January 16, 2008

Mars Hill Graduate School Settles Former Faculty Member's Bias Lawsuit

We didn’t do anything wrong, but here’s $300,000 anyway.

That seems to be the message from Mars Hill Graduate School. The Seattle-based Christian institution recently agreed to pay that not-insignificant sum to a former female faculty member and Mars Hill co-founder who alleged harassment and discrimination in a lawsuit, according to an article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

In 2005 the faculty member, Heather Parkinson-Webb, filed for divorce from Kirk Webb, who was also a founder of the school. Subsequently, her contract was not renewed. Mr. Webb has also since left Mars Hill.

In a statement, Mars Hill admitted no wrongdoing but said a settlement was necessary because a trial would have been a “distraction.” —Thomas Bartlett

Comments

1. Is Mars Hill not a Christian based graduate school? If it is a Christian institution, then does it not follow the Bible as its Authority? If it follows the Bible as its Authority, then should it not require all faculty to be Christian and follow that same Authority? Did not Jesus say “divorce is wrong except for marital unfaithfulness” (Matthew 5:32)? If Heather and Kirk were divorced for any reason other than marital unfaithfulness, then both of them should have lost their jobs. If one cheated on the other, then that person who cheated should lose his/her job.

   My second point is that believers, Christians who are under the Authority of Christ and His Scripture, are not to sue Christians (1 Corinthians 6:1-8).

   I don’t know the facts of the case because of insufficient reporting, but I do know that divorce is always messy, that God hates it (Malachi 2:16), and that lawsuits between believers is wrong.

   — Ryan Faust    Jan 17, 10:33 AM    #

2. I am fascinated by the above. Ryan…21st Century? Civil Rights? Feminism? Empathy for harassed people? Any of this a-ringin’-a-bell?

   — History Professor    Jan 17, 11:40 AM    #

3. Jesus also told us to pluck out our eyes if we looked at anyone with lust in our hearts. All the faithful Christians I know have taken that one with a grain of salt, too.

   — Bible Spice    Jan 17, 12:11 PM    #

4. The King James version does not mention divorce in the cited text. It just implies that the husband makes the wife an adulterer is he “puts her away” for any other reason. It doesn’t say anything about losing jobs, kicking people out of church, etc. Where is all the mercy and forgiveness? Where is the support for a couple who are obviously in a lot of pain? Who decided what all these words or phrases mean? Who is passing judgement when we were told not to? Just some thoughts.

   — Dodd    Jan 17, 12:30 PM    #

5. As a early 00’s graduate of this school, I applaud the court’s decision. At last, this institution is being held accountable for at least 1 of its plethora of problems. For example, after a mere 10 years, only 1 cofounder remains – all others have left – & hardly on the best of terms. Another departed cofounder is on his 3rd marriage (at last count), forced out only when his behavior threatened the school’s initial accreditation attempts. Dig deeper, media, and you will find scandals and coverups galore…

   — grad of Mars Hill Graduate School    Jan 17, 02:07 PM    #

6. I agree with the post above. The response of the administration here does not pass the “smell test.” Where is their honesty, humility and accountability to their constituency?

   — -a former student at Mars Hill Graduate School    Jan 17, 03:52 PM    #

7. It should be noted that the settlement wasn’t the court’s decision, but rather an agreement made by the school’s insurance company and Ms. Parkinson-Webb’s attorneys. Having received the school’s correspondence to graduates, I appreciate the honesty, humility and accountabilty reflected there. I hope that the school, its student’s and my fellow graduates can now begin to invest in ensuring that the next ten years are better than the last.

   — proud MHGS grad    Jan 19, 04:11 PM    #

8. In a statement, the Mars Hill Graduate School said it “has never admitted nor would it ever admit that Ms. Webb’s claims had any basis in fact,” but added that it settled the matter “so that we can devote our full energy to furthering Mars Hill Graduate School’s mission.” Mars Hill is an independent organization that is not affiliated with any denomination or church.

   The above is a direct quote from the Seattle PI January 15th.They say they have never nor would they ever admitt that Ms. Webb’s claim had any basis in fact. Let me see, you see humility and accountability where? Honesty and humility? I beg your pardon? This is the usual arrogant, demeaning and “holier than thou” attitude that consistently comes from Mars Hill Graduate School. As the former poster said, dig deeper media…there truly are scandals galore.

   — former graduate    Jan 19, 08:36 PM    #

9. Usually when someone says something is not “fact”, the alternative is that it is “fiction”. So if they are saying that Ms. Webb’s claims have no basis in fact, then the alternative would be her claims are….fiction? If that is not what they want to imply, then perhaps they could “re word” their statement. Accountability, humility and honesty does not jump out at me when I read that statement. No, not at all. Quite the opposite. One would think that perhaps Ms. Webb’s Claims did indeed have basis in fact, otherwise, I think they would not
   have handed over $300,000 so they are not “distracted”. Wow. such humility.

   — former graduate    Jan 19, 09:06 PM    #

10. this grad of mars hill graduate school would like to: 1) sincerely thank The Chronicle of Higher Education for: a) blogging re this matter AND b) allowing us a forum to dialogue about it; and 2) fervently urge that the initial post and subsequent comments NOT be removed (keeping site guidelines in mind, of course), if, say, a certain administration and/or reps thereof were to demand same (perhaps allege that any/all of our comments be “deemed inappropriate”). thanks again, TCHE, and keep up the good work!

    — another mhgs grad    Jan 20, 12:10 AM    #

11. check out this mhgs statement sent to us grads:

    Mars Hill Graduate School settlement with Dr. Heather Parkinson-Webb

    Dear friends,

    Many of you may have read in one or more papers or online news sources about the settlement of a lawsuit between Mars Hill Graduate School and Dr. Heather Parkinson-Webb, a former faculty member at MHGS. I apologize, on behalf of the leadership and board of MHGS, if you heard this news elsewhere before hearing it directly from MHGS. This is not what we had intended. As members of the MHGS community, hearing news such as this is, at the very least, cause for concern. Up until this past Tuesday there was a “gag” order placed on MHGS and Dr. Webb to not disclose anything about the proceedings until after the case had reached its conclusion – which it did suddenly this week on Wednesday January 16.

    As this has occurred, Dan Allender is currently in Ethiopia in a region where email is extremely limited. You will hear directly from Dan regarding this matter when he returns to Seattle next week.

    I understand that many of you know Heather personally and as a former MHGS faculty member. Given such, it is important you see first hand the official position of the school in these matters:

    “Mars Hill Graduate School (MHGS) makes employment decisions based on legitimate reasons without regard to an individual’s gender, race, disability, or any other category protected by law. Former professor Heather Webb sued MHGS for employment-related claims, including discrimination and wrongful discharge. MHGS strenuously maintains that Ms. Webb’s claims were utterly without merit. MHGS has never admitted nor would it ever admit that Ms. Webb’s claims had any basis in fact. To the contrary, MHGS maintains that Ms. Webb was treated fairly by the school throughout her tenure here. Because of the inherent uncertainty and distraction litigation can cause, MHGS decided to resolve the matter amicably with Ms. Webb without going to trial. We cannot elaborate further on the details of that resolution, but we are pleased that the matter is behind us so that we can devote our full energy to furthering Mars Hill Graduate School’s mission.”

    From financial perspective, our insurance company will be covering the cost of the settlement. Ultimately it was the decision of the insurance company to settle this case outside of trial.

    Given the public nature of this news, it has already been received and responded to differently by different people in the MHGS alumni community. For some of us this is an example of the tragedy of living in broken community. For others it causes us to question the integrity of MHGS and/or those involved. And because very few of us know all the information surrounding this case, it is easier to make assumptions and reach judgments rather than to be prayerful and graceful toward those involved. Regardless of where in that spectrum you find yourself, if you have any questions about which I can be helpful, please let me know. I am grateful for time spent with any of you…and particularly regarding questions you have about this situation: simply reply to this email and let me know.

    Finally, we genuinely request prayer for all those involved…Heather, her family, and those within our midst who have borne the emotion and physical cost of this case and their families: for healing and peace and that all of us may be ever more about the Kingdom that is at hand.

    Sincerely,

    J.Paul Fridenmaker, on behalf of the leadership team and board of Mars Hill Graduate School

    ******************************

    J.Paul Fridenmaker

    Financial Development & Alumni Relations

    Mars Hill Graduate School

    — 'nother grad    Jan 21, 12:21 AM    #

12. That is typical statement fromMHGS. Former scandals saw very similar letters. Paraphrasing of course, but the message is “don’t judge us because you don’t know every detail…. for the larger purpose of God (always), we take the high road and we will move on because our work is so, so important, we will not be sidelined by this…..” something like that..very similar. So, I am sure MHGS is fine if you want to judge the other party, but not them. Of course, no one ever knows all the details surrounding any story, but this is a brilliant way for them to look like they are “bound to silence” , and if you ever knew the whole truth, of course, you would understand why they did this, but of course, you can never know the whole truth….

    Insurance companies don’t thow away their money. MHGS school is trapped here. They are admitting that the insurance co made this decision – no way would the Insurance have paid this large sum of $300,000 if they thought they had a chance of winning – no way. Insurance companies don’t do that. They paid because they knew they would lose in court. MHGS school points to them, it doesn’t help their story, it actually , hurts, but in this case, they have nothing else they can say to spin it….that’s their best arguement wich isn’t a good one. Cleary Ms. Webb would have won in court. The insurance co would have fought if there were any other chance….MHGS is spinning this the best they can, but, well, it’s not so easy this time….they too have to abide by the laws of our society, finally someone exposed them. Good job.

    — former grad    Jan 21, 10:36 AM    #

13. While I wouldn’t trade the training I received at Mars Hill for all the chocolate in the world, it looks as though it is time for the institution to call itself to glory. Heather Parkinson Webb is a gem of a human being, and I admire her persistence in calling to glory the very institution which teaches us to do so. Now what about Kirk? Was he ever called to glory?

    — Mars Hill Grad, class of '00    Jan 21, 04:36 PM    #

14. The litany of these comments is very sad, and as is typical of so many MHGS grads, highly inflamatory, lacking grace, and hyperbolic. And as is also typical of many MHGS grads, at least earlier ones, lacking any basis of fact. The truth of the matter is, it is the insurance company’s decision to settle, not the insured’s. Heather is a very angry and bitter woman because her marriage ended in a painful divorce. She insisted that MHGS rescue it and punish her husband, which of course is not their job to do. She trumped up false charges of domestic violence against him that were thrown out. And she has launched a nation wide smear campaign against the school to extract her pound of flesh in revenge because she couldn’t punish Kirk. She used to call MHGS “her first born child” – many of her students remember that. Is this what you do to your first born? She says she has done this in the name of women at mhgs – but is she gving them any of the money? Doubt it. I agree with one of the above comments – that this smells. But I applaud the leaders of MHGS for not diving into the fray and sligning mud back at Heather. Heather should be prayed for and hoped for. As should this fine insitution. This is tragic all the way around and if all people can do is want to ‘dig up’ scandals, I would suggest they look into their own lives to do so – it sounds like many of you have quite a few unresolved needs that could use some digging up.

    — Sad and Concerned    Jan 21, 08:33 PM    #

15. Ahhh #14. You are a well trained Mars Hill child. Eveyrone in the world is wrong…...except Mars Hill, except your fearless leader. Should the insurance co’s now look into their own “lives” and dig up scandels, they were wrong too? No, they just know the law and they did not want to pay for the expensive trial AND the $300,000, so they skipped losing the trial. Insurance CO ‘s don’t give up money without a fight, unless, it’s a clear defeat from the beginning. Your above unfounded comments about Ms. Webb show your mudd slinging abilities, and your naivite. Be kind to your leaders and hope their being held accountable by LAW could turn them around… What Ms. Webb has done is to be applauded – her fortitude and perserverence are exemplary.

