'I Suffer Not a Woman to Teach'

Wednesday, April 11, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time

Julie Ingersoll, an associate professor of religious studies at the University of North Florida, is the author of Evangelical Christian Women: War Stories in the Gender Battles (New York University Press, 2003).

A transcript of the chat follows.

Thomas Bartlett (Moderator):
    Hi there. I'm Tom Bartlett, a reporter for the Chronicle of Higher Education. Our guest today is Julie Ingersoll, an associate professor of religious studies at the University of North Florida. She is also the author of the book "Evangelical Christian Women: War Stories in the Gender Battles." Let's get right to the questions.

Question from Liz, small state regional university:
    What message do you think that Southwestern Baptist University sends to young women students there?

Julie Ingersoll:
    Hi Liz, Thanks for the question. Well this is something that has been raised by the women in contested positions at these schools. Since Baptists are "congregational" the denomination has no real authority to prohibit women pastors. Women do train for the ministry at these schools. I think the message sent to them is pretty clearly discouraging. There's the explicit message in the rhetoric and hiring but there are also more subtle examples; limits on opportunities to practice preaching and leading, for example.

Question from John N. Salazar, Jr. of Baylor University, private institution:
    In terms of HR, is it legal for these private universities to discriminate on the basis of gender? They may not accept federal funding, but are they allowed to discriminate on this basis being an institution of higher education in the U.S.?

Julie Ingersoll:
    Hi John, I am not an attorney or a legal expert. My guess is that they have some latitude public institutions do not (based on claims of religious freedom) but often these cases are not framed directly as gender discrimination. Furthermore, much of the actual discussion and decision making is not public (tenure and promotion, for example.)

Question from Jennifer Ruark, CHE:
    How does the Southern Baptist Convention's position on women's role in the church compare with that of other conservative Christian denominations?

Julie Ingersoll:
    This is a great question. There's a lot of variation. Often people outside the conservative Christian world don't realize how complex it is. George Marsden has written extensively about this. "Conserative Christianity" that we see around us today is actually an amalgam of a number of traditions that disagree on things like this. So Pentecostal and holiness churches are very conservative but they often allow female leaders. Non-denominational churches often do too (but then sometimes don't.) Also, I don't think you can even talk about "the" position of the SBC. The reason these conflicts happen is because people in the SBC disagree. You don't pass resolutions about things everyone agrees on, right?

Question from Thomas Bartlett:
    In your book, you write about the rise of evangelical feminism in the 1970s. Is the conservative turn among Southern Baptists, in some way, a reaction to evangelical feminism?

Julie Ingersoll:
    I think it probably is. First books like "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: a response to evangelical feminism" have played a big role. Plus I think fundamentalists who worked to take control of the SBC through the 1980s did so because they felt it has "drifted to the left."

Question from Katheryn, Trinity:
    Hi Julie, As a former professor at a Southern Baptist seminary I was treated at times with great respect and at other times with, well, I will just say my theology was questioned. I consider myself to be a conservative, so my question becomes one of ethics. Do you believe it to be ethical for So. Baptist seminaries to accept So. Baptist females students, particularly at the doctorate level in theology, and then refuse to hire them? Please explain your answer.

Julie Ingersoll:
    Hi Katheryn, Nice to hear from you--though I'm not sure I have an answer for you. It seems to me that that's a question for Southern Baptists to answer.

Question from Matt, large community college:
    Do you think that this same mentality also impacts how evangelical seminaries view minorities as well and limits hiring practices? Even though evangelicals see such stances as biblical, do these stances result from hermeneutics or more from the cultural legacy of sexism and racism?

Julie Ingersoll:
    This came up in my interviews. Conservative Christians have come a long way in terms of their views on race. Many of the women pressing for equality see the conflicts as similar but those who oppose female leaders disagree. They prefer to draw a line between race and gender--and they see women's claims to leadership as more similar to gay and lesbian claims--which they reject. I'm one who thinks hermeneutics is always rooted in cultural legacies. I don't believe there is such a thing as a-cultural interpretation.

Question from Kathy, SEC university:
    I have read that in most churches, women typically make up a greater percentage of the membership than men. Do you think that by limiting theology faculty positions to men only, the education that is provided to the male-only students may pose limitations in terms of quality and breadth of perspective?

Julie Ingersoll:
    Women do make up the greater percentage of members. Some see this attempt to re-masculinize the tradition as an effort to address that in ways that will draw more men. Remember the "Men and Religion Forward" movement of the early 20th Century? In terms of quality and breadth I certainly think this is a limitation but, again, that's for them to decide. One would have to have an interest in promoting Baptist education to have a position on this question that matters.

