is it inappropriate for a person to use a correctly bestowed title? It is obvious that all too many people do not know that the title Doctor is from the Latin word “teacher” (doceo, docere, docui, doctus – to teach) – much akin to the Hebrew word “rabbi.” A physician who has graduated from a three-year post-Bachelor’s graduate program of studies is entitled to use the title of Doctor (Medical Doctor). But the title properly belongs to all post-graduate educated teachers – it just happens by accident that physicians have earned the title too.
It is especially interesting that the highly consistent and logical Germans state that it is permissible to use the post-name title PhD but not the pre-name title Doktor. Das ist hoechst unlogisch!
Finally, I have never been able to understand why we academics accept the insult of the Chronicle of (supposedly) Higher Education calling PhDs and other terminal degree holders Mister. It doesn’t take any extensive education to be called Mister, or does it, Sir “AP-Approved” Editor?
— Ole Perfesser Mar 12, 04:55 PM #
One day at a German police station:
Col Klink: “Shultz!”
Sgt Shultz: “Ja, Her Commandant.”
Klink: “Have you made sure that there are no Americans running around calling themselves Doctors!?”
Shutlz: “Ja, Her Commandant!”
Klink: “You’re absolutely sure!?”
Shultz: “Ja, Her Commandant!!”
Klink: (Now red with rage) “Then can you explain to me why General Burkhalter just called complaining about an American, calling himself “Doctor” Baldwin, who is going around teaching about Nazi atrocities during World War II?!?!”
Shultz: “I know nothing, Her Commandant! Nothing!!
— Tracy G. Mar 12, 05:08 PM #
Maybe now that the Baldwin gang has been apprehended, we can get the Thuringian SWAT team to come over here and start doing something about all those Ed.D.s who demand to be called “Doctor “So-and-so”. I would support a shoot on sight policy.
— Fred Mar 12, 05:10 PM #
Wow, lot of responses to this posting. Interesting to see what gets people’s dander up.
— S. Woodson Mar 12, 05:10 PM #
Reminds me of when I tried to enroll in the German university system many years ago after receiving my American B.A. and Scottish M.Sc. Even though I had studied as an undergrad exchange student in Germany, and I had all my documents and diplomas, when they saw I was American, I was told that in order to study in a German university, Americans required a high school diploma and a two years of college. Couldn’t sway them that my college and Master’s diplomas would only have been possible if I had graduated high school. So much for my plans of moving back to Germany once I complete my (US) doctorate next year!
— Bill Mar 12, 05:15 PM #
The hilarious thing is that if a German has two doctoral degrees (from German universities), he or she can use the title ‘Doktor Doktor.’ Seriously!
— Carol Mar 12, 05:29 PM #
After reading thses posts, I hope that should I have a medical emergency in the theater, someone will ask, “is there a physician in the house?” rather than “is there a doctor in the house?”.
— Henry Mar 12, 05:35 PM #
In America, even physicians who don’t hold doctoral degrees, such as those trained in England or Australia, are called doctor. Don’t expect the title to be accorded to a nurse with a Ph.D., though.
— Brian Abel Ragen Mar 12, 05:57 PM #
Tracy, G. (#16), I haven’t stopped laughing since I read your piece above. Brilliant. I have been and continued to be a fan of the whole gang …Col. Klink, Sgt. Shutlz et al.
In addition to the comment that the German police have nothing better to do, from the number of comments here on this matter it seems that we too have nothing better to do, me included. I have not laughed this much reading readers comments on Chronicle of Higher Education. ….Priceless !!
— Totally Amused Mar 12, 06:27 PM #
My understanding is that historically the press in the USA used the “doctor” to refer to physicians since most PhDs held academic positions and were referred to as “professor.” The PhD degree preceded the MD degree by several centuries.
— Fred 2 Mar 12, 06:36 PM #
In response to comment #22: incorrect. Why do you say that? A Ph.D. in nursing provides the title “Doctor” in the US just as a Ph.D. in biology or history or such.
— RBD Mar 12, 06:56 PM #
since MD stands for Mega-Dummy, who wants to be called doctor even if you are a nurse with a PHD??
— jc Mar 12, 07:38 PM #
In response to posts #22 and #25, there is no Ph.D. degree in nursing. It’s called a DNP (Doctorate in Nursing Practice). But, yes, those who hold the DNP are correctly referred to as “Dr.”.
— Stephen Mar 12, 08:55 PM #
In response to 27: yes there is a Ph.D. in nursing, granted in fact by 97 US universities. While the Ph.D. in nursing has a research focus, the DNP has a practice focus.
— RBD Mar 12, 09:17 PM #
The tern “doctor” is from Latin docere meaning to teach. It was first applied to learned clergy of the Church. It has zip to do with being a physician, and its use is now regulated in different jurisdictions. It’s a lot easier to get such a title in the US than many other places, and so it matters greatly where its from. In the US a PhD is generally consider to be a terminal research degree, and a dissertation is required to show competence in doing research and presenting findings in a professional manner. BTW, there are PhD’s in the field of medicine also.
— Tom Mar 12, 10:55 PM #
I don’t suppose a Doctor from Gallifrey would be allowed to use the title in Germany…?
— Socrates Mar 13, 12:26 AM #
As a German (with both American and German degrees), I’m both amused and embarrassed by this absurd episode. It’s particularly absurd because the so-called Bologna process (after the city, not the sausage) is already about to turn all German “Diploms” and “Magisters” into Anglo-style “Bachelors” and “Masters” by 2010, and among the doctoral degrees, the Anglo “Ph.D.” will be the future’s standard in Germany, along with all EU countries.
What I find a bit unfair is the reference to the “Nazi-era” law.
First, the actual law is a state law, and the state of Thuringia came into existence only in 1990 after the fall of the wall.
Secondly, the law treats all Europeans the same as Germans. Had Dr. Baldwin been a EU citizen, be it from Italy or Spain, Sweden or Slovakia or Greece, he could have used a “Dr.” instead of the “Ph.D.” and without any parenthetical reference to Cornell.
The point is, Dr. Baldwin is being discriminated against not because he’s a non-German but because he’s a non-European. A doctorate from a “little university in an inconsequential country,” as Dr. Baldwin puts it, would be no problem if that unknown school happens to be in tiny nations like Estonia, Malta or Cyprus.
For all non-European nations, be it the mighty U.S. of A. or some banana republic, your right to carry a title is unrestricted if you stick to the original form and say where you have it from.
I think the law is well-meaning but of course both impractical and inviting laughs in the international world of academia.
Dr. Baldwin may find solace in the fact that the state police readily accepted the “Professor” which is, under German law, a title and not just a job function. Even the spooky state police must address Dr. Baldwin as “Herr Professor” — that’s the sweetest revenge he’s going to get.
Apologies to my American friends.
P.S. It has never been easy to explain to U.S. university registrars why my German Master’s-level university “Diplom” degree is different from a high school or vocational school “diploma.”
— Marco Mar 13, 01:40 AM #
I found your articel quite interesting. An American friend of mine who got a degree in Berlin and went back to Californkia could not use her title and first had to prove she got it legally.
So your laws do not seem to be so different from our “National Socialist” laws!
In some tabloid papers in Germany you find advertisements where you get titles from American and Caribbean “univeristies” if you buy them – this is illegal in Germany!