    — Graduate and beyond.    Jan 22, 11:56 AM    #

16. Wow, “Sad and Concerned”, what a post! You apparently are very close to the school (close enough to claim to know just what happened and what Ms. Webb is thinking and planning), yet you disparage the “typical” MHGS grad as inflammatory and “lacking grace”. Love the school but hate the students? Then you defame Ms. Webb and conclude with remarks that essentially say “Deal with your own messed up lives and stop worrying whether or not MHGS is riddled with scandals”. If MHGS has a fraction of the problems people are saying, the school needs to be shut down; it is a detriment to the Kingdom of God. Facts? You claim Ms. Webb drummed up “false charges of domestic violence”. Court documents show a restraining order was issued against Kirk. That belies that accusation. [And how in the world can someone from a school that teaches how to help others living in fear of domestic violence react to such a victim by publicly accusing them of making it up? Is that what they (you?) teach?] You say that Ms. Webb brought her husband’s infidelity to the school’s attention [how do you know unless you were there?] but, in your opinion, that “is not their job”. What? Stopping a professor at a Christian seminary from having affairs with his students is not something the school should worry about?!? If Ms. Webb were so bitter and intent on a “nation wide smear campaign”, why has she said nothing up to this point? Where are her online diatribes and mean-spirited blog posts? Yeah, I haven’t seen any either. You don’t have a judge enter a judgment against you for $300,000 because something is a little distracting for you and your insurance company; that happens when you’re guilty. You claim the other posts on this site lack fact, then you let fly complete fiction and tortured reasoning in order to protect the school at any cost. What flavor is your Kool Aid?

    — Dismayed    Jan 22, 04:24 PM    #

17. “If MHGS has a fraction of the problems people are saying, the school needs to be shut down; it is a detriment to the Kingdom of God.”

    AMEN to that, “Dismayed”\#16! At last the truth is out there.. may it serve as affirmation for earlier students and grads.. and as warning to potential “recruits.”

    — former student\graduate    Jan 24, 01:36 AM    #

18. notice most former grads don’t put their names :-)

    as yet another former grad I’m afraid to critique them honestly. I learned alot from them as well, but I’m afraid of saying any critiques…I’m afraid of…what I witnessed (and experienced in small amounts) done to people who critique them…anybody who has been through it knows what I’m talking about

    — different former grad    Jan 25, 02:59 PM    #

19. I felt relieved when I read of the settlement Mars Hill has to pay to Ms. Parkinson-Webb. No, I don’t know the particulars of this situation. I graduated in ’03 after three very painful years at MHGS. I do know that the admin is capable of doing what Ms. Parkinson-Webb claims. When I was a student there I saw so much hypocrisy that it settled in my mind once and for all that I was not a Christian. When I challenged their philosophy of ‘presence’ as being flawed since if a person’s presence is the most valuable thing one can give to another, then it can also be used as a weapon to ostracize others—which I saw a lot of at my time there.

    I also saw that no matter how much the lecturers talked about equality, there was an undercurrent of, “It’s OK as long as my husband/the minister/some other male says.” That did not make sense for me and I was retaliated against for saying so. I’ve felt that I’ve been under a ‘gag order’ of sorts since leaving. This lawsuit has given me at least a limited way to express some of the damage that was done.

    I could go on about the enforced ‘lifestory’ telling in the practicums that for those of us who had terrible childhoods, turned into a retraumatization via scrutiny, lack of professionalism and downplaying of the events shared. Or the many other intrusive ‘assignments’ that had nothing to do with getting a counseling or Mdiv degree.

    As poster #18 said, there are fearful repercussions for those who dare to criticize this group. But it has been a concern of mine that they are continuing to manipulate others.

    — kludd--former grad    Jan 26, 08:35 PM    #

20. wow…kudos to #19 for your bravery in posting…you really tell it like it is (i was there when you were). i totally agree with your assessment of their idea of ‘practicum’ (btw, folks, check out what any reputable counseling school means by ‘practicum:’ it’s not practicing counseling on your classmates!). yeah, i could go on and on, too. but of course, that’s because i can’t handle the ‘disruption’ and ‘chaos’ of a mhgs ‘transformation’ ;) (and here i thought the Holy Spirit transformed us believers…but i digress). or perhaps i’m too ‘demanding’ and can’t handle my ‘disappointment’ ;). well, whatever it is, i’m sure my comments (and any others seen as negative) will now be used as evidence of ‘evil’ trying to destroy the ‘divine’ mission of mhgs.

    — mars hill grad    Jan 27, 01:04 AM    #

21. I have really enjoyed reading this blog and reflecting on the postings. I thought folks would be interested to read the official response of the school’s Chief Operating Officer to Heather’s press release…

    Greetings MHGS Community from the plains of
    > Ethiopia,
    >
    > It is more than a little ironic that I am writing
    > this communication to you from halfway around the
    > world. But I realize it could not wait until I
    > return. It is likely that, by now, many of you have
    > read in one or more papers or online news sources
    > about the settlement of our lawsuit with former
    > colleague Heather Webb. First, let me apologize
    > personally to you for having to hear of it that way
    > before you heard it from me. It would have been my
    > intention that you hear about this internally first
    > so you could prepare for any likely inquiries or
    > comments from your friends, families and neighbors.
    > The speed at which Heather and her attorney released
    > their press release (in fact, it was technically
    > before the agreement was even fully settled) left us
    > little time to prepare. Nonetheless, that is no
    > excuse, so I apologize for any awkwardness or
    > confusion this may have caused anyone of you.
    >
    > My purpose in this communication is to provide you
    > with some perspective on this entire situation.
    > First, because MHGS is your employer and a community
    > of which I hope you can be proud and feel good about
    > serving within. Second, because these kinds of
    > situations can often be perplexing, and challenging
    > of our faith and beliefs. And finally, because as
    > co-stewards of our organization’s mission, you have
    > a right to know. So, in the interest of treading
    > the fine lines of being informative and using
    > discretion, I’m going to try and err on the side of
    > “respectful transparency.”
    >
    > Let me begin with the end – that there is no win in
    > this for anyone. It is tragic that once-strong
    > relationships, especially among Christian people,
    > can end in such misfortune and devastation. It
    > would have never been our desire for things to have
    > gone this way.
    >
    > Litigation is an odd and painful process in any
    > context. Some believe it should never happen among
    > Christians. Others believe it exploits the judicial
    > system. It can feel shaming to have others publicly
    > and falsely accuse you. I absolutely don’t want any
    > of you to feel embarrassment, shame, or caught off
    > guard should you be confronted with any questions or
    > inquiries about the situation. Law suits, by their
    > nature, distort facts and truths and bend reality in
    > polarized directions to fit the needs of plaintiffs
    > and defendants because the outcome has to have a
    > winner and a loser. From our perspective, in this
    > process, everyone lost.
    >
    > I can personally tell you that over the past two
    > years, as this issue has been escalating, it has
    > more than tested the limits of my faith in many
    > directions. I have searched for spiritual
    > explanations, I have tried to make it all seem
    > rational, and I have tried to keep it far from my
    > mind on those days when, thankfully, there were no
    > meetings with lawyers or documents to read or
    > statements to make. Candidly, I have found no way
    > to explain or rationalize this. I have simply cried
    > out for God to show mercy and grace to all of us – > Heather included.
    >
    > So, just a bit of context about the story. Early in
    > 2005, Heather asked Roy (then in the role of
    > Academic Dean) and I to intervene in personal family
    > matters that we felt were far outside the boundaries
    > of ours to interfere with. Because her husband Kirk
    > at the time was also an employee of MHGS, it made
    > things a bit complicated. Nonetheless, we asked
    > them to keep their personal family challenges
    > outside the workplace for the well being of the
    > community and for the sake of our students.
    > Unfortunately, Heather became increasingly angry
    > that we were not choosing to intervene, and any
    > attempts we made to be appropriately supportive
    > proved unhelpful. As some of you who were here at
    > the time may recall, the dissolution of Heather and
    > Kirk’s marriage was a deeply distressing event for
    > the entire community that caused enormous turmoil
    > among our students, and only further fueled
    > Heather’s rage at us. It is important you
    > understand that we tried repeatedly to find ways,
    > within the bounds of what we could do ethically and
    > legally, to support Heather. We treated her
    > respectfully and fairly, and I personally regret
    > that she did not experience it that way.
    >
    > Over the past two years, our attempts to try and
    > reconcile with Heather have been unsuccessful as she
    > has aggressively pursued litigation to avenge her
    > anger. While the amount you read about in the
    > settlement of $300,000 seems like an astonishing
    > amount of money, her original demand was for
    > $715,000. You should also know that our insurance
    > company will be covering the costs of this
    > settlement, and ultimately it was their decision to
    > settle, and it was their decision on the amount of
    > the settlement. Importantly, it was far less than
    > it would have cost to litigate the matter, which
    > could have continued on for at least another year or
    > longer. Financial settlement terms are not an
    > aspect of the litigation that the insured party gets
    > any say in. But we are very, very grateful to have
    > the coverage our insurance company provided. (It is
    > very hard to sit here in one of the most
    > impoverished nations in the world and not imagine
    > what the money could do for the people here.) As
    > one of the articles you may have read suggested, her
    > non-monetary demands included us writing a letter of
    > reference for her which we agreed to do truthfully,
    > and that we continue the training we are already
    > doing annually on diversity and harassment. We have
    > agreed to both. In no way does this settlement
    > imply any admission of wrong doing on our part. If
    > you are asked, you can truthfully and confidently
    > say that we feel no liability for any of her claims.
    > They are categorically unmerited. We in no way
    > discriminated against her or retaliated against her.
    > But given how much time and resources these last
    > two years have already consumed, we were simply
    > relieved that our insurance company made the
    > decision to end it and not have it continue for
    > another year. The process has been costly and
    > painful and since no redemptive or reconciling
    > outcome was likely, we just wanted it over.
    >
    > Heather Webb played an instrumental role in the
    > founding of Mars Hill Graduate School and in its
    > early years of growth. She is a gifted woman with
    > many talents, and she was a friend. It has been
    > personally painful to me, to Dan, and to others in
    > our community who worked so closely with her to see
    > how anger and vengeance have consumed these recent
    > years of her life. I would ask that you keep
    > Heather in your prayers now – that she can move
    > forward with her life and to using her talents to
    > further the work of God’s kingdom – which was always
    > her life’s passion. Pray she can now return to it
    > and that whatever this settlement symbolizes for
    > her, it enables her to move on.
    >
    > I would also ask that if you are engaged by anyone
    > outside the community, that you make no disparaging
    > remarks of any kind about Heather. While this feels
    > understandably outrageous and unjust, let’s keep our
    > eyes forward on the mission of MHGS, and the
    > students we are privileged to serve.
    >
    > While ironic to be here writing this in Africa, I am
    > grateful to be in the midst of some amazing people
    > of God. They are from cultures vastly different
    > than ours, with life experiences I will never know
    > and hardships I have never conceived. They are men
    > and women of deep and passionate faith who risk
    > their lives daily for the redemption of the
    > marginalized, broken, and forgotten. I have been in
    > awe in their midst since I arrived. Their very
    > being powerfully reminds me of what is truly
    > valuable in life, and what things are too easily
    > taken for granted. Their hope, their perseverance,
    > and their faithfulness show me what is important – > really important – in the grander scheme of things.
    > While this misfortune is a bit painful, perhaps
    > inconvenient and embarrassing, and has consumed
    > hundreds of hours these past two years, it pales in
    > comparison to the greater work of the kingdom to be
    > done, and certainly in comparison to the suffering
    > we will simply never face in our lives. For all of
    > that, I am very grateful to be among these new
    > Ethiopian friends while I am writing this to you, a
    > tad distasteful to write though it may be. When I
    > return next week to the U.S., if any of you have any
    > further questions, I would be more than glad to
    > respond to them in person if you would find that
    > helpful. Amy Wilson or Phil Bishop can also address
    > any questions you might have as well.
    >
    > With this now behind us, let us turn our focus to
    > the future. We have had many great blessings this
    > year, and surely have more ahead. We are amidst
    > some important accreditation processes. We are doing
    > exciting research. And we have each other – a
    > stunning community of gifted men and women for whom
    > I remain very grateful – to work with. And we share
    > an organization I hope we can continue to hold our
    > heads up high about and of which we can remain very
    > proud.
    >
    > With his hope and kindness,
    >
    > Ron

    — a graduate and a former staff person    Jan 27, 01:19 PM    #

22. So Ron says that Heather pursued litigation to “avenge her anger.” Uh, Ron, isn’t THAT a disparaging comment about Heather?

