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| From the issue dated December 8, 2006 |
Breaking Bread: Horowitz vs. Bérubé
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Michael Bérubé and David Horowitz have said some not-very-nice things about each other over the years. There was, for example, the time that Mr. Bérubé referred to Mr. Horowitz as a "sorry old fraud" and a "right-wing lackey." That was kind of mean.
Of course, Mr. Horowitz has called Mr. Bérubé "mindless" and "shallow," which isn't exactly polite.
Mr. Bérubé, a professor of literature at Pennsylvania State University at University Park and author of What's Liberal About the Liberal Arts?, has made merciless sport of Mr. Horowitz on his eponymous blog (http://www.michaelberube.com). He refers to him as "D. Ho." or, on occasion, "He Who Shall Not Be Designated By His First Initial and a Drastic Truncation of His Surname."
Mr. Horowitz, the higher-ed provocateur and indefatigable author, listed Mr. Bérubé among the 101 most dangerous academics in the country in his book The Professors. In it he writes that Mr. Bérubé is interested only in "the imposition of left-wing fashions," not the pursuit of knowledge.
Mr. Bérubé wrote that the book was "full of jaw-dropping stupidities and boneheaded errors."
Oh, and let's not forget when Mr. Horowitz more or less accused Mr. Bérubé of being in league with terrorists. Soon thereafter Mr. Bérubé, who briefly considered suing over that particular statement, speculated that Mr. Horowitz was becoming "truly and fully unhinged."
With all that in mind, several of us here at The Chronicle thought it would be a grand idea to invite Mr. Bérubé and Mr. Horowitz to lunch. At best they would engage in a spirited discussion about various hot-button issues. At worst they might go after each other with the cutlery. Either way, we'd get an article out of it.
Bérubé: I guess I have to get off at least the hello line— | |
Horowitz: The opening shot? |
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1 Bérubé: Madam speaker— this is good. But we're waiting for Madam President. That's when the shadow party takes over. | 1 Mr. Horowitz has a new book, which he wrote with Richard Poe, called The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party. According to the book, the "Shadow Party" plans to rewrite the U.S. Constitution. |
Horowitz: Probably will happen. You'll notice I'm not depressed. That's because I'm not depending on legislatures. |
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The lunch took place just a couple of days after the Democrats crushed the Republicans in the midterm elections, regaining the House and the Senate. Mr. Bérubé, to his credit, kept the gloating to a minimum. It's worth noting that, even though they've been writing about each other for years, the two men had never met. Mr. Horowitz and Mr. Bérubé admitted to pre-lunch jitters. And while they both immediately agreed to the meeting, each expressed doubt that the other would be willing. |
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2 Bérubé: Let's go back to the two-Horowitzes theory. When you did this profile on the University of Colorado some weeks ago, you listed there as seemingly illegitimate any number of courses on gender and sexuality. Come on, you want to talk about the free marketplace of ideas, queer folk get to be in the marketplace too! You say you're a gay-friendly Republican, and most of the time you are, but when you list courses like that you know what kind of response you are asking to get. | 2 Mr. Bérubé's two-Horowitzes theory is, in short, that there is a reasonable David Horowitz who writes thoughtful memoirs and a less-reasonable David Horowitz who appears on Fox News. |
Horowitz: We'd have to have the course in front of us. The issue is whether it's a study of gender, with the view that, you know— Let's put it this way. Let's simplify it. The way I see it being taught is that there are gender, race, and class hierarchies. Now I don't believe there are such hierarchies. |
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Bérubé: Okay. [In a stage whisper:] That's one of our differences. |
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Horowitz: Yes, if you're going to teach about race or gender or class, you need to provide perspectives that there are hierarchies and there aren't; that's part of the intellectual debate. |
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3 Bérubé: What you do by posting these course descriptions at the University of Colorado, it demonizes every course that touches these things ... | 3 In September, Mr. Horowitz posted an article on his Web site (www.frontpagemag.com) that went after several courses at the University of Colorado. The courses, with titles like "Queer Rhetorics" and "Sex and Gender in Society," were deemed nonacademic by Mr. Horowitz. His forthcoming book, by the way, is titled Indoctrination U. |
Horowitz: You send me a women's-studies syllabus that isn't instilling a doctrine, that's actually academic. I will post it. |
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Bérubé: I've got one on my hard drive. |
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Horowitz: I'm not saying that none exists. I'm saying I haven't come across one. But if you have one, I will post that and say "This is what a women's-studies course should be." I'm not saying there aren't decent people in the university; there are. |
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Bérubé: Wellllll. What I'm saying is it's an indiscriminate thing to post all these course descriptions or course lists of the University of Colorado— |
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Horowitz: I spent a lot of time on that! It's not indiscriminate! |
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Bérubé: Yes, it is. It suggests that any teaching about gender and sexuality is advocacy. |
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Mr. Bérubé tears through his hanger steak like he hasn't eaten in weeks. (In fact, he complains that his breakfast was below par.) Mr. Horowitz picks judiciously at his halibut. |
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4 Horowitz: There's two Michael Bérubés also. | 4 Mr. Horowitz's two-Bérubé theory is that there is a more serious Bérubé who he thinks largely agrees with him, and then there's the Bérubé who mocks Mr. Horowitz on his blog. |
Bérubé: There are eight, nine Bérubés. |
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Horowitz: If you keep the comedian out of the room— |