Interesting and sad are the comments of some of your readers – very scientific! They sound like they are from people who don’t know much about Germany (of course a bit about the 12-year National Socialist dictatorship – which ended more than 60 years ago!). And they are in a true sense anti-German and so follow the same patterns of the National Socialist propaganda!
Will the world ever change?
— Gerhard Schmidt Mar 13, 03:26 AM #
Sorry for the misspelling of California! It shows my excitement!
— Gerhard Schmidt Mar 13, 03:39 AM #
In response to #20, I once met a professor in Vienna (and they’re MUCH more serious about titles than our German friends!) who was “Herr Professor Doktor Doktor . . . “ How’s that for a title?! :)
— Michael Mar 13, 05:30 AM #
how about this, I know of a person who earned ( I think earned) a JD and referred to themselves as Dr. So and So in a school alumni publication
— btw Mar 13, 05:50 AM #
What an interesting interchange! To number 5: Thank you! That was priceless! To Number 10’s response to Number 5: Oh, well, I guess the reason Americans always say German have no sense of humor is that they just don’t get it!
— Laura Mar 13, 06:08 AM #
Me again:
BS= Bull Sh*t
MS= More of the Same
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper
— Laura Mar 13, 06:15 AM #
Comment # 31 makes a lot of sense. We all agree that this is a very unfortunate incident and hope that the world moves towards more respect and understanding. However, I am weary of “educated” people who rush to judgments and labels such as anti-x, anti-y, and anti-z because such only triggers ill-feelings among people (average people who happen to hold particular nationalities).
— Ze Mar 13, 07:15 AM #
I heard a story once about an academic conference where a speaker was addressing a large audience on an erudite subject (OK— you already know this is an apocryphal story). Anyhow, the speaker clasps his chest, groans and keels over. The moderator runs to the microphone and cries “is there a doctor in the house?!” The room falls silent. So there.
— Philip J Tramdack Mar 13, 07:31 AM #
German Universities and degrees are very very different from American Universities, and American degrees, American students take University level courses in Humanities, Social Sciences as Natural Scientists, and social scientists and people who study in the humanities take physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics and geology, which is not really possible in Germany. Many German and European Universities are NOT really universities at all but Technical High Schools. The students are not really university trained. They take one more year of high school, and think it is the same, but it is not since the teachers in high schools do not have PhD like they do at most USA universities. A German colleague of mine who got her PhD at the University of Chicago and now is a professor at a top rated Private Liberal Arts College in the States thinks the American system makes for much better generally educated students and scientists. The German and Europeans may be better technically trained, but a chemist or a physicist would not ever have the possibility to have taken university level psychology, anthropology, sociology and modern dance, which I was able to do while getting a BSc in the States, an MSc in Applied Mathematics and a PhD in Chemical Physics. Doing the equivalent of a 5 year Habilitation in Heidelberg after my PhD and two American postdocs, one in industry and one in a government lab, I see the advantages of both. The best education is to take the American undergraduate first 2 years (liberal arts education) and then do a MSc in either Heidelberg, Berlin or Munich. Then go back to the States for the PhD to take PhD and postdoc level course at either Standford, UCLA, University of Chicago, UIUC, Northwestern, Cal Tech or USC. The joint Chemical Physics program which Cal Tech, USC and UCLA have in Los Angeles is not possible anywhere in Europe. But then the graduate doctorate work in Europe is only research, and no courses. But they do have some summer and winter schools in Copenhagen, Helsinki, Stockholm, Oslo and Trieste, and Nato Workshops in the UK. But there are normally only for the elite. The average PhD in Europe does not have access to the PhD course in Los Angeles at UCLA, Cal Tech and USC or in Chicago at Northwestern, the University of Chicago, UIC and even down the freeway at UIUC. So do both and get the experience of both worlds. The best European scientists have spent time in the States and the best American scientists have spent some time in Europe.
— Karl Mar 13, 07:49 AM #
For those interested, you might like to read Paul Starr’s 20+ year old work entitled “The Social Transformation of American Medicine” where he discusses the political issues leading up to the use of the term “doctor” by physicians.
— Charles Mar 13, 07:53 AM #
The law referenced in this article is downright stupid. But, as noted in the article itself, it was changed – by the only people who could constitutionally change German law. (We call those people Germans.) What I find equally stupid — and offensive — are the German-bashing jokes in these postings. Posts have invoked linguistic and cultural stereotypes that are at least half a century old. Schultz and Colonel Klink? Come on! Next thing you know you will invoke equally distasteful Sambo references and use neighborhood English in an article about an African-American professor or Jose Jimenez references in an article about Mexican universities. If you are the holders of an American Ph.D. and you posted these kinds of messages, then you may have just legitimized the (now revoked) German law. You can do better than that, my esteemed American cronies . . . .
— Goethe Mar 13, 07:59 AM #
It is ironic that the Associated Press and the Chronicle also appear to believe that the term “doctor” should be reserved for holders of the undergraduate degree in medicine rather than holders of an earned academic doctorate! Perhaps physicians should be allowed to call themselves doctor only after they complete their graduate (residency) training.
— Lee C Mar 13, 08:41 AM #
Good question, #35. What about those who hold Juris Doctor degrees? Aren’t they technically ‘doctors,’ too? Or are they more properly labeled ‘attorney,’ just as a M.D. should be called ‘physician’ (and apparently not ‘doctor,’ in the views of some).
What’s in a degree with a ‘D’?
— JD Mar 13, 08:52 AM #
Be careful calling yourself “Mister” in Germany. It’s a manure spreader.
— comatus Mar 13, 09:00 AM #
The references to undergraduates in medicine being call “Doctor” are downright silly, especially since American universities do not award undergraduate degrees in medicine.
For the British Commonwealth countries that do, the title is conferred not by acquiring the undergraduate degree, but after completing almost six years of residencies and internships; and successfully completing the qualifying examinations from the respective Royal Societies of Medicine or Surgery.
— fedkatheconvict Mar 13, 09:02 AM #
Three perhaps still relevant comments:
1) the German university system sustains a critical rigor, at least in the humanities, unmatched elsewhere in the western world.
2)When employed as a visiting lecturer at a German university in the 90’s, my mail was once returned to sender by the university postal sorting office. Reason? Though the office knew that I was on staff, the letters were addressed to “Professor xxx,” and I didn’t officially (nein, nein) hold that title under German law.
3) The wife of such a one as #34 brings into Erscheinung is entitled to call herself “Frau Professor Doktor Doktor..” though having no academic affiliation or duty herself. Or, alternatively, “Herr Professor Doktor, Doktor, etc., etc.” for the stay-at-home husband in the affirmative action sector that German higher education long ago became.
— J.Elliott Mar 13, 09:06 AM #
In Russia, after their equivalent of a Bachelor, is the Magister, roughly a Masters degree, then the Kandidat. A Kandidat is mathematics from a Russian university is considered superior to an American Ph.D., while in, say, Sociology, the Ph.D. is considered much superior. It is only after completing a “second dissertation”, that a person may be awarded the Doktor, and the most prestigious title, “akademician” is awarded with admission into the national academy of science.