    Nice spin. Make it a “personal” issue.

    2+2=4

    Kirk has an affair with a student. School desperately hides it in order cover its ass like it did with another former faculty. Heather won’t tolerate a cover-up. Heather is scapegoated as the “avenging wife.”

    Such garbage.

    And so here it is AGAIN. Married male professor violates professional boundaries with female students in a counseling program and gets away scot-free.

    — another mars hill grad    Jan 28, 03:15 AM    #

23. Thank you #22 for your posting. I would like to add that the school has never admitted there was “sexual misconduct.” Isn’t that what it is called when a professor has an “affair” with a student?

    I want the school to address this matter. This is not a personal issue about Heather.

    Did two male professors engage in sexual misconduct with their female students? If so, were they terminated because of it?

    — mars hill alum    Jan 28, 11:45 AM    #

24. Clearly there was no “sexual misconduct”. There may have been other misconduct, but one can logically assume if there was “proveable” sexual misconduct, this suit would not have settled for less than the original asking price. It seems to me like everyone in this situation needs our prayers, not our ridicule.

    — Concerned    Jan 28, 01:52 PM    #

25. And how do you know that so “clearly,” #24? Was “sexual misconduct” even an issue in Ms. Parkinson-Webb’s suit? Weren’t the issues instead discrimination and harrassment?

    You seem to have missed the point. Irrespective of Ms. Parkinson-Webb’s lawsuit, there now appears to be a pattern (dare I say a “theme”) established at this Christian institution, offering Counseling and Divinity degrees: married male professors (both founders, no less) crossing professional boundaries by having affairs with female students.

    And how is the desire to see this institution held to account “ridicule?”

    — mhgs alum    Jan 28, 02:20 PM    #

26. I am somewhat taken aback by your emotion attached to this situation. It makes me wonder if you are very closely aligned with this current situation. None-the-less I find it ironic that you point out (and correctly) that the suit was about discrimination and harrasment and then spend the next paragraph ranting on the alleged affairs). Which one causes this emotion in you? As for accountablility, MHGS has been held accountable by the law with the recent payout. My encouragement for prayer was simply that, encouragement. If I directly offended you, then please accept my apologies.

    — Concerned    Jan 28, 02:52 PM    #

27. I have been following the situation closely. I am also a graduate of MHGS. You can contact the Snohomish County Superior Court by phone or in writing and request a copy of the summons and complaint and the amended complaint. The complaint No. is: 05-2-09625-8 and is listed as Heather P. Webb, Plaintiff, vs. Mars Hill Graduate School, Defendant. Their phone number is: 425-388-3411. Their address is: 3000 Rockefeller, M/S 502; Everett, WA 98201. I think many people here would find it helpful to have read through what was filed in court, which is of public record.

    — Mike Jones    Jan 28, 03:04 PM    #

28. it is disconcerting their assessment that she is only doing this out of vengeance. It is, unfortunately, my experience with their “spin” as well.

    That’s what I meant earlier about how they treat people and you may only notice if you’re on the other side

    take note how much “care” they write about her, while subtly demeaning her character and her heart – it is abuse all over again.

    She was not “angry” for nothing – they didn’t do NOTHING to her…

    Then to claim they were her good friends…

    The worst abuse always comes from those who claim to be so close but ultimately are the ones who betray and cause more damage…I learned that from them while I was there…both in what they “taught” me about counseling, but also in their treatment of others…

    — grad    Jan 28, 04:51 PM    #

29. An affair is sexual misconduct. I never went to your school, but I am a grad student in a secular university where an affair between a professor and student is categorized as “sexual misconduct” and if proved results in immediate termination.

    — a non-grad    Jan 29, 11:31 AM    #

30. I found this posted by ‘anonymous’ on Dwight’s blog: http://dwightfriesen.blog.com/321788/

    “2008 and Ms. Webb has just won a $300,000.00 from MHGS, Dr. Hudson was married 3 times in 18 months during the heady 2002/2003 season also sued by his student, Jody E. who won her case and his therapy licence revoked by the State of Washington for the reason that most women sue their therapists, which has started an ongoing investigation of MHGS illegal and unethical practices of students paying for therapy from their professors. Things are looking up. Happy 2008”

    Here’s the link with the State of Washington: https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/hpqa1/Application/Credential_Search/Legal_Document_Index.asp?PCN=LH00004898&VID= 445ca4b52db9c04abf95bc7c01a4e4fc&SID=4b32c907270b8c3308bf02b20bcc&PID=48&Page=1&Docket= 0703B1067LH&TocID=81013×82998#list

    I had no idea. The school said NOTHING.

    According to the HeraldNET:

    “She [Heather] alleged in court documents that Kirk Webb engaged in a relationship with a student, whom he later married. Parkinson-Webb’s lawsuit alleged that the school’s leadership knew about her former husband’s relationship and didn’t take steps to end it.”

    http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080117/NEWS01/246074206

    Who to believe? Did the school leadership know? I think so.

    — grad    Jan 29, 07:09 PM    #

31. I can vouch for Don Hudson’s 3 marriages – we were at mars hill at the time and personally looked at the divorce records (like Heather’s lawsuit, a matter of public record – only this time in King County). In fact, Don’s 1st wife was a much-beloved Practicum Facilitator AND Leader, and students were told very little when she suddenly “disappeared” from our community. Eventually, we were told they were separating “for a season” but were not to ask questions. Of course, many of us did, despite being labeled, at best, “gossips.” (I leave it to your imagination what we were called/accused of, at worst.) It is heartbreaking to see such a similar scenario play out all over again… Heather deserves much gratitude and respect for having done her best to ensure it never will again.

    — a still concerned grad    Jan 29, 08:18 PM    #

32. They did NOT say this, did they?

    “(It is very hard to sit here in one of the most impoverished nations in the world and not imagine what the money could do for the people here.)”

    — someone familiar with the school    Jan 29, 09:16 PM    #

33. if you can’t directly access the State of WA link in #30, then try this:

    go to:
    https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/hpqa1/Application/Credential_Search/Profile.asp

    and enter:
    Hudson for Last Name and
    Don for First Name

    or key in
    LH00004898 for Credential Number

    — another alum    Jan 29, 09:55 PM    #

34. who is that man behind the curtain?

    There is one…will the wizard learn who he is or will the past continue to be repeated?

    Will those that followed the wizard realize they didn’t need the wizard in the first place the way they thought they did?

    Wizard:Do not arouse the wrath of the Great and Powerful Oz! I said come
    back tomorrow!
    Dorothy:If you were really great and powerful, you’d keep your promises!
    Wizard:Do you presume to criticize the Great Oz? You ungrateful creatures! Think yourselves lucky that I’m giving you an audience tomorrow, instead of twenty years from now! Oh! The
    Great Oz has spoken!
    Oh! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. The Great, Powerful has spoken
    Dorothy:Who are you?
    Wizard: Well, I – I – I am the Great and Powerful – Wizard of Oz.
    Dorothy:You are?
    Wizard: Uh
    Dorothy: I don’t believe you!
    Wizard: No, I’m afraid it’s true. There’s no other Wizard except me.
    Scarecrow: You Humbug!
    Lion: Yeah!
    Wizard: Yes – that’s exactly so – I’m a humbug.
    Dorothy: Oh – you’re a very bad man!
    Wizard: Oh, no, my dear. I – I’m a very good man. I’m just a very bad Wizard.
    Scarecrow: What about the heart that you promised the Tin Man?
    Wizard: Well, I…
    Scarecrow: And the courage you promised Cowardly Lion?
    Wizard: Well, I..
    Tin Man and Lion: And Scarecrow’s brain?

    — grad    Jan 29, 10:23 PM    #

35. In response to comment #29, I had thought something similar about the school where I did my undergraduate work, Michigan State University. Upon contacting the office of legal counsel there today, I found out that there is no state law governing an affair of a faculty member and a student. The only policy that MSU would enforce in such a situation is that they would make sure that the student was not under any direct responsibility of the faculty member who had the affair with that student. I then contacted Western Seminary, in Portland OR, because MHGS started out being under Western Seminary. The Academic Dean at Western said that they have a faculty handbook which gives them general guidelines in such matters. Their faculty handbook is of public record. However, they said that it is not a requirement of a school to allow a faculty handbook to be a matter of public record, if in fact a school had such a document. I have also spoken with the Attorney General’s office for the State of Washington, where MHGS is located. They informed me that there is no public policy in place governing any affair that a faculty member might have with a student of the same school.

    — Mike Jones    Jan 29, 10:25 PM    #

36. Yes, the MHGS “cover ups” help no one. Not the faculty members involved, not the students, not the wives of the faculty members. For them to write about Law Suits “Distorting facts/truths and realities” is classic. If the outcome had been in their favor, I don’t think MHGS would be making statements about the Law “distorting truth”....We were also on the speaker team for “Family Life” (yes, traveling all over the world speaking at marriage conferences while these things were happening). I was contacted by no one from their organization either, and to this very day, I have not heard from them. At the time, Dan and Becky Allender were also on the Family Life Speaker team, I can only imagine what Family Life was instructed to do(or not to do), but surprised that they would do it

    ...and thank you #31.

    — Suzanne Hudson, former graduate, former intern, former adjunct faculty.    Jan 30, 10:43 AM    #

37. Wow. Suzanne, I am speechless at your courage. Thank you for speaking.

    Someone should talk to Nancy Murphy. If anyone, she should be able to empathize with what’s going on with Heather and what happened to Suzanne.

    I just looked on the website. She’s not there anymore, nor does it look like the Domestic Violence track is there anymore.

    Does anyone know what happened to her and the program? Was she there when all this was going on?

    — former grad    Jan 30, 01:45 PM    #

38. Will all of this chaos affect accreditation?

    I am highly disappointed that Dan and Becky never contacted you, Suzanne. That is heartshattering, but not surprising.

    What can we all do to stop the chaos? Any suggestions?

    — Disturbed by the Chaos    Jan 30, 11:59 PM    #

39. My time with the school was during it’s infancy. It was indeed a life changing experience and continues to have a profound impact on my life. So, I am very thankful to the original seven faculity members and fellow students. My hope was that others would experience similar awakenings in their own lives in the following years. I think many have. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned the cover ups and scandals in the early days. Yes, there was a lot of damage done to many, many people. I am amazed at the anger evident in several posts in this thread. I think your (our) anger is justified. I suppose one of the saddest things about this is it didn’t have to be this way. It didn’t have to turn out the way it did. Few practiced what they preached, if you know what I mean.
    Heather, if you are reading this, I see through the smoke the school is blowing up our skirts. I am sorry it came to all of this. Blessings on your work with the clergy. Many here love you and hope for your best.