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Bérubé: That's what I'm saying. Can't be done. But go ahead. |
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Horowitz: Well, there are two. I've read your books. |
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Bérubé: And I say there are eight. |
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Mr. Bérubé is a bit of a fidgeter. He places his chin on his hands, pinches at his eyebrows, leans back then lurches forward suddenly, crosses and uncrosses his legs, fiddles with the sugar packets. Mr. Horowitz is calmer, slower, and charmingly disheveled. He keeps notes on scraps of paper stuffed in his coat pocket. Sometimes he gives the table a gentle karate chop to emphasize a point. |
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Horowitz: You take on Colorado, anything I've written about curriculum, I will engage it. And we can see. |
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5 Bérubé: Let me go back to an earlier point and go back to what Roger Bowen would or wouldn't say. I have to be honest here: We don't trust you, man. We really don't. We think that if we sit down— you say that if we engage you, you will go away. We don't believe you. Gotta let you know that. | 5 Roger Bowen is the general secretary of the American Association of University Professors. Mr. Bowen once described Mr. Horowitz's proposals as "an academic bill of wrongs." |
Horowitz: I didn't say if you engage me. |
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Bérubé: But if you address these things in such and such a way. |
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Horowitz: If we got onto discussion— "Yes, David, there are problems. We think there are a lot less than you do, but they're there. And we're prepared to deal with the—" |
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Bérubé: Then you would go away? We don't believe you. We read The Art of War. |
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6 Horowitz: The Art of Political War was written about electoral politics. | 6 Publishers Weekly called Mr. Horowitz's book The Art of Political War a "blunt, savvy, Machiavellian manual on the art of political campaigning." |
Bérubé: So there are three David Horowitzes. |
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Mr. Bérubé was in town to speak at the annual meeting of the Midwest Modern Language Association. Mr. Horowitz was flying out of Chicago that afternoon after speaking at Ball State University, in Indiana, where a student tried unsuccessfully to throw a cream pie in his face. |
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Horowitz: I'm not against women's studies. I'm against a feminist indoctrination program. |
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Bérubé: I'm against any indoctrination program, partly on the grounds that they don't work. |
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Horowitz: No, also on the grounds that they're illiberal. |
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Bérubé: And they're illiberal and they piss people off; they make conservatives into even more fierce conservatives. One thing I say in my talks is who, after the Ward Churchill thing broke, actually said "You know, he's got a point. We are like little Eichmanns. I've never thought of it before." No, it was a terrible moment for the left. |
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Horowitz: That's hardly the issue. |
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Bérubé: No, it is very much the issue, about what kinds of public speech are good for the left. |
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Horowitz: Tell me why the AAUP didn't leap in and say how did Ward Churchill get [to be] a goddamn chairman of the department of ethnic studies, which means he's teaching minority students? How did he get that with an M.A. in graphic arts? Why aren't you up in arms? |
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Bérubé: Actually there was an internal investigation of Ward Churchill, come on. |
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Horowitz: No, there was because the governor of the state called for firing him, which I opposed. |
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Bérubé: I know you were opposed. I noted that. |
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Horowitz: You guys have to defend the standards. |
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Bérubé: Let's keep the Churchill thing straight, though. Someone who even answers the question stupidly and reductively as he does is still entitled to ask the question: "Is there such a thing as collective guilt in a superpower?" That's a legitimate research question; it's not a First Amendment question. |
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Horowitz: You treated me in your book as though I'm attacking the ideology. As though I have an objection to left-wing ideas in the university, which I don't and I haven't. It's the standards that are gone; they've just been eroded. And you guys would be smart actually to enforce standards because you're so dominant in these fields that you've redefined them in ways so that they are left-wing fields. But you don't even enforce your own standards. |
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Bérubé: With Ward Churchill, someone was asleep at the wheel, that's for sure. But otherwise we do pretty well— |
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Horowitz: Someone? A ton of people. The whole department that hired him, that promoted him, that gave him tenure, that made him chairman, and the field! |
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Bérubé: I can use "someone" in the plural sense. But seriously— |
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Horowitz: You need to read my introduction because I explain why it's a system— as leftists would say, a systemic corruption— |
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Bérubé: See? Still a leftist in that way. Good. |
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Once during the lunch, Mr. Horowitz pointed at Mr. Bérubé with a morsel of half-eaten bread. |
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7 Horowitz: It's a whole corrupt department. It's called the history-of-consciousness department. | 7 The history-of-consciousness department Mr. Horowitz is referring to is an interdisciplinary graduate program at the University of California at Santa Cruz. According to its Web site, the department is "concerned with forms of human expression and social action as they are manifested in specific historical, cultural, and political contexts." |