Question from Jennifer Ruark, CHE:
    Do you see any signs that Southern Baptist seminaries will become more receptive to female professors in the future?

Julie Ingersoll:
    I do think these things are cyclical--though I see few signs of a turn around at this point. Finke and Stark's "The churching of america" has some interesting things to say about how these forces work in America's "free market" for religion.

Question from Matthew, large public university:
    As you mention in the article, the Bible appears to be making seemingly contradictory statements about the role of women in positions of authority. How do you reconcile these opposing statements? (For example, Kroeger and Kroeger suggest alternative translations of 1 Tim 2:12 in the Appendix of "I Suffer Not a Woman: (Baker Books))

Julie Ingersoll:
    I'm not a theologian so I don't really reconcile them, I study two social movement that offer competing "reconciliations." If you're asking how one of the sides reconciles certain passages, let me know which side your asking about and which passages and I might be able to help.

Question from Lynn, Baptist college:
    In the late 70's and early 80's things seemed to be opening up for women in the SBC and many thought the fundamentalist movement would be a temporary thing with the pendulum eventually swinging back toward the middle. Do you see any indication of this happening in the current SBC?

Julie Ingersoll:
    I don't see signs of it yet but there's some good historical evidence that this is how things work. Margaret Bendroth, and Janet Hassey before her showed how in the early 20th C. fundamentalists trained women for the ministry. Moody Bible Inst. for example gave ministry degrees to women. Bendroth argues that fundamentalists didn't lead the return to restrictions on women but followed the changes in the larger culture in the 1950s.

Question from Thomas Bartlett:
    A number of women left (or were pushed out of) Southern Baptist seminaries in the early 1990s. What, in your opinion, led to this exodus? Was it about doctrine, or gender, or both?

Julie Ingersoll:
    It was framed as doctrine but I think it was about gender. The case I have the most experience with was Diana Garland's firing at Southern in Louisville. They didn't fire her because she was a woman she got caught in the efforts to change the seminary's views on women. She was Dean of the School of Social Work and trying to hire faculty to maintain her accreditation. The seminary instituted new statements of "orthodoxy" everyone had to sign. Of the four points on the statement three were about one's views on gender--including women's ordination. This was after already signing statements on traditional orthodoxy and even inerrancy.

Question from Matt, large community college:
    Thank you for your answer and a quick follow-up question. Is the resistance to see gender issues in the same light as race due to the evangelical concept of the "slippery slope"? In other words, is there a fear that the elevation of women will somehow lead into acceptance of sexual preference? Do you see this as inconsistent given that evangelicals have been more willing to see the cultural sin of racism in recent years while decades ago race was the "slippery slope" issue?

Julie Ingersoll:
    I absolutely think it is about an alleged "slippery slope." And the Piper and Grudem book I referenced before makes point this explicitly. They say that one of the reasons gender equality can't be biblical is that it would lead to the legitimation of homosexuality. That book was made the Book of the Year by Christianity Today. (in 1993?) I guess it's inconsistent in a sense but I think everyone's worldviews are filled with inconsistencies--so this is no different.

Question from Kathy, SEC University:
    What about local church governance? As more and more women members are educated, have incomes and expectations of having a voice in how things are run, are you seeing internal struggles related to traditionally male-dominated church governance at the local level? Are there successful examples of conservative churches adapting to the changing world around them? What are the anticipated outcomes for churches that do not adapt?

Julie Ingersoll:
    It depends on what you mean by "adapt." There are some pretty good studies that show that by reigning in the changes and increasing the tension between a congregation and the larger culture, churches grow. The churches that "adapt" by becoming more like the surrounding culture tend to decline in numbers (again, Finke and Starke are a good source for this.) That might not be the adaptation you were looking for though.

Question from Margaret, CSU:
    Do you believe that a woman's role in the church differs from her role in education? If women are granted doctoral degrees from Southern Baptist institutions, how are they expected to use those degrees professionally? As scholars, professors, etc?

Julie Ingersoll:
    Hi Margaret, I think you're asking me what women's roles ought to be and I really can't answer that. I can tell you that the Baptist institutions that take the stand that women shouldn't be leaders but then educate them for those roles would tell you that Baptist polity is congregational (that is, controlled at the congregational level) and if individual churches disagree with the seminary's stance they are free to hire women (and do!)

Thomas Bartlett (Moderator):
    We have arrived at the end of our chat. Thanks for all your great questions. And thanks to Julie Ingersoll for being our guest today. See you next time.

Julie Ingersoll:
    Thanks to all of you. This has been really fun and interesting. Julie