    — Western Seminary Seattle grad    Jan 31, 03:14 AM    #

40. I am not surprised that Dan and Becky did not contact me, they took clear sides, very clear. I am however, surprised at Family Life, but, of course, they were (are?)in close contact with Dan, yet still it surprises me that they would treat one of their “team” members like this. That particular “scandal” however, would have also involved the reputation of Family Life. Actually all of these scandals would affect them – The President of MHGS is/was one of their speakers

    What can be done? I think what Heather has done is a strong and affirmative statement in the right direction. I am thrilled with her success. She has been through an incredible ordeal, but her strength and clear mind have served her well. Congratulations is all I have to say. MHGS cannot seem to admit any wrong doing. That just under lines the problem in my opinion. I call those “True Colors”. I think people will just have to decide for themselves. There is now, plenty of information (documented!) for consideration.

    — Suzanne Hudson, former graduate, former intern, former adjunct faculty.    Jan 31, 06:24 AM    #

41. My wife and I were in relatively close contact with the leadership in those first years as well. Two times I heard statements to the fact that “litigation” was their favorite term or phrase (or a statement very similar). I remember taking note to walk lightly if I disagreed with them.

    My time with them greatly challenged our marriage as well, and I’m grateful God saw us through. When I did make some comments asking them to explain some of their treatment of me and my wife they wrote similar emails about me and to me.

    I’d be more specific – but I won’t pretend I am not afraid of what they would or could do.

    Litigation was their favorite word and I believe they would use it to silence or control anybody they can if any of their other methods of public shame and abuse don’t work. Heather may or may not have been cut from the same cloth – she may have learned from them. She only beat them at their game (and you can see by their email they are furious about it) – and I’m glad she did for the sake of public revelation of what the school’s leadership in that community is doing and producing. Though I think Heather’s success may end up just lengthening her process of getting through the grief of the abuse they put her through. She taught me some great things herself, and my heart goes out to her as she has had to endure this (Suzanne as well).

    If you were to read Wounded Heart by Dan you would find in their a definition of abuse that teaches their is a level of trust gained by the abuser of the abused. A sense of being loved and appreciated – before the abuse starts (I would look it up but I threw away all of Dan’s books after I left the school b/c I couldn’t stand to hear his words against what he endorsed by his silence or behavior). I’m sure Heather feels like that – they “loved” her until she questioned their treatment of her or others. Many of you experienced, and voice, similar things – once you start questioning things like “what’s happening relationally here” (see comments on 31 above) you get crushed in spirit and shamed horribly.

    Is it the case of the abused becoming the abuser? I prayed after I left for forgiveness for what I may have done to other students in practicum and that God would not let me be like them and he would teach me to be different.

    If you are currently there, or have learned alot from them, I’d advise that you seek God out for the same.

    I’d also advise that you be aware that they will hurt you to keep you silent and make sure you “tow the party line.”

    You’ve already been given the directives: “...because as co-stewards of our organization’s mission…If you are asked, you can truthfully and confidently say that we feel no liability for any of her claims. They are categorically unmerited. We in no way discriminated against her or retaliated against her.”

    Say anything else, or just start questioning the possibility that all these people have a possible point…watch out! Just don’t do it alone or blindly, or you will experience what Heather and Suzanne have – and others as well.

    — former grad and formerly associated    Jan 31, 09:29 AM    #

42. to #32… Ron most definitely did state the following to faculty and staff in reference to his being in Africa … “It is very hard to sit here in one of the most impoverished nations in the world and not imagine what the money could do for the people here.”... personally I am disgusted by the statement.

    — a grad and a former staff member    Jan 31, 11:19 AM    #

43. #42 – I don’t know where Ron lives…but it seems their president, Dan, lives on Bainbridge Island! (http://www.mhgs.edu/common/faculty.asp?m=ps) If they are really concerned about the poor, he could downsize considerably and maybe provide $300,000 himself and still be quite comfortable!

    That statement does disgust me as well…as an implication on Heather

    — someone familiar with the school    Jan 31, 11:28 AM    #

44. Dr. Friesen – if you are reading this . . . .

    I appreciated your involvement in the whole Mars Hill protest thing. It shows integrity in what you believe. You’re not just a professor, but pastor. You confront, you do not avoid.

    You are probably already aware controversy surrounding Heather’s lawsuit and what happened to Don. Fear is keeping everyone silent. Some have broken their silence including a former professor’s wife (Susanne Hudson). You can find her comments at:

    http://chronicle.com/news/article/3763/mars-hill-graduate-school-settles-former-faculty-members-bias-lawsuit

    Would you consider mediating a public forum or doing an intervention with Dan Allender like you did with Mark Driscoll?

    (posted on Dwight’s website)

    — - concerned former grad    Jan 31, 12:00 PM    #

45. The “Mars Hill protest thing” in #44 refers to Mars Hill Church in Seattle. A group of courageous pastors intervened in on a situation by talking directly with Mark Driscoll. Dr. Friesen was one of those pastors. It staved off a public protest of the church.

    — grad    Jan 31, 12:19 PM    #

46. Wow…I’ve just read all post in one gulp. I’m tearful as I hear both the complication and harm that has occurred. Most of those that are posting here are harming in a way that is out to shed blood. Are you aware of your rage and how harmful it is? I urge you to consider the power of your words… not to mars hill but to the clients that are in safe and healing therapy with graduates, the hundreds of graduates that have been given life changing freedom and love from what they have learned, their children, the churches that are blessed by the goodness graduates has brought into lives. Why is there such a fight to continue the harm?

    I graduated after 2001 (its seems like most posts are from those that were there before 2001) and I’ve seen a lot of change occur at mars hill. I have not seen a institution that is more open to changing and growing. Mistakes and harm have been grieved in ways that I’ve never seen Christians or churches grieve and repent.. I’ve seen it.. I’ve been there. I will be the last to say mars hill is perfect but these stories, including Heathers, are not different from other academic institutions. Just as sad and harmful but also please do not assume you know all the facts. In an attempt to be helpful (not angry) consider the therapeutic definition of “splitting”. In fact, instead of anonymously posting, invite .. Ron Carucci or JPaul or Dan Allender to a conversation. I would bet they are more than willing to talk with you.

    Dan.. thank you. Your teaching in my life has given me freedom to love myself, others and God more beautifully than I thought was possible. I hope the words in this blog do not stop the good work that you are doing.

    Heather.. mars hill students truly miss you. I hope nothing but goodness for you.

    — --grad after 2001    Jan 31, 01:35 PM    #

47. #46, do you care to identify yourself?

    — grad    Jan 31, 02:26 PM    #

48. #47 do you care to identify yourself?

    — Concerned    Jan 31, 03:52 PM    #

49. #46 and #48,

    I think the reason why people post anonymously is because they do not feel safe. If you read the posts you will get an understanding of the reason why.

    — grad    Jan 31, 04:38 PM    #

50. # 46

    Post #12 just about scripted what you said: “don’t judge us because you don’t know every detail…. for the larger purpose of God (always), we take the high road and we will move on because our work is so, so important, we will not be sidelined by this…..”

    And #31 seems to have experienced on campus similar to what you are doing with your response of calling this simply rage, and therefore labeling it a deep and sinful response: she said she was “...being labeled, at best, “gossips.” (I leave it to your imagination what we were called/accused of, at worst.)” Your saying we are “rageful” people – pretty damaging if there really was some abuse done to “us.”

    And Heather left a year ago? It’s not only the first few years, but it is occuring as recently as a year or less ago. And by that email being sent out about Heather, I’d say it’s happening now to Heather.

    Those voicing are also healing – you also shame everybody by saying we are all just fighting to continue harm. Is it a fight to keep an abuser away from the victims or more victims? Is it harmful? There is that side of these voices to consider.

    My point is, this is part of a pattern that is being identified by many who have experienced it. And it includes some shaming of those who are in the middle of grief, or on the other side, of grief from something that is close to (if not) abuse of therapeutic power and institutional power wielded over students, faculty members, and employees.

    There may be some repentance and change and good things happening – but some of this happened recently – and repetitively (and even now). So, that evidence seems to reveal there is some core issue that has not been repented or dealt with – while maybe others have been, something has not.

    The safe and healing environment may be true, and is for many. But there is a cost for that “safe” environment that I experienced – absolute allegiance to their agenda – a subtle idolatry to worship them and defend them.

    Once I dealt with the reality of what was happening to me, I had to then question all the goodness I was given while I was there. That is also a pattern/stage of abuse. “My husband beat me, but I thought he loved me. Now what do I do with how good he made me feel when he said he loved me?”

    “My dad abused me. What do I do with all those good feelings and my desire for him to be a father still?”

    “The MHGS professors taught me so much freedom and how to love well. Now what do I do with all they have taught me that seems to free people if they are now treating me so badly?”

    In all cases shame is the major weapon and what causes the most damage.

    What do we, who have experienced it, do with all the good things they have taught us? It takes another level of redemption that is not available in that environment, relational pattern, and community.

    That environment, relational pattern, and community pattern of treatment has evidentially not changed much, if at all.

    This is not just about rage, nor is it only about all the post-grads just having “issues” of their own. There is something wrong, and it has grown into a larger issue…and may continue to grow if not dealt with in a more open and honest way than saying “Heather and all these students are just vengeful and rageful.”

    Nor can it be dealt with if their response (as in the email) is “pray for her” and “let’s move on to God’s greater purpose” b/c “we didn’t do anything wrong.”

    — unfortunate grad    Jan 31, 06:00 PM    #

51. OK, I first thought this entire section was a joke. i was sent the link to this and it read like a Christian tabloid so I didn’t think it could be real. Tragically, it seems to be real. You all make me so glad I am not a Christian and you are all exactly the reason why. I have read your gospel and I don’t see one shred of evidence in ANY of this conversation. I have always seen Christians kill each other off in petty, self-serving, ego-filling fights and you are all exactly what I have seen. And here’s what’s more scary – you all got counselor training! OH PLEASE tell me NONE of you are treating people?? The idea of you people sitting in front of people with genuine need and pain and helping them terrifies me. You all need to get a life – READ what you are saying and how incredibly pathetic, lame, self-absorbed you sound. #46 – thank you for at least saying out loud what you are seeing and holding up a mirror. I hope people accept your invitation to look hard at what they are doing and who they are. Its really a shame. You all talk about “shame” so gratititously as if you had a clue what it meant. Most of you SHOULD br ashamed of yourselves for behaving this chidlishly. This is some of the most immature, infantile, and abusive behavior I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. Please – all of you – go AND GET A LIFE.

    — Tragic    Feb 1, 11:17 AM    #

52. what do you all think of #51? my bet’s on either an mhgs admin or a not-wanting-to-see alum who’s feeling “Tragic” :)

    — wss grad    Feb 1, 11:43 AM    #

53. #52 – that’s so cute. no, I don’t work at the place you are talking about, and your comment just proves my point. thanks for the help!