— Aron Mar 13, 09:20 AM #
To bring the absurdity of the law full circle, the first “German” university is no other than Karlova univerzita (Charles University) in Prague. PhD holders from that distinguished institution are honorarily considered to hold German degrees. Too bad those unrepentant Czechs continue to insist on speaking a Slavic tongue!
— RH Mar 13, 09:35 AM #
At least two people (BTW #35) and (JD #44)have commented on whether holders of the J.D. should be referred to as “Doctor” . The J.D. stands for “Juris Doctor” or “Doctor of Jurisprudence”. Holders of the J.D. traditionally do not use the title Doctor; we may use Esq. following our names in formal correspondence but many of us don’t bother. When I accepted a university faculty position, I tried to explain that J.D.‘s are traditionally not referred to as Doctor. I’ve given up. The university directory uses Dr. I use Ms. I’ll respond to colleagues and students whichever title of address they choose. But thehe incident that started this discussion suggests another and more intriguing question to me: who raised the issue with the police initially? Few police departments have time to look for obscure laws, so I wonder who brought the matter to their attention? Possibly an insecure colleague of the American Ph.D. holders?
— VKW Mar 13, 09:39 AM #
I have no doubt that the university from which I received my doctorate will, at the end of the day, not end up on their list of designated universities.
I think I will be boycotting the state of Thuringia.
— Stuart Dryer Mar 13, 09:41 AM #
If one is looking for an example of cheapening of the doctorate, one could make a case for the new-fangled PharmD.
— Stuart Dryer Mar 13, 09:43 AM #
Are we really such a prideful lot that a title should be so important? Why not just call each other by our first names. We’re all from the human family?
— David Mar 13, 09:56 AM #
To #46, in dental education, we call students who are studying for the DDS or DMD “undergraduates” even though they have already completed a 4-yr college degree. I imagine the same may be true in medicine. If they enter a specialty or general practice residency after receiving the DDS or DMD, we call them “post-grads.”
— Bill Mar 13, 09:56 AM #
My 2 cents! I have received a german doctorate degree in pharmaceutical sciences. I can write the title “ Dr. rer. nat.” which means the doctor of natural sciences. Each terminal doctorate degree (clinical or non-clinical) in German clearly distinguishes the recipient based on his/her subject/discipline,
such as a doctor of Law will be given a title of “Dr. jura”, a medical doctor will be a “Dr. med.” so is the other subject/disciplines.
I can go on.. Dr. theo, Dr. rer. poli, Dr. phil., Dr.-Ing (engineer).
I refrain myself from making any political comments
— Naushad Mar 13, 10:00 AM #
To #35 and #44, our provost refers to our registrar (a former attorney with a J.D.) as “Doctor”. All we can do is chuckle…
— LH Mar 13, 10:03 AM #
All of this reminds me of the story I heard a number of years ago. Seems the Dean of the School of Medicine at an American university approached the President and asked that the graduates of the Med School march across the stage one at a time and be hooded as were the recipients of the PhD during the institutions commencement ceremony. The President of the university dismissed the request with the statement that the difference between the MD and the PhD was simple. The PhDs were true scholars.
As to the practice of JDs being called “Doctor,” my experience is that this appears to be a common practice in HBCUs.
— GL Mar 13, 10:05 AM #
These actions by Germans are amuzing, sadly. Haven’t they learned anything during the past 70 years? Not a thing?
— James Mar 13, 10:10 AM #
As a graduate of UVA Law School, I can tell you that graduates fo our law school avoid the whole doctor question and follow the tradition laid down by Jefferson himself—we use Mister instead of Doctor. If it was good enough for TJ, it’s certainly good enough for us.
— Rex Mar 13, 10:15 AM #
Ah, vanity! Most of these posted comments have the same ring to me…. “I did a lot of work. When and where can I be publicly recognized for it? And who else should have the same recognition?” Honestly, folks. This German law, this story, and most of our silly comments (from all sides) are more about ego (be it national or personal) than anything. We are far too concerned with rank in academia. This was an interesting, tiny story about a law which is clearly being revised. Fascinating, then, that so many people should ask so many questions about it, and then SIGN those questions WITHOUT their titles!!! Enough already.
— Katie Mar 13, 10:21 AM #
“If one is looking for an example of cheapening of the doctorate, one could make a case for the new-fangled PharmD.”
The PharmD is a professional clinical doctorate degree awarded in pharmacy education. A student can receive it after successful completion of 4- year pharmacy program at a professionally and regionally accredited pharmacy college or school, which includes 3 didactic and 1 experiential (clinical rotation) years.
The student has to pass the national pharmacy board exam to qualiffy to practice in 50 US states. The student has to write the state board exams to become eligible to apply for a state licensure (RPh).
— Naushad Mar 13, 10:22 AM #
This German-American academic finds this exchange hilarious. The author of #45 may be amused by the (true) story of a discussion about changing the name of an institution to “Maryland Institute of Science and Technology.” Fortunately, one of its German professors intervened and the proposal was dropped.
— Don Langenberg Mar 13, 10:24 AM #
To #53., I think the issue is not of pride but the willingness to admit the distinction of others. On one hand, I increasingly see people grasping to claim the title (without having done the requisite work) of someone who has worked hard to attain academic training and demonstrate academic excellence. On the other hand, increasingly I see those who want to say that such training, insight, and refinement of the mind (if not the manners in all cases) is irrelevant and that we are all “equal,” which strains the meaning of that word politically and mathematically. J.D.s do three years of work that doesn’t even begin to cover a fraction of the law, and the work I did for mine is nothing compared to the work I did for my Ph.D. Nor did I have to produce a legal work of significance like the PhD dissertation. By the time an M.D. (from pediatricians to psychiatrists) has done 4 years of professional school and an intern year and a residency and perhaps a fellowship on top of that, I think calling him or her doctor is quite appropriate. As for the “new-fangled” degrees like the PharmD or other oddities like the EdD., etc., unless their acquisition demands the same rigor as the PHD, they should not share the same title. Title is not about pride but about rigor, commitment and accomplishment. And, the Chronicle needs to respect that in using the title of Dr. for PhDs as well.
— E Mar 13, 10:29 AM #
In response to #53, I understand what you mean about being so prideful but, my PhD from Walden University was so costly, I deserve to be referred to as “Doctor”. I would not have it any other way…
— ML Mar 13, 10:31 AM #
Regarding #62 – when I went to Helsinki to present at a conference while I was a grad student, I was warned not to take my favorite sweatshirt, which said ‘PITT’ across the front. Apparently it’s Swedish slang for a male reproductive organ, and in Helsinki people are equally conversant in Finnish, Swedish, and English.
— bee Mar 13, 11:02 AM #
Wow – what a great exercise in human social perspectives!
Once the title ‘Doctor’ became associated with an undergraduate curriculum (i.e. from medical schools), it was all downhill from there.
In the end, I consider that term to mean less than my PhD or Professor titles.
Around here, PNPs are termed ‘doctor’ by the lay public when talking to their (our) kids.
Soon, there will be a doctorate in architecture.
And so academic inflation continues.
— Stephen Mar 13, 11:03 AM #
Case in point:
Outgoing Hamburg State Secretary of Education, Jörg Dräger, the chief of all universities in this German state, was not allowed to call himself a “Dr.”
Unfortunately, he holds a Ph.D. from Cornell!