Bérubé: That's not a corrupt department. That's a great department. |
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8 Horowitz: Michael, Michael! Hayden White? | 8 Hayden White is a professor of comparative literature at Stanford University and professor emeritus at the University of California at Santa Cruz. His books include Metahistory: The Historical Imagination, which deals with how historians shape events into a narrative. |
Bérubé: Hayden White is a brilliant guy. |
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Horowitz: He's a phony. |
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Bérubé: No, he's not. |
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Horowitz: Ah! |
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Bérubé: You're punching above your weight, man. |
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Horowitz: You would like that part of my speech. I actually spoke at Bowling Green. I shouldn't do this, but I spoke at Bowling Green, where professors came with the revolutionary communist party— |
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Bérubé: Who is the revolutionary communist party now? |
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Horowitz: —who chanted "George Bush and David Horowitz get out of the way. Christian fascists, U.S.A." |
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Bérubé: It doesn't scan well, but okay. |
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Horowitz: I said you guys are progressives. You teach six to nine hours. If you taught 18 hours a week, this is a working class area— |
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Bérubé: Are you still saying that? Do you really think we work six to nine hours a week? Fifty-three hours a week, that's the national average. |
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Horowitz: All right. Let me finish. |
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Bérubé: It has to be a dark and cloudy night to sneak that one by me. |
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Horowitz: If you extended your teaching load to 18 hours a week— |
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Bérubé: Like high school, yes. |
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Horowitz: Then the working-class kids in this area wouldn't have to pay $15,000 a year. |
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Bérubé: Do you really think that's a plan? It doesn't have to do with state support? It doesn't have to do with the fact that the student-loan industry is entirely controlled by Republicans? |
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Horowitz: It's a distraction. |
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The two met at the Custom House in Chicago, a restaurant that features "ingredient-driven cuisine with a strong Mediterranean influence." The chipper waitress never asked why there were three tape recorders on the table. |
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Bérubé: But bringing up the student-debt thing, I'm quite deliberately changing the subject because if you ask the vast majority of students—and I think it has everything to do with the withdrawal of state support for public higher education—would you rather have a liberal professor teaching an American novels class— |
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9 Horowitz: You don't think it has anything to do with paying bloviating emptyheads like Cornel West $35,000 for an hour? | 9 Mr. Horowitz once wrote an essay titled "Cornel West: No Light in His Attic." Mr. West is a professor of religion at Princeton University. He left Harvard University after a public falling-out with Lawrence H. Summers, who was president then. |
Bérubé: Cornel West, he looms large in your consciousness I know, but, no, he is not responsible for tuition increases. He's really not. Even the superstars. You know perfectly well what the numbers are. Tuition has been up 10, 12, 15 percent year after year after year for 15 years. Everyone knows it; Republicans know it, Democrats know it, people out on the street know it. |
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Horowitz: It's because universities waste monstrous amounts of money because there's no accountability! |
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Mr. Bérubé's new book, What's Liberal About the Liberal Arts? is, at least in part, a direct response to Mr. Horowitz's campaign to make universities more accepting of conservatives. |
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Bérubé: I thought you were going to come back with this, so therefore I will give you this one: The reason we've lost the state support is because we're these liberal-progressive oases in largely conservative areas— |
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Horowitz: Then you should welcome me because I'm your savior! |
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Bérubé: I won't go that far. |
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Horowitz: Yes! Because— |
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Bérubé: If only we'd appointed David! |
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Horowitz: No, no, no. You need to reassure the public, and the way to do it is to show that you have standards that are academic and not political litmuses. |
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Mr. Bérubé is known for hyperverbiage, but though his words spill out quickly, they usually form complete, thoughtful sentences. Mr. Horowitz is a careful, deliberative speaker, one who is adept at raising his voice when someone tries (usually without success) to interrupt him. |
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Horowitz: My view of it is that you can't teach Marxism without understanding what its real-world consequences were. You can argue that it can be modified in order that it not produce those. You can even argue that it didn't produce those, but you need to face those questions. You can't do it if it's in a literature department [Horowitz gives the table a soft karate chop for emphasis.] who have no expertise in the relevant areas. That just doesn't work. |