    — tragic    Feb 1, 11:58 AM    #

54. Well I have to admit I am embarassed. I am an alum of mhgs and reading this set of posts is so sad. You are on here trashing a school and people with sharply black and white views with no room for your own assumptions being wrong while accusing the school and its leaders of the same things? Have any of you bothered to go and talk directly to them? Ask them the hard questions you are insinuiating answers to out here anonlymously? #51 I am sorry this is what you are seeing and that it is reinforcing your view of Christianity. I went to the school and I sat with leaders and I asked them questions. Hard questions. No, I didn’t like all of the answers I got. But I believe they were telling the truth. Life is never as one-way as you all are making it out to be and you know that. You just sit out here and hide behind words like “safety” and “courage” and justice as though that’s what you were doing, and use them to justify your own self-righteousness. Thank you 46 for saying what you are seeing. Relationships are always two way and most of you leave no room for any views but your own while claiming that MHGS says “it never did anything wrong.” Have you ever heard them say that? Really? What they said was they didn’t break the law. That is different. What is so gratifying about being out here throwing darts like this? Have any of you ever really known life to be this absolute? I hope not. If you need catharsis from the horrible experience you had at mhgs, is this the best way to get it? Or do you just want to extract your pound of flesh because it feels good? And if you were that unhappy there, why did you stay? We all attended that school of our own voilition. We knew it was a young school when we went there, and all new organizations are a mess. That’s doesn’t excuse some of the mistakes they made, but its not like those mistakes are unique to mhgs. Is there no room to see any of the great good they are doing? Have any of you spoken to the students who are there today? Heard their views? Or does that scare you because it might require you to let go of your entrenched views and see another’s views and deal with the difference? Every time someone in this post has offered a different point of view, you pile on to refute and dismiss them. That’s what you claim mhgs did to you. Does it make it right for you to do to others? There is just no conversation in this – just a long diatribe of bitterness. Even just as recent as #53 – how cruel of you! Is this all we have to do with our lives is just sit out here and complian? i am glad for my time at mhgs. For all its imperfections and the flaws in its leaders, I see a school that is doing beautiful things and transformative things. And I pray God continues to grow it, strengthen it and use it. And I would urge you all to step out from behind the blog and go directly to the organization and ask the hard questions you seem to want answered but don’t have the guts to go and ask. And if your response is, “Well I already know what they’ll say so why bother,” well – what kind of excuse is that? How could you possibly know? Do you know of anything that has happened since you left? You look at what you know of this situation with Heather and use it as evidence to suggest it is the same as when you where there. Are you sure? I was surprised to learn what I did – there were things I didn’t know. I was actually wrong about things I thought. And some of the things I don’t like are still there. But that’s how life works. It’s sad that you all feel so wounded – wounded enough to use the public internet as a way to punish mhgs for things you think they should have done differently. What’s redemptive about that? Its just indulgent. I hope you all can figure out a way to make peace with whatever your issues are with mhgs, and stop making out to be the evil empire. Its not. Its a good place. And its a flawed place. And I hope you can learn to see both.

    — redeemed alum Jeff    Feb 1, 12:17 PM    #

55. #51 – my heart goes out to you. I am a Christian and live (as best as I can) by the Gospel that you say you have read. My encouragement to you is that you look for Christ in the gospels and don’t rely on people to show you who the Lord is. While those of us who deeply love the Lord should be (and hopefully are) determining to conform ourselves to Christ’s image, we also have a human nature, have flaws and have hurts brought into our lives by other hurting people so we are by no means perfect or perfectly behaved. So if your only view of Christ comes from us, you will be disappointed every time. Ask God Himself to reveal Himself to you. I am confident He will, and He maynot use people to do so since you have had such a bad experience with them.

    — Concerned    Feb 1, 12:20 PM    #

56. Many thanks to #41 and #50 for your brave postings (understandably anonymously) and the wisdom reflected therein. To echo Suzanne’s words (#40), “I think people will just have to decide for themselves. There is now, plenty of information (documented!) for consideration.”

    — Living in a Fallen World    Feb 1, 12:51 PM    #

57. #51, I’m glad you posted. You bring up a very important question – evidence. You said: “I don’t see one shred of evidence in ANY of this conversation.”

    This is pretty much what I have been hearing from current students. It’s Heather’s word against the school’s word. It’s Suzanne’s (Dr. Hudson’s 1st wife) word against the school’s word. It’s many of the alum’s words against the school’s statement of, “In no way does this settlement imply any admission of wrong doing on our part.” Sounds pretty black and white eh Jeff (#54)?

    What is the allegation? The allegation that Heather made is that the school’s leadership (i.e., Dan) knew there was sexual misconduct nothing was done about it. Many of the alums who were here when Dr. Hudson was teaching and “disappeared” see a pattern being repeated.

    #51, since you are (as you say) not affiliated with the seminary, I think it would be good to draw your attention to post #36 and #40. The author of those posts is the former wife of one of the professors (Dr. Hudson) who was involved in sexual misconduct. The State of Washington apparently found enough evidence to strip him of his license.

    #54 (Jeff) do you have a response to #36 and #40? Or will you ignore her like Dan and Becky have? Is she “raging” and “vengeful” as the school paints Heather out to be?

    — grad    Feb 1, 12:52 PM    #

58. Nice counseling technique #57 . .. . . false quilt. I certainly hope you are not in private practice or in the counseling arena at all. Pretty scary. It seems like there may be a problem at MHGS. I would encourage anyone on this site who truly wants to see things change to follow the path of reconciliation that wes exchibited at Mars Hill Church, referenced in an earlier post. If you are unwilling to do that, *which by the way is the biblical model”; then one has to assume you merely want to voice your somewhat uniformed opinions (barring Ms. Hudson in her particular situation). I do not and have not gone to MHGS, but am a Christian who who read about the scandal and was deeply sadddened. I am further saddened and unfortunately appalled by just about everyone’s post on this site. Christians, the unchurched world is watching. as #55 said, let’s attempt to model Christ.

    — Cindy Smith    Feb 1, 03:26 PM    #

59. I have spoken with one person who is still a student at MHGS. I have also contacted TRACS, the accreditation organization for the school’s accreditation standing. The TRACS office was helpful, aware of the situation and suggested I talk with Dr. Russell G. Fitzgerald, Executive Director of TRACS. That initial meeting by phone will be in early February, when he returns. You can download and read through the entire Standards section at their website at: http://www.tracs.org/. TRACS: Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, P.O Box 328, Forest, VA 24551, 434-525-9539. You can learn about what Heather Parkinson-Webb is doing now at: http://www.greenwichchaplaincy.org/aboutus.html and learn about what Kirk L. Webb is doing now at: http://www.drkirkwebb.com/Dr._Kirk_Webb/Home.html

    — Mike Jones    Feb 1, 05:58 PM    #

60. Hey Tragic,

    You have some advice for me?I really need a life and your words seem, well, almost sacred. Divine.

    Show me the way.

    At your feet,

    Lost

    — Western Seminary Seattle grad    Feb 1, 06:07 PM    #

61. Mike, thanks for taking a positive step towards understand and reconciliation.

    — Concerned    Feb 1, 06:22 PM    #

62. You beat us to it Mike. I, and several others plan on contacting TRACS accreditation as well. I think this is a positive and appropriate next step. We will keep you all posted.

    — wss grads    Feb 1, 09:16 PM    #

63. What the hell is the matter with you people? She is not the one who screwed around on him! There is a child involved here….HIS. He screwed around on her….with a student…isn’t he? He is the one who tore the family apart! If you think she is the culprit… you can kiss both sides of my skinny ass!!

    — kiss my ass from hell    Feb 1, 10:37 PM    #

64. To Mike and “wss grads” (#62): Thank you for your willingness to delve into these matters further and attempting to keep things positive. Please be careful, too… We attempted to do the same thing (delve further, help, keep things positive, etc.) when MH was going thru the accreditation process with TRACS (applicant=> candidacy=> accreditation) and… let’s just say it wasn’t a pleasant experience (a learning one-yes, but pleasant-no). We were seen as trouble-makers/rabble-rousers (faculty at one point instructed to “keep an eye on” us). For that reason, we believe it is wise to remain anon. here. If that lessens the value of this post, then so be it, yet we hope you will consider our words. Godspeed.

    — anon.    Feb 1, 10:38 PM    #

65. WOW #63, HOW RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of the posts on this site are in Heather’s favor so where you get that people are against her is beyond me. I am a little offended at your choice of words and your posting name. Makes me wonder what is going on with you. Blessings.

    — another grad    Feb 1, 11:04 PM    #

66. another grad… you have no futher value here… ignorance has finally defeated you. please stop embarassing yourself . and us… just stop for now… for all of our sakes.

    — again...    Feb 2, 12:21 AM    #

67. RAMDON??? Mine is not to hurt Heather nor anyone else. mine is to help others see both sides of this story. A family torn apart by a man ( & I am a man) for his selfish reasons, or shall we call it what it is, “LUST”, so what does the bible say about LUST. Oh, is that WRONG? Maybe!!!! Let’s see what His word says about family, Love, marriage and COMMITMENT to your wife/husband. give us a break, someone has been wronged here and I don’t think it was him. We love Heather and encorage her to go forward, get real and get over the rest of this stuff. -. How is it that kirk appears to have gotten away scott free and those he hurt are paying the price, Once again, kiss bothsides of my skinny ass….....

    — kiss my ass from hell    Feb 2, 01:23 AM    #

68. Looks like a bad moon risin’

    — Western Seminary Seattle grad    Feb 2, 01:26 PM    #

69. This is the most histerical set of blogs I’ve ever read. It’s better than comedy central. the ex grad school support recovery group. Do you have ANY idea how pathetic you all sound? Honesty?? You have to be the sickest bunch of wackos on the internet. And you all went to a counselling school? You obviously all came out more wacked than when you went in. How much did you pay for those degrees? I love it. Here’s a graduate degree, and a few extra pathologies to go with it. keep those cards and letters coming people – this is better than TV!!

    — Highly enterrtained    Feb 2, 07:36 PM    #

70. MHGS President’s E-mail to Alumni:

    Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008

    Subject: From Dan Allender to MHGS Alumni

    “Dear friends,

    If I believed in the gospel when we began Mars Hill Graduate School 10 years ago, I do so with far more intensity and conviction. And if I believed in spiritual warfare 10 years ago, I do so today with far more conviction and hope. The end of a long period of heartache has come with the resolution of a lawsuit that Heather Webb brought against the school two years ago.

    The accusations made in the lawsuit are simply not true. We continue to hope for peace and reconciliation and grieve the loss of relationship with Heather who was both a founder and a significant presence for God in the classroom and in student’s lives. While in hindsight there could well be things we wish had gone differently, we did not discriminate or retaliate against Heather as she has claimed. We are deeply sorry that our attempts to care for and support her during a very painful time of her life were experienced as harm. We did our best with what we knew at the time to act within the bounds of ethical, legal, and spiritual bounds, and regret that it did not suffice to comfort and care for her as intended. We are grateful for the many, many voices of encouragement and support that have come out and rallied to our side – for all of your kindness, we thank you. We are grieved that our relationship with Heather came down to such destructive and vengeful ends. We remain in prayer for her and hope that she can now return to her life’s passion of doing the work of the kingdom of God.

    Please pray for us all that we might all grow into the fullness of Jesus Christ. This process has been heartbreaking and costly to so many who were unwittingly embroiled in the fray against their volition, but I want the outcome to be a gift of grace that winnows us, matures us, and calls us to a more faithful heart for his glory. If this is a taste of death—and it is; may it be as well a sweet taste of resurrection for us all.

    Sincerely,

    Dan Allender”

    — an alum    Feb 2, 07:49 PM    #

71. It seems a little dangerous to enter this discussion but here we go. My name is Ben Wilson. I attended Colorado Christian University the year Dan Allender was prohibited from teaching in the masters level counseling program in 96-97. I had Kirk and Heather as professors in a couple of classes. I went to a semester long seminar led by Dan Allender and Don Hudson.

    One of the principle themes at CCU and I’m sure at Mars Hill is owning ones glorious dignity and ones hellish depravity. We are all a mix. That’s evident in this situation.

    Dan is a brilliant man. At the time I also thought he was one of the most arrogant men I’d ever met. He’s blessed many and helped them heal and at times he is extremely selfish. CCU’s counseling program became a kinder, gentler place under the leadership of Tom Varney.

    I read a proverb this morning from The Message, ‘The purity of human hearts is tested by giving them a little fame.’
    I believe that is part of Kirk and Heather’s story. Two younger folks with some talent who came to be professors at a respected Christian counseling program before their time had really arrived. They gained ‘rock star’ status with some of my classmates which I didn’t get so much. My own arrogance probably seeps in through that statement but that was my observation.