— Deutsch Mar 13, 11:17 AM #
Responding to #63 — Having earned an Ed.D. from the top school of education in the country (Harvard), if not the world, I can say with unwavering confidence that my training and program of study was just as rigorous as any other Ph.D. program. Sure, many schools have less than rigorous standards (even those awarding PhDs!); however, to characterize the degree as an “oddity” is a bit pompous and arrogant.
— Lonnie Mar 13, 11:20 AM #
Why is there a Ministry of Culture? Would Germans have Culture if it weren’t directed and regulated by a Ministry?
— tehag Mar 13, 11:30 AM #
#30 — Someone had to write in appreciation of your allusion! Reminds me of the immortal exchange in a Pertwee episode: “I’m told you’re some sort of doctor.” “My dear fellow, I am EVERY sort of doctor!”
— Aegina Mar 13, 11:30 AM #
When I’ve been in Germany for research, I have travelled on Nazi-era highways, and along Nazi-era railroad lines.
The problem with the law is not its provenance. It’s its silliness. American universities are the driving force in the academic world at the present. We’re not living in the world of the late 1800s, when little undergraduate institutions and brand new research schools were adopting the German model of graduate training. At that point in time, there may well have been questions about the quality of American PhDs. But if one holds a doctorate from an acredited US university today, it is hard to see why one needs to apologize,
GOETHE—You’ve missed the Big Point: In American academia, Europeans are fair game. Making fun of them, or Catholics or Evangelical Protestants, is not bigotry. Sorry, but just as you have rules regarding the use of titles, we have rules regarding protected and unprotected ethnic/religious groups.
So: Saying something nasty about a Muslim cleric=bigotry.
Calling Pope Benedict a Nazi=Funny.
I know it’s complicated. But if it’s worth our time to be plagued by historical guilt, then, dammit, it’s worth our time to do it right.
— Steve Mar 13, 11:32 AM #
Looks like lots of opinions in here…some humorous, some educated, some just down-right interesting to read.
While we are talking titles, I have a question for those wiser than me. What about the email signature that begin with one’s bachelors degree?
Saw one the other day:
Chris Pudding, BS, MBA, MSM, PhD
Poor taste or a sign of the title chasing times?
— D Mar 13, 12:40 PM #
Steve (#71) Thank you for clarifying the distinctive nature of American culture and American higher education for me. Despite the fact that: 1) I was born here (ergo, that makes me a citizen); 2) I have lived here my whole life; 3) I hold 3 degrees from American Universities; and, 4) I am finishing a 4th degree from an American University – a Ph.D. in some obscure topic that does not address the complexities of American Culture (we call it American Studies) –- I would have never picked up on these subtleties without your sage guidance. The bigger question here, Steve, is why would you think that I was not an American? Just because I take a different perspective? I suggest you take a look at America a little closer, Steve. There is no monolithic culture to which we all ascribe. That concept died somewhere around 1965 if not before – along with the consensus history approach. So these “rules” of which you write are not universal in America. Maybe in your blinder-wearing slice of it. But not in mine – nor in many others’. And from my perspective, lack of respect is lack of respect – regardless at whom it is directed. There is one thing on which you and I seem to agree. If we must spend time being plagued by historical guilt, we must do it right. And doing it right means that you don’t make blind assumptions about people (like you did with me) and you don’t throw out names in public spaces. You have first amendment rights Steve – I know this because I taught government to high school juniors and seniors. (We “non-Americans” are often asked to do this as a test of our knowledge.) Be critical, disagree, but do it with respect. And calling the Pope a Nazi in a public venue or subscribing to racial or ethnic tropes under the auspices of “its funny” is not respect – it is the basis of the kind sentiments that made the Nazis the loathsome bunch that they were/are . . .
— Goethe Mar 13, 12:43 PM #
Doesn’t the Chronicle refuse to use Dr. for those with non-medical doctorates? This ‘name calling’ is part of the very strong undercurrent of anti-intellectualism and just plain aggressiveness in the US. I have several times had students who, after they received their grades, suddenly decide to call me Ms. when previously they had called me Dr. To one I said, “Your grade isn’t final yet.” and she immediately apologized for calling me Ms.! I asked a male student, who did the same thing, how many male Ph.D.s he called Mr. His chagrinned answer was “None.”
From what I have heard, the newer designation of J.D. was to allow financial aid to be offered for the third year of law school — a ‘terminal degree’ i.e., the ‘D’ allowed them to do that — but the recipient is not considered a ‘doctor’.
And to those who claim that ‘doctor’ should only be used for physicians for emergency health reasons — most of the non-cardiology specialists will not be much help, nor will they want to help, if someone has an MI. A Ph.D. friend of mine had an MI while doing statistical analysis with a psychiatrist — I spent quite a bit of time with the very traumatized psychiatrist who admitted that he hadn’t been able to remember what to do. So the health risk point is moot.
— Cathie M. Currie Mar 13, 12:47 PM #
The source of this article is the March 10 issue of Der Spiegel, which in fact does refer to the law originating in 1939. Thuringen would have assumed laws at reunification without reconsidering every one.
Also, according to Spiegel, The police did not initiate this action against Baldwin, but were responding to a charge made by another person who had not been able to use his foreign doctor title.
I too find the Professor Doctor Doctor thing a bit much. In my experience, it is use mostly in formal academic situations where one is listing credentials or in obits. The biggest exception I have noted is among people who want to get their letters to the editor published and who are obviously opining about something outside their field.
— vb Mar 13, 12:55 PM #
Austrians take even greater pride in their academic titles.
High school teachers with master’s (Magister) degrees are given the title Professor. Herr Professor (“Herrfessor”) Magister Schmidt.
Engineers with a four year degree will include the title in their business cards and email signatures.
While performing field research in Austria for my own dissertation, I received mail from an Austrian governmental agency addressed to Herr BA MA Kleinberg.
— David Kleinberg Mar 13, 01:21 PM #
Hold on a second here. What about Dr. Strangelove?
— Client #9 Mar 13, 01:28 PM #
Someone seemed to think #5 is a German. However, I think s/he is a non-German English speaker with a sarcastic wit. ‘Vergnügen’ is misspelled, but maybe not purposefully, or…? … I remember someone saying that it was hard to believe I have a Ph.D., because I’m so much fun to be with. Hm. (And, yes, according to a 1907 grammar book, you can indeed use a preposition with which to end a sentence.) Smiles to all of us.
— Goethe's Muse Mar 13, 01:42 PM #
It’s actually worse than this. Several years ago, the Univ. Freiburg expelled all foreign nationals from their PhD programs because they didn’t have German BS/BA degrees.
— Bob Mar 13, 01:58 PM #
On US MSM TV, announcers are apparently barred from calling a Conservative or Republican with a real PhD from a real University “Doctor” but will fawn over some Democrat or Liberal with an Ed.D from a diploma mill by calling him or her “Doctor”.
I went to law school and all I got was this crummy JD & no one calls me “Doctor”! I’m a victim!
Then, of course there’s Dr Laura & Dr Phil….
PS to #16: Hate to be pedantic, especially since I’m not a PhD, but there are two “rrs” in the German word for Mr. Great comment tho.
#32, Freudian Slip on your part. You were apparently thinking of “Californicated” a derogatory term used to describe California’s current state of being.