    They were asked to step in because of a mass exodus of professors from the CCU counseling program which happened in part due to a falling out between Larry Crabb and Dan Allender. It was messy.

    So Kirk and Heather move to Washington to help start MHGS, get their Doctorates, start writing books, and oh by the way, do marriage. The outcome of that is somewhat predictable. I hear similar stories all the time at marriagesrestored.com.

    There is a lot to go into (not that I know the details of the divorce, law suit etc.) but really it is just details. And the details aren’t that important. Just more examples of depravity.

    With regards to Christian counseling programs here are my observations. There is tremendous arrogance and overconfidence amidst incredible life change and spiritual growth. Remember, I’m a product of one of those counseling programs and consider my years involved there as the years of incredible spiritual and relational growth. That growth includes being more aware of my depravity and my dignity.

    One, there is arrogance in seemingly having the gospel figured out better than anyone else does. “We, yes we, really know what Jesus was getting at”. And, “Surely, surely since we have this deep insight into who we are as God’s children and how we become who we are and we learn how to relate more authentically then our relationships will be safe from hardness of heart and destruction”.

    Its a sad and tragic occurrence each time a marriage fails for one of my classmates or former professors. But it happens and not infrequently because of the overconfidence that exists in learning about relationships. Just because Don H. and the Webbs could speak eloquently about relationships didn’t mean they knew how to do relationship better than anyone else. And the effects of their fallenness tumbled downward onto their family and friends and former students.

    Even so all three have touched my life positively. Through listening to Don I learned to value the small holy moments with my kids. I was touched by Heather’s vulnerable sharing about a miscarriage during a class at CCU. Kirk helped me to look creatively for the gospel in places I ordinarily wouldn’t have.

    Even Suzanne, Don’s ex-wife has touched me though we’ve never met. She counseled my former pastors wife. The pastor that I had an up and down relationship with. She told her, “Kim, listen to the 1% of your heart that still wants to be married.” Kim and her husband are doing great today. I sometimes repeat that or something like it to couples or individuals that I’m counseling because it rings true for me and my experiences in my marriage. It makes it all the more sad for me with what’s gone on for Suzanne and Don.

    Dan’s books have blessed me tremendously. I refer to Wounded Heart all the time when counseling women who have been sexually abused. I used his book ‘to be told’ recently in a small group at church and we were all blessed immensely by the places we were led by his writing. He has so much to offer the hurting and those who help them.

    My years at CCU were some of the best of my life. My friendships became deeper and more honest. Life became less black and white. I learned to have more compassion instead of condemnation (constantly needing help there) and I learned the gospel isn’t about doing all the right things but more leaning into the right person and giving out of gratitude. I still have an online group with a third or so of my classmates from 11 years ago who were equally blessed by the changes in their lives.

    So, I don’t think MHGS should be shut down or not accredited. I just think students should go there with open eyes.
    Professors and other students will profoundly impact your life and change you forever. That would include any of the professors previously mentioned. And professors and other students are capable of deeply disappointing you through affairs, arrogance, concealment, contentious court battles and other flavors of depravity. The flavor doesn’t matter; it’s just another form of depravity.

    — Ben Wilson    Feb 2, 07:54 PM    #

72. typical. They are so big in God’s Kingdom that “spiritual warfare” follows them every where…not to mention “the high, high cost of being a leader”. It’s never that they have done anything wrong. (well, maybe a few minor things as we think back, but nothing REAL bad….)True martyrs they are.

    Hardly.

    Their venegeance theme is an old one, but clearly it works with alum and grads, after all, they trained them to think that way, so it’s a great way out….they aren’t wrong, she’s just rageful and vengeful, you know, how we taught that all people are if they have a problem with us?? We’ll pray for her though, we are that cool.

    Hardly

    — graduate and beyond    Feb 2, 10:56 PM    #

73. Dwight, you did it with Mark, you can do it with Dan.

    Get a group together. Pastors, alums, faculty, staff and current students.

    — hopeful grad    Feb 3, 01:22 AM    #

74. #73 – Dan’s not a pastor – he won’t do what Mark did – different gifting and place in the body of Christ – different understanding of what leading is – a different person – more a business man than a pastor – more a counselor than a pastor – more about the advancement of the institution than a relational church body (even though he is a counselor – but understand a counselor and professorial teaching is only “half” of a relationship that is only one way) – and maybe that’s the way it should be – b/c he’s not a pastor – and I have never seen or heard of him being in a situation where he has had to lead pastorally or submissively – it’s not who he is or who he has had to be – but he has greatly benefited the body of Christ as a teacher/counselor (and leader of the school in some ways) – he’s more of a CEO than a pastor

    I just cannot see Dan ever “really” doing that. other than to advance some other vision/agenda – it’s not what I have gathered as his vision of who he is or should be in the greater body of Christ – even Dan’s (and Dwight’s) income, living, is not just “off the gospel” but is off of people paying for an education and specific training – some people may think it is a “church” and disagree with me – but if it is a church I think it’s missing vital parts of what Scripture seems to attribute/assign to a body of Christ – notwithstanding it’s missing certain types of spiritual leadership input and mutual submission – Dan is the “President”

    besides…Dwight might think Dan has no reason to do that…much less be in a place to ask that of the PRESIDENT of the school at which Dwight is not a fellow pastor of Dan’s but rather Dwight is an employee UNDER Dan, the PRESIDENT, in an accredited (or soon to be or whatever) graduate school – that is NOT a church or body of Christ

    It might be that the “almighty dollar” will determine the future – students continue to show up and pay – then the school continues no matter what anyone thinks about the education or training – I would consider that there are much worse places out there :-)

    — a pastor    Feb 3, 11:43 PM    #

75. Pastor,

    You are absolutely correct. He is untouchable where he is – “The President”. The law however (and his insurance co,) have made a very recent statement, which he and his team, disagree with, and they continue to deny wrong doing – other than she did not take the “care and comfort” they offered in the right way.They deny “retaliating” which it is indeed hard to prove a motive like that, however, many people on this forum seem to see that as quite the pattern for them…. They are now appearing to be the victims, but why would the insurance pay that much money….well, there are only a few logical answers.

    Liscensed psychologists must abide by the code of ethics that they agree to for their profession. Dual relationships are cause for suspension and liscenses being revoked. Dual relationships among other things, include taking money from former/current clients, money for something like a “school or ministry”. It would also include socializing with former/current clients.

    — graduate and beyond    Feb 4, 11:11 AM    #

76. Isn’t there a board of directors that Dan is accountable to?

    — - grad    Feb 4, 01:59 PM    #

77. My conversation today, February 4, 2008, with Dr. Fitzgerald, executive director of TRACS
    1) There are policies and procedures that also exist that apply to the Standards that are downloadable from the TRACS website.
    a) TRACS is not allowed into internal affairs of a school
    i) Thus not involved in grades, faculty issues
    ii) Those are internal issues, unless they are a clear violation of a standard
    iii) Dr. Fitzgerald said he was only slightly aware of the lawsuit settlement
    b) I asked how I would determine what a clear violation of a standard would be
    i) It would have to be an issue concerning accreditation
    (1) This would be accomplished by:
    (a) The school doing its Self Study
    (b) That information would then be judged by a focus group / evaluation team of TRACS and then by the commission at TRACS
    (c) I confirmed with Dr. Fitzgerald that the 5 year Self Study is coming up for MHGS
    (d) The information in the Self Study would be looked at from an assessment and a mission accomplishment standpoint
    (e) If something comes up (it was not so clear what would be done, but it sounded like the issue would be invited to be dealt with over the then following 5 years, up to the time of the 10 year assessment). [hummmmm…]
    c) I was told that I do have the liberty to file a written complaint
    i) TRACS would look at it
    (1) Dr. Fitzgerald would, along with his attorney, look at it and determine if it had merit to be addressed
    (2) I asked if, because it was being reviewed by an attorney, if the written complaint should be more simplistic or more exhaustive in nature.
    (a) It is up to me to determine which approach I would take
    (b) Dr. Fitzgerald suggested that I be more simplistic, outlining my complaint clearly, and to sign it
    (c) There have been only 3 or 4 written complaints filed over the past 5 or 6 years, with one not being signed and thus not considered
    (3) I asked where I could best get a copy of the faculty handbook for MHGS
    (a) Dr. Fitzgerald said that the faculty guidelines can either be in a general handbook, or in a separate faculty handbook, separate from the student handbook
    (b) He said that they have DVD copies of all such information, but they cannot give out such information without the school’s permission, thus I should contact the school directly for such information. They can, however, check and compare the information that I receive to the information they have on file.
    (4) Thus, I think the best approach would be to submit a signed concise written outline complaint, with an exhaustive as possible second document of supportive information.

    — Mike Jones    Feb 4, 04:18 PM    #

78. to -grad #76, yes, Dan has a board of directors… that he appointed.

    — alumnus    Feb 4, 09:17 PM    #

79. speaking of leadership…kind of ironic what is on the front of their website in light of all things written here :-)

    — matt    Feb 4, 09:44 PM    #

80. I understand and appreciate the anger being expressed by many here. Much harm has been done by the school and its leaders in the way they have responded to this situation and in the stories we have read here. However, I do not understand why some would like to see the school lose its accreditation. In an effort to get back at Dan and the school why would former students harm themselves by seeing the value of their degree lost if the school loses it accreditation? If successful, you not only get even with the school but you put at risk the ability of hundreds of others to make a living if the school’s accreditation were revoked. The settlement of Heather’s lawsuit makes the point that there are significant problems whether the school leadership acknowledges it or not. However, even her lawsuit did not pursue the school’s demise. Let the point she courageously made be honored without bringing harm in the process to many others who count on the investment they made in their education and training to hold its value.

    — 03 Grad    Feb 4, 09:55 PM    #

81. A complaint submitted to an accrediting organization is to potentially trigger corrections and improvements to be made within the organization. See TRACS and NWCCU accreditation websites: http://www.tracs.org/standards.htm and http://www.nwccu.org/Complaints/ComplaintProcess.htm

    — Mike Jones    Feb 4, 11:43 PM    #

82. I understand your concern, #80.

    For what it’s worth, I did much research on the issue of accreditation when MHGS first went independent.

    Just a few thoughts:

    Were the school’s accreditation “revoked” (and I assume you mean that with TRACS), I believe only current students who have yet to graduate would be impacted. (That is, those holding degrees from accredited years of MHGS would most likely still be considered as having degrees from an “accredited institution,” since the school would have been accredited when they got their degrees.) Further, with respect to those pursuing counseling, only those who wish to pursue licensure in states that accept a nationally accredited degree, such as under TRACS (NOTE: this is currently WA state and a handful of others (check out some other states’ Dept. of Health and/or LPC Boards, and you’ll see what I mean)), would be impacted. At present, the majority of states require a regionally accredited degree (again, check out other states’ websites for confirmation) — something MHGS has not yet been able to offer (it appears they are now pursuing regional accreditation with NWCCU — see http://www.nwccu.org/Directory%20of%20Inst/State%20Map/Washington/Washington.htm — but be sure to note what this webpage says about both the “applicant” and “candidate” stages of accreditation).

    In any event, it appears that registering a complaint with TRACS (see Post #77) would not necessitate a “revocation” of MHGS’ accreditation (see Post #81).

    — Graduate    Feb 5, 12:08 AM    #

83. As of 2005, MHGS is an applicant school with the NWCCU, a regional accreditation organization.
    NWCCU – Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities http://www.nwccu.org/index.htm

    The NWCCU person I spoke with today said that there was no advantage of an institution first having a program specific accreditation (as TRACS could be viewed as), as a precursor to pursuing a regional accreditation standing.