— TomCom Mar 13, 02:09 PM #
So long as the author of this blog is going to get upset about the provenance of the law, why not get history straight: all existing German laws were dashed in May 1945. The new German Basic Law was written in the 3 western occupation zones in 1949 and was vetted by the Allies before being passed/accepted. So, not only was the law as it stood (until recently) written in the 1940s, but the Americans, British, and French were okay with it when it was passed. The state of Thuringia did not exist at that time, and the law didn’t apply there because it was the Soviet zone.
Thanks anyways, though, for confirmation that everything newsworthy in Germany is related to the Nazi period. Now, let’s find a way to make everything newsworthy in the U.S. related to slavery, or the genocide of Native Americans…
— chambana Mar 13, 03:06 PM #
The dean in my college has multiple bachelor’s and master’s degrees, and he lists all those letters behind his name: Dean (insert name here), BS, BS, MS, MS, PhD. I can’t help laughing when I see that.
— H Mar 13, 03:18 PM #
Whenever someone calls me Doctor, he’s about to give me an opportunity to make a tax-deductible contribution. I have no use for it.
— Bob Hawkins Mar 13, 03:19 PM #
Re question 20, there was a Nazi war criminal who was called Dr. Dr. He had an MD and a Ph.D. Didn’t Mengle have both? Was he a doctor squared?
— Mark Mar 13, 03:50 PM #
Titles are dumb anyway.
XoXo,
Jesse L Smith III, Esq.
— Jesse from Tulsa Mar 13, 04:05 PM #
It is my opinion that those Ph.D.‘s who are the most vociferous about being addressed as “Doctor” usually derive from the least prestigious/rigorous degree program.
And then, let’s talk about educators with a Ph.D. They are simply the worst, next to degree mill “graduates”.
— varanginguard Mar 13, 04:19 PM #
My grandfather, who was an orthopaedist, once attempted to chide my mother on the use of “Dr.” by mere Ph.D. holders. My mother, a good corn-fed Midwestern German girl, politely observed to said ancestor that Ph.D.s were “doctors” when surgeons were barbers. The conversation flagged after that.
— Countrylawyer Mar 13, 04:26 PM #
Doktor Doktor = pair-a-docs=paradox
— JS Mar 13, 04:40 PM #
I just came in here to sing, “They call him. . . Mister Love!”
Hey, #86, did you even scroll up and read the article? The guy isn’t “vociferous” about insisting on a title. Contrarywise, it’s the polizei who are getting all vocifous.
— Gene Simmons Mar 13, 05:03 PM #
It’s just an other example of the specific German way of life:
arrogance, and the paranoid belief that they are the center of the Universe
I don’t understand why these capable guys don’t come home and continue their research here; it’s hard to belief they get more money there than here.
— Dr. Anthony Malczanek Mar 13, 05:36 PM #
Lighten up, chambana (#81). We get a lot of news about Germany that isn’t related to the Nazi era. This particular article just happened to reference it.
— Tracy G. Mar 13, 06:06 PM #
The stationer who printed our wedding invitations tried to convince us that I was not entitled to be “Dr.” as I merely Ph.D. in Chemistry (from a top US school). I wouldn’t want any confusion on the part of guests that I was there to treat their medical ailments. Nothing like attitude from a minimum wage worker about the use of a title.
— Dr. Anonymous Mar 13, 07:30 PM #
I watched with disgust as Bill O’Reilly obsequeously addressed a rabid race pimp as “doctor” during an on-air interview last week. Such folk generally DEMAND that they be addressed such; IOW they DEMAND to be addressed as intellectual and social superiors. It wouldn’t do me any good to inform them that I too am a “doctor”, a Juris Doctor, and that if they want to play that stupid game, so can I, because we all KNOW that lawyers, even recovering lawyers like me, are scum!
— Anna Keppa Mar 13, 07:35 PM #
My wife and I made an agreement after I received my doctorate: I would only use the title when I’m applying for an academic position, writing for exam copies of books or trying to get a good table in a restaurant.
— Donald Winters Mar 13, 09:27 PM #
I’m a (medical) doctor, and outside of the health care setting, I don’t much like for people to call me by my title. It seems stiff, and in a social or commercial setting it draws the unwanted attention of stockbrokers, fund-raisers, and other glad-handers. I was buying a car once when my dear wife let the salesman know I was a doctor, and I nearly blew a gasket.
In my experience, when an individual (or his wife) loudly insists on his being addressed as “Doctor”, he is almost certainly a chiropractor.
— Chris Mar 13, 09:43 PM #
The real ‘doctors’ are those with Ph Ds. Excellent (and rich) tho they may be, most physicians only have a Bachelors or Masters degree.
— Peter Mar 13, 10:33 PM #
I work in the field of medical education in the United States and I hold a Ph.D. in Quantitative Psychology. I have noticed that at all the psychometric AND medical education conferences I have attended, both Ph.D.s and MDs use the title “Dr.” We also use those titles on formal occasions (i.e., committee meetings) within our organization. Socially, however, I don’t use the title “Dr.”, but when I taught I certainly used it in the classroom. And I always thought the Dutch academic title of “Professor Doctor” for those with Ph.D.s in my field had a nice ring to it.
— Kimberly Mar 13, 11:17 PM #
Actually we PhD’s are the only Doctors. Those other guys are just physicians.
— Gary Mar 13, 11:50 PM #
After Isaac Asimov was awarded his Ph.D. in biochemistry, he was assigned to teach a course with a lot of medical students enrolled. On his first day, one of them asked him “Are you a real doctor, or a Ph.D.?”
— Rich Rostrom Mar 14, 02:20 AM #
To correct several of the errors that have appeared above (I read them all, as apparently some have not): The title Doctor goes back to the medieval University where the title was used for anyone qualified to be considered a teacher (again, doctor is the actor form from the past particple of the Latin verb docere, to teach). Note again, historically, that the highest of all doctorates was the STD (Doctor of Sacred Theology) followed by the “hand-maiden,” the Doctor of Philosophy. At that time all non-STD doctorates were considered to be doctorates of philosophy since philosophy refers to the scholar’s love of worldly [not used in a pejorative sense] wisdom. Only later on were the so-called professional doctorates created, technically a step-lower than the the STD and the PhD, apparently since the first two were considered to be teachers and scholars of God and earthly wisdom. The later additions were considered to be for non-scholarly, professional practice (not a bad thing, with teaching even included as a possibility, such as in a Medical School faculty).
Depending upon the stipulations of the particular program in modern academe, anyone who has completed three years of study beyond the Bachelors degree and passed the comprehensive exams for that field deserves to be considered qualified as a teacher (by knowledge, if not teaching ability). So a Doctor of Medicine (MD) or Law (whether JD or LLD) or any of the others including EdD or PharmD or PhD is a Doctor, a valid recognition of academic accomplishment and skill/education (learning). Maybe a PhD is considered more rigorous because it is a research-oriented skill (many PhDs want to do only research, not teach, but their title is what it is). It is up to the individual whther he/she wants to use it or be addressed by it; but since it has been earned, it belongs to the individual. Note too the distinction of the earned and honorary title. Whenever I meet a Doctor, even if I call him/her mainly and usually by first-name, I make a point to use the proper title at least once in a conversation as a mark of respect for the personal accomplishment that I know the honorific signifies. Note that even though I am Ole (over 60) and Perfesser (a full-professor by longevity and scholarship), I still say what I do as an ABD who will eventually earn either a PhD or an EdD (both legitimate doctorates involving long-term study and scholarship).
P.S. I think that we might all conclude that this discussion, while adjudged by some to be much about nothing, brings out what is greatest about true academe – serious (and even a little frivolous) and learned discourse.
— Ole Professer Mar 14, 03:00 AM #
Maybe, to be frivolous, as “less” than a PhD, I should call myself, Professor X, AAS, BS, MA, MS. :-)
— Ole Professer Mar 14, 03:06 AM #
#76, follow-up: I don’t know if this is still the case but at least until a decade ago in Austria, granted academic titles legally became part of your proper name – not merely a title. Means you had to include it on govm’t forms, ID, etc.
— corcoran Mar 14, 04:48 AM #
With regard to #4, #43, and #86 (at least), it might be borne in mind that many American colleges continue to have numbers of tenured faculty who do not hold the terminal degree (which, in most academic fields, is the Ph.D.). In such an environment, one has traditionally been referred to as “Dr.” to denote one’s holding the degree. A colleague at a research university responded to this by saying, “Oh, the old system”—but I’m willing to bet it will persist long after I am retired.
The distinction of Professor vs. Doctor is also made in the story of a faculty member who snapped back at being addressed: “Don’t call me ‘Doctor’—I have a job!”
— James McNelis Mar 14, 05:26 AM #
In the UK, there’s a strange courtesy in the fact that consultants in Medicine are call Mister rather than Doctor. Rather confusing to many visitors to Harley Street seeking treatment from a top Doctor.
— Doctor Dave Mar 14, 09:09 AM #
Even after 3 decades in higher education, I never cease to be amazed at the way some people are hung up on the title “Doctor”. In my own discipline, many professors are considered qualified to teach by virtue of experience in industry, and typically do not hold a PhD degree. Still, many students address them as “Doctor”. Why? Because some PhDs get very upset when they are not addressed as such, and the students don’t want to make a mistake and offend a PhD credentialed teacher who has the power to reduce their grade. So, they automatically refer to all professors as “Doctor” to reduce the risk.
A corollary to this is the question of what do the students really respect. The answer is competence, not titles. My students know in a heartbeat when they’re being fed nonsense, and it really irritates them to be taught how to do something by someone who hasn’t demonstrated the ability to do it.
— Professor Mar 14, 09:20 AM #
#2 TOUCHE’ #16 OH THATS SO RICH.
— STEVE Mar 14, 09:36 AM #
I’m open to learning from my “betters”. If anyone wishes me to admit my error in pronouncement, please feel free to post a link to your doctoral thesis, so I can get a better idea just how your original work has added to the general scholarship of your specialty.
I don’t mind addressing those who deserve it as “Doctor”, but just possessing a scrap of vellum with some pretty calligraphy inked onto it doesn’t justify it to me.
It’s like the old demand to have “Dr” as your title on a plane ticket. All you were doing was creating a false impression upon the flight crew. In a real emergency, how many chemists, mathematicians and historians were going to be asked to help out with medical situations? How many could actually help?
— varangianguard Mar 14, 10:02 AM #
Although I do not have a law degree, there appears to be a historical error in the original story. The law about titles goes back well before the Nazi era, and was part of a much larger legal and social phenomenon, namely the crime of “impersonating public officials” (Amtsanmaßung). Over the centuries it was introduced in the law codes of the German states to protect the integrity of public offices (Ämter) as they were created.
The formulations already contained in Prussia’s famous law code (Allgemeines Landrecht) from the end of the 18th century, were made more precise in the Prussian Penal Code of 14 April 1851. The former prosecuted Amtsanmaßung only when fraud or private damages also were involved; otherwise the crime was prosecuted under civil law. By the mid-19th century in Prussia, the crime was situated in Section 7, “Crimes and Offences against Public Order.” “Impersonating a Public Official” was said to be “whoever, without authorization, undertakes to exercise the duties of a public office or to commit any act which may only be done by authority of a public office.”
This definition was taken over as Paragraph 132 of the German Penal Code of 15 May 1871, and remained unchanged until the Nazi era – when, if the crime involved impersonating a police officer, the death penalty could be (and was) used as a sentence for the crime.
Paragraph 132a deals specifically with “misuses of titles” including falsely claiming academic degrees, honors, job titles, such as being a medical doctor. Such laws exist all over the world and are not specifically German. What is interesting about the present law, and what would seem to call for the dismissal of the charges against Professor Baldwin, is that what is criminalized in that law is the “unauthorized” use of titles, professional designations, etc. There is nothing in the law that specifically allows Germans, but forbids non-Germans from using a doctor title they have been awarded by a recognized university. Thus regardless of nationality, anyone should be able to use their doctor titles when they have earned them and are thus “authorized” to use them. (See StGB, § 132a Mißbrauch von Titeln, Berufsbezeichnungen und Abzeichen)
— robert Mar 14, 10:49 AM #
Over 100 postings (rantings) on a person’s title! Let’s get over ourselves, OK?
— JG Mar 14, 10:49 AM #
I find it interesting to see all of these people in this blog falling all over themselves trying to downgrade Ph.Ds and the fact that some call themselves doctors. As an African American educator, I find that since there are so few of us, the use of the title helps to 1) let people know we indeed have the credentials to teach that we speak of 2) it stops me from being disespected by staff and students who just assume I could not possibly be faculty. I rarely use the title outside of the classroom, but I do use it when I go to give presentations and sit on community boards. Most know that the Ph.D means I am not an MD. In the African American community we use titles more than others, sometimes to our detriment, but I find its usage functional.
— Liz Desnoyers-colas Mar 14, 11:14 AM #
Part of the issue here is the historical question of whether to go by professor or doctor in the US. The latter is used more in the American South because there, historically, many colleges and universities employed people without PhDs as professors. Thus in the South it was more important to be recognized for having a PhD than simply a teaching job. In the North, particularly in places like Boston where everyone has a PhD but none of them can find a teaching job, it was more important to be called professor because it showed you found employment in your field. These linguistic preferences persist.
— Neil Jumonville Mar 14, 11:29 AM #
Part of the difference between professor and doctor and respective institutions involves geography (south vs north) but chronology as well. Private Universities founded long before the move to public education called instructors professors because not everybody had a doctorate in the 19th century. With the expansion in public education in the 20th century, Doctor took over because most had the PhD.
— MC Mar 14, 11:43 AM #
For anybody who needs to rationalize the need for a title, I hold that Jan Doe, Ph.D. should not only suffice, but be more descriptive as well.
— varangianguard Mar 14, 11:58 AM #
I wonder if the high and mighty Germans would be going after a Muslim who called himself “doctor” with a degree from a Saudi University?
— dennis Mar 14, 12:01 PM #
Hmm… I will be a doctor in cognitive science (very rare program) in about a year or so, and come from a background in philosophy, psychology, computer science, and neuroscience.