    As he explained it: there are two types of accreditation for WA, regional and program specific. It is my understanding that TRACS is closer to what a program specific accreditation organization is, but is listed under faith-related accrediting organizations. In a regional accreditation process, the entire institution is considered. Most program specific accreditations are for institutions such as dental schools, or law schools, or medical schools. The TRACS website, however, also seemed like it involved the entire institution in regards to the accreditation process, and is a national accrediting organization. It seems to be preferable to be a member of a regional accreditation organization rather than a program specific organization, per the literature I have read. See sites such as: http://www.worldwidelearn.com/accreditation/index.html and http://www.chea.org/Directories/index.asp to try to make sense of these distinctions.

    MHGS is the only school in the 7 state region which the NWCCU encompasses that is listed on both accrediting association’s institution lists – as an applicant institution on NWCCU and as an accredited institution on TRACS. Western Seminary was accredited in 1969 with NWCCU.

    A number of the other NWCCU colleges in WA have a Christian focus. The three other TRACS schools in WA, besides MHGS, are seminaries. Do any schools in other regions also seek/desire/are accredited by more than one accrediting organization?

    TRACS description of accreditation: “Accreditation indicates that the institution has provided evidence that it is in substantive compliance with the Standards and Criteria, has been peer evaluated after completing a self-study, and in the professional judgment of the on-site evaluation team and the Accreditation Commission, the institution provides quality instruction, student services, adequate facilities, etc. Accredited institutions have achieved this level of recognition through continuous self-study and evaluation.”

    NWCCU description of accreditation: “Regional accreditation of postsecondary institutions is a voluntary, non-governmental, self-regulatory process of quality assurance and institutional improvement. It recognizes higher education institutions for performance, integrity, and quality to merit the confidence of the educational community and the public. Accreditation or preaccreditation by a postsecondary regional accrediting agency qualifies institutions and enrolled students for access to federal funds to support teaching, research, and student financial aid.”

    — Mike Jones    Feb 5, 01:20 AM    #

84. First, I want to thank Mike for all the research and links that he has provided. And for placing his name with them so that I would know that I could trust them because I remember him from class (assuming that no one else is impersonating him.)

    Next, I hope to reach out to those that were hurt by the Mars Hill process, and ask that they remember some good that came of it as well. I learned to write poetry, in large part because I had the priviledge of letting a very messed up Don Hudson introduce me to his ideas. And I learned a better way of relating to people because Heather Webb taught me spiritual direction and was my faculty mentor for mentored ministry. I am thankful to both of them and all the founders and glad of the influence that they had in my life.

    I’m also aware of my own culpability. I came to Mars Hill because it was messy and relational and because it was a place where professors also got to be real human beings. I was part of the student body asking for access to my professor’s lives. I had dinner in their homes and met thier families. I took classes after practicum both from and with my lab facilitator. I believed what they taught about relationship in large parts because they broke the dual relationship rules.

    This isn’t to condone the problems that I don’t know about that may have arisen. But I am grateful for the experiment that tried something new. I am hopeful for the current students and the new faculty that they will be better able to hold to the spirit of why the rules are there while still being able to remain human enough to not have to cut off relationship because of the letter of the rules. That they could follow the example of Jesus and the Sabbath better than this thread has shown has happened in the past.

    — Jeff Baker, MDiv, CSpDir 2005    Feb 5, 03:36 AM    #

85. Mike (#83) asks, “Do any schools in other regions also seek/desire/are accredited by more than one accrediting organization?”

    I’d suspect it would have to do with what degree programs are offered… Undoubtedly, one of the reasons MHGS is pursuing regional accreditation is in regards to the counselor licensure issue (see Post #82). Again, the majority of states require regional accreditation (which MHGS does not yet have) for counselor licensure.

    — Graduate    Feb 5, 10:27 AM    #

86. #84, you said: “I believed what they taught about relationship in large parts because they broke the dual relationship rules. This isn’t to condone the problems that I don’t know about that may have arisen. But I am grateful for the experiment that tried something new.”

    I think you are incredibly naiive. Regardless, what is it that you “not know” ? or not want to know?

    FACT: Dr. Hudson was married 3 times in 18 months during the 2002/2003 season also sued by his student, Jody E. who won her case and his therapy licence revoked by the State of Washington.

    FACT: Kirk married the student that Heather alleged he was having an affair with.

    Two questions are yet to be “proven” fact.
    1. Was there “proven” misconduct (sexual, whatever) that should have resulted in immediate termination by Dan?
    2. Was Dan aware that it was going on, i.e., was there a “cover up”?

    According to Dr. Hudson’s wife at the time: YES (see post #36, #40). According to Kirk’s wife at the time: YES (court documents)

    I hate to say this. I am too frustrated by it all, but Heather settled. Game over. I appreciate your efforts Mike, but unless you or someone out there has 1st hand evidence that Dan knew about what was going on, it really is not going to do much. It’s going to require a whistleblower from the inside or an actual student who can testify first hand of sexual misconduct or whatever people want to call it.

    — game over    Feb 5, 03:23 PM    #

87. At a school, such as MHGS, that desires to depart from generally accepted dual relational role parameters, and to enter into somewhat of an experiment in MA counseling education, and desires to advance a Christian perspective within that educational framework, then I do think it would be wise to have documents in place that guide it in such situations as we are discussing – documents that students and staff would not be in doubt about. Given ‘culture’ as part of Soul, Text, Culture (a motto of the school), as Charlie Rose said/showed last night (on the PBS, Charlie Rose show, about the Super Bowl commercials, where he was showing the Coke commercial, that because of truth in discovery, he needed to reveal that his show was also sponsored in part by Coke), truth in discovery is important in building credibility. I believe this relates to the accreditation process in a profound sense, both in terms of the 5 year review through TRACS and the applicant status with NWCCU.

    I had an excellent conversation with Dr. Judith Wilde V.P for Recognition Services with CHEA, the Council for Higher Education Accreditation. She has been the most informed person to date on the topic of accreditation. http://www.chea.org/About/index.asp

    In many cases of this nature (the MHGS vs. Heather Parkinson-Webb lawsuit) that are settled out of court, there remains a gag order on both parties after the settlement. Sometimes this means that the parties cannot talk about any of the details of the settlement afterwards. Thus if they cannot, then TRACS could not address those issues. If they, both parties, have given public details, which they both have in this case, then it still depends upon each accrediting organization, individually, how they would respond to the issues that came up in the lawsuit settlement.

    CHEA has its set of standards, but those standards only say that each accrediting organizations must have their own set of standards, not what those standards should be.

    It is appropriate to submit good documented data to a school’s board of trustees if one feels that the written complaint filed with the accrediting organization has not been acted upon (which is their option to act or not act on a complaint). Remember that the primary criteria used by an accrediting organization is that of classroom standards and qualifications (faculty and otherwise). Especially if you believe that there is a pattern of behavior that has been exhibited by past faculty and that this pattern of action negatively impacts students, then it would be appropriate to pursue such actions with both TRACS and the school’s board of trustees. “What a reasonable person might infer from,” might be a good guideline when assembling such documentation.

    It is a positive component of accrediting organizations that they elicit public involvement in this process, thus it is very much within the rights of anyone in the general public to be concerned of such matters and express their concerns.

    In terms of the differences in accreditation: Given the differences of regional vs. national accreditation, they both still involve all programs in a school. All 8 regions of regional accreditation are governed by the Department of Education – this accreditation then allows federal dollars to come into the school. From the federal government’s standpoint, they are looking more at issues related to auditing. From CHEA’s standpoint, they are looking more at a quality standpoint, including encouraging schools, and helping them to continually improve.

    A school’s programmatic category of accreditation can be because of it being a faith based school or a career based school. There are slight differences between a school being a programmatically based school and one seeking a regional accreditation status.

    As these issues pertain to licensure, the laws on licensure can generally can be viewed as pertaining to either a school’s regional accreditation or simply any accreditation (which could be a national or a faith or a career based context). TRACS would be a national accreditation but some states could view it as only a faith based context. Each state is different as to how their laws apply written in these areas. Most laws will say they honor “a” regional accreditation, not the specific region of accreditation that your state falls in or that your school is in. Thus it is valuable to go back and ask state licensure boards very specifically what they are requiring. TRACS is pressing to be honored in more states as more than just a faith based accreditation organization.

    Thus depending upon the state you live in, a regional accreditation for a school you want to attend can be more valuable for that institution than a national accreditation would be, and of course for you if your state does not honor that national accreditation, but this again seems to only be related to licensure issues, but it could be more than that.

    MHGS’s statement on accreditation: “MHGS holds national accreditation through the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS). For students pursuing a Master of Divinity degree it may be important to note that MHGS is an associate member of The Association of Theological Schools (ATS.)

    For students pursuing Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology degrees and eventual licensure, it is important to determine accreditation. Mars Hill Graduate School is currently pursuing candidacy status with the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities. When granted, this will afford students a degree form an institution with both national and regional accreditation. In the meantime, prospective and current students must take responsibility for researching and being informed of all licensure requirements for applicable states.

    If eventually seeking ordination, it is wise to consider denominational requirements as pertaining to seminary accreditation.”

    — Mike Jones    Feb 5, 05:18 PM    #

88. Note that a line appears to have been omitted from the MHGS accreditation statement shared immediately above:

    “MHGS holds national accreditation through the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS). For students pursuing a Master of Divinity degree it may be important to note that MHGS is an associate member of The Association of Theological Schools (ATS).

    For students pursuing Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology degrees and eventual licensure, it is important to determine whether or not their home state will recognize national accreditation. Mars Hill Graduate School is currently pursuing candidacy status with the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities. When granted, this will afford students a degree from an institution with both national and regional accreditation. In the meantime, prospective and current students must take responsibility for researching and being informed of all licensure requirements for applicable states.

    If eventually seeking ordination, it is wise to consider denominational requirements as pertaining to seminary accreditation.”

    Note that the above appears to be only found as a FAQ at http://www.mhgs.edu/common/faq.asp and is more detailed that the statement provided at http://www.mhgs.edu/common/accredit.asp?m=ps.

    It is interesting to contrast the above FAQ answer — again, which appears to be only found at one place on the website — with what is stated in the current Academic Catalog about the MACP “Program Goals” (see p. 34 of catalog at http://www.mhgs.edu/pdf/Catalog-0708.pdf):

    “Program Goals

    In addition to the school’s general educational goals, the M.A. in Counseling Psychology program

    endeavors to achieve the following goals:

    1. Prepare students for a professional counseling career. Many states offer certification or

    licensure for the counseling profession. Although the educational requirements of many

    states can be met through the M.A. in Counseling Psychology program, it is the

    responsibility of each student to determine her/his state’s requirements and plan an

    educational experience to meet the requirements.”

    Absent regional accreditation of MHGS with NCCWU — not its current “applicant” status or potential future “candidate” status (which would apparently occur along the way to “accredited” status with NWCCU) — it is not clear how “the educational requirements of many states [(emphasis added)] can be met through” the current MACP program.

    Thus, it is INDEED “the responsibility of each student to determine her/his state’s requirements and plan an educational experience to meet the requirements [(emphasis added)]”, as further stated at p. 34 of the current Academic Catalog.