I have been at university for a very long time, and have earned my BA, MA, and soon a PhD. So you bet your arse I’ll have everyone call me doctor when I’m done, I’ll sign everything with Dr, and I expect not to be called Prof xxx if I stay in academics. Incidentally, the “professor” designation is for your JOB, your profession, but your title, your credentials, are of being a doctor in something…
People love to confuse those two, and I’m sorry, while I disagree with some posters on the matter of medical doctors not deserving the title (I believe they do deserve it), they are certainly not any more doctors than anyone else with a PhD. They just happen to be doctors in medicine, and their jobs are usually that of being physicians.
I love German culture and actually learned to speak German (through my studies in philosophy), I thought I might apply for jobs there. But with this farce, this mockery, screw them. As long as they do not acknowledge doctors from other countries, I will not be demoted socially and professionally, looked upon as a second-class citizen or even criminal (!)
I am Canadian by the way, our universities are no worse than any others, and apparently being non-European (and soon, non-American from a recognized university) is a dangerous thing in Deutschland.
Nice one, you civil servants and police watchdogs. Sieg Heil, I salute your upcoming victory 70 years later.
Sylvain Pronovost
PhD candidate in Cognitive Science, Carleton University
Human Factors Psychology Consultant, CAE PS
— Sylvain Pronovost Mar 14, 01:37 PM #
116. Craig Whitlock in a front page story in the Post today quoted a Culture Ministry source thus: “We spoke with the parties involved and determined they had no criminal intent,” he said.
There’s a dissertation I suppose in comparative histories of persons using Dr. criminally.
Although this law may seem absurd in a globalized world, Whitlock explains it thus: The proper use of honorifics is no small matter in Germany, a society given to formality where even longtime neighbors insist on addressing each other using their surnames. Those with advanced degrees like to show them off, and it is not uncommon to earn more than one. A male faculty member with two PhDs can fully expect to be called “Herr Professor Dr. Dr. Schmidt,” for example.
see Washingtonpost.com
— nathan Mar 14, 01:49 PM #
All hail government
— dumb arse Mar 14, 02:04 PM #
It is perfectly acceptable and ethical for JDs to use the title of “Doctor.” A JD is a professional doctorate. Most lawyers do not use the title to avoid confusion in court cases with MDs and PhDs who are often expert witnesses. Outside the legal profession, however, there is no reason for a JD to not take the title of Doctor when other holders of professional doctorates are allowed to do so.
Several state ethics boards, along with the ABA, have looked at this issue and find no problem with a JD taking the title of Doctor. Remember, not all lawyers are JDs. Some states such as Virginia do not require a JD or even a law degree of any kind to practice law.
With the exception of a law school perhaps, in any university or corporate setting a JD would and should be permitted to use the title she has earned, just as would be the case with the holder of any professional doctorate.
WJJ
— WJJ Mar 14, 02:13 PM #
Well, I don’t like Germans either (and I AM from Germany), but this is about WORKING over there with doctorates from other countries (any non-EU foreign country). It’s not about the U.S. per se.
What you would have to do for a permanent position (and the right to call yourself what they call you at home) is to fill out a form at your state’s Bildungsbehörde and you’d get the right to be called “Doctor”.
EVERYBODY knows that and everybody is doing it, and I don’t know why after 10+ years that dude still hasn’t done it. I don’t give my students 10 years to turn in their papers.
The process is intended to prevent people with degrees from Mickey Mouse universities to take them to Germany.
Same thing in the U.S., by the way; two of my German buddies brought their Ph.D. degrees from Switzerland and had to show that it was a legitimate degree. And don’t even try to call yourself ‘Doctor’ with a doctorate from Berne University in St. Kitts and Nevis…
— Doctor Mar 14, 03:26 PM #
To JG, the person who wrote comment 109 – this is exactly what news blogs are for. Don’t try to stop it (you’re obviously reading it). I’m glad to see everyone weighing in with their opinions, and I find it fascinating to see what issue(s) draw all us academics out of our shells. What a great way to finally fully utilize the CHE’s news blog feature!
— Socrates Mar 14, 07:28 PM #
I find it interesting to see that academia can be every bit as petty in German as in the US.
Someone at the University had to have informed the police – rather than simply telling the US faculty about the local usage of “Doktor”.
— Dobra David Mar 14, 08:38 PM #
Over a hundred blog entries just to discuss the significance of using the title of doctor? Get lives, folks. As Thoreau once said: “Let every sheep where its own skin.”
— Donald Winters Mar 14, 10:34 PM #
Speaking from an “editorial” perspective: Of the many colleagues I have in scholarly publishing who hold well-earned Ph.D.s, few if any choose to call themselves “doctor” (doing so at their own risk), and rarely do they have that term applied to them, even by others in fields in which they hold those degrees. Most of the time when people call me “Dr. X,” I tell them to stick out their tongues and say “ah.”
— mister doctor director Mar 14, 11:17 PM #
It’s Germany… who gives a crap?
— Maynotlast Mar 15, 12:29 AM #
#106 — IT’S FROM STEVE . . . WHO GIVES A CRAP?
— Goethe Mar 15, 11:34 AM #
it’s a mute point. The German legislative body “Kultusministerkonferenz” has in the meantime decided (at a convention in Berlin a few days back) to give all US doctorate degrees a carte blanche in Germany, you don’t have to get accreditation of equivalence anymore. In the US, you still have to do that as a foreigner… even with doctoral degrees of any acronym from Oxford, or ETH, or Heidelberg… difference being, that in the US equivalence accreditations for academic positions (usually required) are done by private companies. WHAT THE…
— corcoran Mar 15, 05:47 PM #
regulatory, not legislative, sorry
— corcoran Mar 15, 05:51 PM #
Here the complete quote of the new ruling:
5. Regelung der Führung ausländischer Doktorgrade
Da es verschiedentlich zu Anzeigen wegen angeblich missbräuchlicher Führung von Doktorgraden gekommen ist, wird die Führung von ausländischen Doktorgraden neu geregelt: Inhaber des Doktorgrades „Doctor of Philosophy“ – Abk.:“Ph.D“ von Universitäten der sog. Carnegie-Liste der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika können anstelle der im Herkunftsland zugelassenen oder nachweislich allgemein üblichen Abkürzung die Abkürzung „Dr.“ jeweils ohne fachlichen Zusatz und Herkunftsbezeichnung führen. Das Sekretariat der Kultusministerkonferenz wird beauftragt, hinsichtlich der Staaten, bei denen der Doktor-Titel ohne fachlichen Zusatz, jedoch mit Herkunftsbezeichnung geführt werden muss (Australien, Israel, Japan, Kanada, Russland), eine Liste von Hochschulen vorzulegen, bei denen analog verfahren werden kann. link
— corcoran Mar 15, 06:03 PM #
First very rough translation:
“5. Ruling on the use of foreign academic doctoral titles
Because of several incidents of formal complaints about supposedly wrongful use of doctoral titles, the use of foreign doctoral titles is revised: Holders of the doctoral degree “doctor of philosophy” – acronym: “Ph.D” from universities on the so called Carnegie list of the United States of America can – instead of the in the country of granting legally used or demonstrably commonly used acronym – use the abbreviation “Dr.” without subject appended and indication of origin, respectively. [gee… loooong sentence there]
The secretary of the Kultusministerkonferenz is charged with producing a list of universities that can receive analog treatment, with regards to countries where the doctoral title has to be used without subject appended but indication of origin (Australia, Israel, Japan, Canada, Russia).”
— corcoran Mar 15, 06:20 PM #
Bubba speaks.. dear #37 you are definitely an under achiever.. if yopur a loser stay off the blog..
— Buibba Mar 15, 06:34 PM #
The root question underlying all this nonsense is: who gives a rat’s ass?
— Donald Winters Mar 15, 09:14 PM #
I notice now that the comments have stopped, right about the same time that we started seeing comments like, “Wow, 100 plus postings! Get a life, people!” What a shame that an issue which excites so many to respond eventually gets shut down by people who “don’t give a rats ass” and therefore think that no one else should either.
— Socrates Mar 17, 04:04 PM #
Dear #40, I’ve never heard of a “technische Oberschule” being called a university.
Are you mistranslating “Hochschule” as “high school”? You speak highly of Caltech, but its German name would be “California technische Hochschule”, like those of ETH and KTH.
As an aside, the fact that a German chemical ecologist may not have the opportunity to study modern dance doesn’t seem a great failing of their system…
— LA Mar 18, 12:23 PM #
Hey #59, some JDs call themselves Ms, Miss, and even Mrs.
— TLM Mar 19, 11:23 PM #
Ole Perfesser, thank so much for making the much needed point that doctor does not equate to medical doctor. Therefore, all those who think only medical doctors are “real doctors” might need to read up on the orgin of the term. It has to do with distinguishing a level of expertise in a field.
— umdgrad Mar 24, 04:09 PM #
Not to “nit-pick” Lonnie, but the top education school in the country is Teacher’s College Columbia University. Not all things Harvard are #1…
— umdgrad Mar 24, 04:10 PM #
My Swiss friends, fined for hanging their laundry 5 minutes beyond the appointed time—while the state apparatus was complicit in mass killings by nearby nations. This is the art of mastery of the petty while leaving the vital and important to rot—an extreme form of personality and social powerlessness found in many cultures and nations around the world.
— Richard Tabor Greene Mar 25, 07:11 AM #
Professionally, many people in healthcare who do not possess doctoral-level training call themselves “Dr.”- such as podiatrists and optometrists, so the title doesn’t really have much meaning.
And while some states might allow JD’s to use the title “Dr.” many do not- because medical doctors are very frequently called as expert witnesses and sometimes even as defendents. It can confuses jurors and judges.
Socially, Miss Manners maintains that the title should be reserved for medical doctors, dentist and veterinarians for the reason that people really do want to know if there is a doctor around in case of medical emergency.
— Dan Mar 26, 05:56 PM #
THE DOCTOR
Nowadays there’s little meaning
For a person to be gleaning
When a man attaches “Doctor” to his name
He may be a chiropractor
Or a painless tooth extractor
He’s entitled to the title just the same.
Or perhaps he is a preacher
Or a lecturer or teacher,
Or an expert who cures chickens of the pip;
He may keep a home for rummies,
Or massage fat people’s tummies,
Or specialize in ailments of the hip.
Everybody is a “doctor,”
From the backwoods herb concocter
To the man who takes bunions from your toes;
From the frowning dietitian
To the snappy electrician
Who shocks you loose from all the body’s woes.
So there’s very little meaning
-Author UnknownFor a sufferer to be gleaning
When a man attaches “Doctor” to his name.
He may pound you, he may starve you,
He may cut your hair or carve you,
You have got to call him Doctor all the same!
— Vic Ogilvie Mar 26, 11:23 PM #
I volunteer in the evenings and on weekends as an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT). If I allowed anyone outside of my day job to call me doctor there would be a world of confusion.
By the way, if you are in public place and someone has chest pain and trouble breathing, ask if there is an EMT in the house. We actually know how to treat the patient in the field and how to get to the nearest hospital emergency department.
— Bill Mar 28, 10:00 AM #
Boy, I can’t wait to finish my PhD so I can write a long letter to the German embassy about absolutely nothing and then sign it with delight: Doctor Jack Mac, Veteran of Foreign Wars and Baron of Visalia, California.
— Jack Mac Mar 28, 12:55 PM #
In my book only those who complete dissertations have the right to be called Doctor. Medical Doctors, Lawyers, Optometrist, Dentist, etc should not the right to use the title, By no means. They have a non research professional degree, not a research degree. However, someone should call the German Law into question. It seems to be a waste of time and resources to arrest these people, fine then, and send them to jail.
— Aravind Sloan Mar 31, 05:32 PM #
#119: “The process is intended to prevent people with degrees from Mickey Mouse universities to take them to Germany.”
HEY! I have a PhD in Advanced Ride and Waterslide Engineering from Disney Poytech, and I’ll be damned if I won’t wear my robe and ears proudly!
— Tom Apr 1, 04:55 PM #
Reading all this reminds me of the writings of Stephen Leacock: ‘I was soon appointed to a Fellowship in political economy, and by means of this and some temporary employment by McGill University, I survived until I took the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in 1903. The meaning of this degree is that the recipient of instruction is examined for the last time in his life, and is pronounced completely full. After this, no new ideas can be imparted to him.’
Preface: Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town
— Professor John Collins Apr 2, 02:48 AM #
Not all physicians are doctors of medicine. Here in Australia, they aren’t. So there is no confusion between doctor and physician, as in the States. And the German doctoral system is far harder than the American one, and definitely harder than the Australian one!
— Katja Apr 3, 05:25 PM #
I actually worked in collaboration with the German Polizei for many years and I can assure you from experience
…they truely do not have anything better to do.
— Dangerous Apr 3, 07:39 PM #
Heaven is when:
The chefs are French
The mechanics are German
The lovers are Italian
The police are British
And everything is organized by the Swiss
Hell is when:
The chefs are British
The mechanics are French
The lovers are Swiss
The police are German
And everything is organized by the Italians
— Dangerous Apr 3, 08:01 PM #
To Jack who wrote:
“And to #5 – if you don’t like Americans – stay off our blogs!”
I did not know that the 1st Amendment only applies to those who agree with us.
— Ian Apr 4, 11:14 AM #
Frankly, I’m getting tired of people who seem to think that Phds shouldn’t be calling themselves “Doctor” because certain people (presumably those needing emergency medical care) might mistake them for physicians. To be honest, I couldn’t care less if they hold false assumptions about the the proper use of titles. The fact is, the use of the title “Doctor” has a long history and precedes the emergence of the modern health care system. And am I the only one to think that the underlying logic here is really a non sequitur – if this “Doctor” can’t treat human patients, why should that matter? Wait..I can “treat” the neutrinos – whatever that means (I’m a physicist), can these so-called medical “doctors” do the same?
— seanbek Apr 6, 08:48 AM #
The legal diplomas are confusing because not-so-long ago (at least from my demographic perspective) JDs were LLBs and following that one could strive for an LLM or even an SJD. So in theory having become a “Doctor” in the field you could advance to a master’s degree and subsequently a “second” doctorate. Most LLM programs in the U.S. are virtually entirely populated by foreigners for whom their first law degree was an undergraduate bachellor’s and for whom the LLM has great practical utility. I find the JD mildly silly as a “doctorate,” but since lawyers write the rules. . .
— jimbob Apr 7, 03:45 PM #