    — students' friend    Feb 5, 07:06 PM    #

89. Correction to the above (#88) — make that NWCCU throughout —

    With apologies for any confusion, I remain…

    — students' friend    Feb 5, 07:26 PM    #

90. latest TRACS newsletter:

    http://www.tracs.org/issue207update.pdf

    — mh student    Feb 6, 05:40 PM    #

91. from http://www.tracs.org/issue207update.pdf:
    TRACS NOW CLASSIFIED AS FAITH BASED ACCREDITING AGENCY
    Transnational Association of Christian Colleges & Schools, along with three other accrediting
    agencies are now classified as FAITH BASED. This move puts TRACS in a category that essentially removes it from among the listing of NATIONAL ACCREDITORS and lists them as FAITH BASED. TRACS is currently recognized by the DOE, CHEA and INQAAHE as a NATIONAL INSTITUTIONAL FAITH BASED ACCREDITING AGENCY, ACCREDITING COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES AND SEMINARIES THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AND COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.

    I wonder how
    states that accept “national accreditation” will feel about ‘faith-based’ accred. agencies? I have always maintained that boards of counseling/mental heatlh intended ‘national’ accreditation to mean CACREP/APA accreditation.

    — alumnus    Feb 7, 03:22 PM    #

92. To Game Over: Clarification: There was a JUDGMENT against the school, not a settlement. They are not the same. That is why the information is public and is not sealed. Guilt is implied.
    Yes, Dan knew what was going on, as did Mike McCoy, Chairman of the Board. I know because I had conversations with both of them about this. Roy Barsness (then Academic Dean) imposed a “no contact” rule on Kirk and the student. When they broke it, he turned a blind eye. Why? Roy and Kirk were very good friends…Kirk helped Roy get the job at MHGS. The “boys” decided to quietly force Heather out so they would not have to deal with Kirk’s “boundary issues.” She was not as compliant as they expected, so they got “ugly.”
    Boundary problems seem to be inherent in the MHGS model…very disturbing and dangerous.

    — Former donor    Feb 7, 07:20 PM    #

93. Ding, ding, ding …

    We have a winner!

    Doesn’t get more clear than this.
    Thanks former.

    — Western Seminary Seattle grad    Feb 7, 08:26 PM    #

94. WOW.

    Maybe the game isn’t over.

    — game over    Feb 7, 10:44 PM    #

95. With a little bit of research we might find that the average age of the MHGS student body is considerably younger than it was in the first near decade of the school’s existence. There could be implications coming out of a shift, such as this. And with the school now being located in downtown Seattle, it might also be discovered that there is less social contact between students outside of the classroom now, than when the school was located in Bothell, and thus maybe less discussion about issues such as this lawsuit settlement. Entrance requirements have changed considerably; that can be easily shown – bringing in people with more overall academic credentials, but maybe not more life experience credentials. Also the guidelines for student conduct have changed, possibly because of past incidents. How alumni, as compared to current students, view the lawsuit settlement may be significant.

    To date, I do not know what the faculty handbook says about faculty conduct, or if there is a faculty handbook, which TRACS requires. But after reading all pertinent sections in the student handbook, see post #88, faculty guidelines are not listed in this year’s student handbook. I do know that the 2004-2005 catalog http://www.mhgs.edu/pdf/MHGSHandbook-0708.pdf shows “2007-2008” on the opening page, but the data does not match that at http://www.mhgs.edu/pdf/Catalog-0708.pdf., so I think it is the 2004-2005 catalog at this site. This is the year Heather filed the lawsuit. The code of conduct for that year is located on page 16. Note especially the following sentence, which is a subset of the larger section, entitled, Sexual Harassment Policy, which I do not see in the current catalog. “In third party situations one individual is offended by the sexual interaction, conduct, or communications between others.” Thus this policy was explicitly in place when Kirk had the alleged affair. I propose that the third party is any other student who is offended by being taught by a professor that is having an affair with a student. Or, it is any student who is offended by being in the classroom, especially Practicums, with a student who is having an affair with a faculty member. Or, it is any faculty member, (this would clearly include Heather) who is offended by another faculty member having an affair with a student (especially if it is your husband having the affair).

    The incident of Don Hudson’s behavior with a student didn’t seem to trigger an update to the student handbook about faculty having affairs with students. Or, maybe his affair was not with a student of the school, but with a client. I’m not clear on this from the information posted. But then again we would have to define what an affair is. Could an affair be just dating, or could it be dating including romance, or does it apply only to intimate sexual behavior? It would be valuable to be able to assemble past handbooks, and to consider how Western Seminary differentiates between MHGS handbooks and theirs in terms of their disciplinary guidelines.

    Code of conduct for students begins on page 8 of the 2007-2008 handbook. It would be interesting to try to interpret this particular section: “These examples do not identify all unacceptable conduct, but indicate the types of conduct clearly inconsistent with the expectations of Mars Hill Graduate School”: particularly bullet point six: “Sexual harassment: Any unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors or other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature is unacceptable.” Is harassment only about what is unwelcome? Then consider this. Would we consider it harassment to have to be a student at a graduate school in counseling, that claims to teach from a Christian perspective, who subjects fellow students to taking Practicum classes where personal issues come up regularly, including issues related to you as a student and your dating interactions with a faculty member of the school?

    Consider this section: “The institution is committed to fostering respectful interpersonal relationships within a diverse community.” Would it be “respectful” to other students, for a particular student to have an affair with a faculty member? Or would this fall under what would also be considered “clearly” unacceptable? If the student refuses to stop the affair, would “unacceptable” fall upon an administration that did not enforce the “unacceptable” behavior by actions such as suspending the student, and putting the faculty member on paid leave of absence? Would it be respectful to students to allow a faculty member who is having an affair with a student to continue to teach other students without them being informed that the faculty member is refusing to follow the no-contact regulation put in place by the school’s administration?

    However you work out the “ors” in bullet point six to have the sentence read a certain way; it still seems to only apply to issues of sexual harassment – sexual behavior that is unwanted. Is this the escape clause now to be able to officially allow affairs between a consenting faculty and a consenting student but to not allow sexual harassment?

    This student body may not be as aged wised, overall, as past student bodies were, and thus might not react to things in the same way that past student body members do. Heather’s lawsuit settlement may not sit with them in the same way it does for past students of the school.

    Finally, I offer these sections for consideration, from page 3-4 of the 2007-2008 catalog: “The catalog is for purposes of information and does not constitute the irrevocable terms of a contract between the graduate school and current or prospective students.” And, “A student’s ignorance of a policy, which appears in published student documents, particularly the catalog or student handbook, is not a valid reason for granting an exception to any policy.”

    And this from page 1 of the 2004-2005 catalog: “The student handbook is the guide for providing information and alleviating confusion about how to make your time at school most productive. Please read through the handbook. As a faculty, administration, and staff we will do our best to provide you with the information you request.” And, “[the handbook] …is a repository of some (certainly not all) of the ways we wish to do life together as a learning community.” It might be that the confusion I feel is in how the 2004-2005 catalog was not applied to the issue of Kirk’s alleged affair. Thus, this seems to pertain to accreditation issues.

    — Mike Jones    Feb 8, 12:51 AM    #

96. As a former staff member of MHGS, I have observed the destruction, deception, manipulation that is not appropriate to those who name the name of Christ. While Dan has said that he is glad God uses donkeys to speak since he himself is an ass – still, I’ve got to wonder about the fruit the school is producing: betrayal, loss, deception, abuse, and harm. I have watched a multitude of staff casualties leave because they could not remain with integrity or they have been forced out when they knew too much or didn’t serve whatever purpose of the screwed up system. I am sorry for the lives of students and staff alike that have been harmed.

    Dan mentioned in his letter that he hoped Heather could now return to her life’s passion of doing the work of God. Perhaps it was the work of God that exposure occur, that there be another opportunity for repentance and restoration of relationship, two things I have not witnessed in the current leadership of MHGS.

    Suzanne and Heather are women of impeccable integrity, strength, and conviction. Grace and peace to all who love our Savior with an undying love.

    — former staff    Feb 11, 06:51 PM    #

97. From: Paul Steinke <psteinke@mhgs.edu> [Add to Address Book]
    To: Paul Steinke <psteinke@mhgs.edu>
    Subject: from Dan and Ron
    Date: Feb 11, 2008 3:55 PM
    Greetings MHGS Student Community,

    Three weeks have passed and as you have become aware by now, while we were in Ethiopia, a lawsuit between MHGS and former colleague Heather Webb was settled. We are so grateful for the overwhelming kindness and support so many of you have expressed to us in these past weeks regarding this issue. It has meant more than you might possibly know. Because we were out of the country at the time of the settlement, we felt it important you hear something of our hearts and reflections as we have navigated this situation alongside of all of you. Though we would have liked for you to have heard from us sooner, we felt it important to let the dust settle just a bit while we make our way back into life here in the US. While we continue to hold fast to the hope and grace of the gospel, not surprisingly, there have been days when we have done so with peace and faith, and there have been days when our humanity helped grace elude us.

    Before we returned from Africa, you received communications from Paul Steinke attempting as best we could to keep you informed, so we won’t try and cover that ground again. Given the unexpected suddenness of the settlement, and the timing of our being out of the country, many of you first found out about the settlement through various news sources before you heard from us. We apologize for any awkwardness and/or confusion this may have created for you. And we also understand for many of you the settlement is “old news” and for others of you it remains cause for concern. Regardless of where you find yourself in that spectrum, please know we continue to desire conversation as you find it helpful.

    By now, most of you have seen the official legal “statement” issued by our attorneys. Legal statements, for all they offer, don’t provide anyone the luxury of speaking to the reality of real-life relationships. Please understand our statement of “legal innocence’” is in no way an attempt to skirt relational responsibility. As you all well know, relationships, especially over long periods of time and intense periods of life, are full of complexity and ambiguity. The relationship between Heather and us is no different. The fact it failed makes half of the failure ours as relationships are always a two-way street, regardless of how they are painted. In the course of our relationship, there are ways we failed Heather, and for that, we have deep sorrow and regret. Though such failure belies our mission and values, it is with such failure that we cling to the hope the gospel offers for grace and redemption, and yes, transformed relationship. Over the past eleven years, MHGS has endured many transitions – some more tumultuous than others. Throughout these transitions, we’ve learned much – often more from our failures than our successes. Regardless, we are not the same institution we were when we began and throughout this time have made several necessary changes – both as leaders and as an institution – to ensure we might continue to create a context for transforming relationships.

    This said, it is important to note we did not do the things Heather claims we did: We did not retaliate against her for filing for divorce; We did not discriminate against her because she was a woman and therefore pay her less money. Those are legal constructs that allow plaintiffs to assess monetary damages against defendants. The settlement amount was determined entirely by the insurance company with no input from us but was dramatically less than would have been the cost to go to trial.

    Heather Webb played an instrumental role in the founding of Mars Hill Graduate School and in its early years of growth. She is a gifted woman with many talents, and she was a friend. It has been personally painful to us and to others in our community who worked so closely with her to see how this entire situation deteriorated. We continue to pray for her and the restoration of our relationship. In addition, we continue to pray for those in our midst who bore the burden of this case privately before a settlement was reached. We would ask that you keep Heather in your prayers now – that she can move forward with her life, using her talents to further the work of God’s kingdom – and for MHGS – that we might continue to learn what it means to be a place of repentance and reconciled relationships.

    Please, if anyone asks you about Heather or this situation outside the MHGS community, we would ask you make no disparaging remarks of any kind, but that you instead live up to the relational standards to which we are all aspiring.

    If you have seen the student activities calendar, you may already know that Anamchara has schedule a Community Conversation for Tuesday, February 26th from 4-6PM so we can come together as a community and talk about all aspects of our life together. We will eagerly look forward to being with you, to seeing one another’s faces out from behind the cold and impersonal nature of emails, and to anticipating with you the kind of community we remain hopeful of continuing to create together as the days and years unfold. And of course, in the meanwhile, if you have any questions or thoughts on this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us directly and we’d be glad to respond as best we can.

    With His Kindness and Hope,

    Dan & Ron

    — a weary, wary current student    Feb 13, 06:43 AM    #

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