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10 Bérubé: Yeah, but Sam Richards went after you about you going after other people's expertise. ... | 10 Mr. Horowitz wrote of Sam Richards, a Penn State colleague of Mr. Bérubé's, that he "has never met an anti-American conspiracy theory he didn't like." Mr. Richards has called Mr. Horowitz's book a "shoddy publicity stunt" and argues that it "grossly maligned and misrepresented" his work. |
Horowitz: I liked Sam when I met him, but it doesn't satisfy me that he knows what he's talking about. I'd have to be in his class. |
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Bérubé: Okay, but really you don't want to try to come off as arbiter of all world knowledge. |
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Horowitz: I wouldn't presume that— |
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Bérubé: You talk a lot about who's qualified to teach in their disciplines and who isn't. |
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Horowitz: Sam Richards, who is a nice guy— |
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Bérubé: Much more relaxed than I am, that's for sure— |
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Horowitz: I know he is. That's true. You gotta watch that as you get older ... |
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On his blog, Mr. Bérubé has written that Mr. Horowitz is "intellectually dishonest" and "kind of unethical." |
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11 Horowitz: I've got a lot of experience in the public arena, and it's very unsatisfying intellectually, I assure you. I will tell Sean Hannity he should have you on, but— | 11 Mr. Horowitz is a frequent guest on Sean Hannity's Fox television show. Mr. Hannity is the author of Deliver Us From Evil, which seems to equate terrorism and liberalism. Mr. Bérubé expressed his desire to appear on the show, but, as is often the case with the Penn State professor, it was not entirely clear that he was serious. |
Bérubé: I promise I won't speak so quickly on TV. |
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Horowitz: I assure you it's an unsatisfying experience. That's why this needs to be done within the academic community. |
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Mr. Horowitz says regularly that although he was a Marxist at Columbia University in the 1950s, his professors never treated him poorly because of his politics. |
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Bérubé: For this and other things, in cases where students grieve against professors for reasons that have nothing to do with politics— they have to do with sex harassment, a hostile dissertation director— there should be an ombudsperson. No question about that. My questions are two, more comments really than questions. Let me swallow my bread. | 12 Mr. Horowitz founded Students for Academic Freedom, a watchdog group whose Web site includes a forum encouraging college students to document when professors inject their politics into the classroom. |
Horowitz: I agree. |
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13 Bérubé: Complaining about the Iraqi flag; that's not a legitimate complaint. | 13 On the site, one anonymous student once complained about a professor who "talked about flags as symbols of states and argued that new Iraqi flag was not a result of a transparent and fair process. Argued as fact that new flag had similar colors to Israeli flag and that this could be problematic. Claimed as fact that other Arab societies had red, green and black in their flags. Very biased. Had no visual proof of this." |
Horowitz: If I had more money, I'd hire somebody to clean that up. All I do is I put up the professor's reply. I would take it off in a second if I had response out of the academy. If they said, "Yes, we recognize there are some problems. Horowitz wildly exaggerates them," whatever you want to say, "and we will take care of them, and this is what we're going to do." I'm gone. I tell you, I've got other things to do. I am gone. |
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Bérubé: Let me write that down. This actually leads to my second point. Your argument is that you have to exaggerate, you have to do this sound-bite thing to get the attention. |
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Horowitz: [grunts his disagreement] |
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Bérubé: You didn't say that? About the sound-bite culture? |
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Horowitz: No, look, I'll give you the sound bite. ... It doesn't really matter. I know from talking to kids; I've got all kinds of cases. I know that there are a minority of professors, because I asked them, the kids that I interviewed, they'll tell me, "This professor is a left wing." They'll say, "He's a liberal, but he's very fair. And I like him." So I know that there are a lot of people who are leaking their frustrations in class. |
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On his Web site, Mr. Horowitz accuses Mr. Bérubé of trying to bury him in "verbal sludge." He also writes that Mr. Bérubé and professors like him "gracelessly dominate" university faculties. On his blog, Mr. Bérubé writes that: "I have always been struck, for instance, that Horowitz has no sense of humor whatsoever, and I'm afraid I have used that against him rather mercilessly." |
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Horowitz: But I have said I believe the vast majority of professors, since they are mainly on the left, the vast majority of liberal- left professors are scholars, and they're doing a decent job. |
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14 Bérubé: Yeah, but you included Eric Foner anyway. So you know. | 14 Eric Foner is a professor of history at Columbia University and one of the most dangerous professors in the country, at least according to Mr. Horowitz's book. |
Horowitz: I included Eric because he wrote the preface to— I included you probably because I knew that you would get excited and generate a lot of publicity— |
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Bérubé: Thank you. |
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Horowitz: I did distinguish you as someone who supported the Afghan war and opposed the Iraq war. |
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Bérubé: And look at where that got me. |
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On his Web site, Mr. Horowitz writes that "radicals like Berube can't be bothered to actually read or respond rationally to anything that ruffles their progressive feathers, let alone be concerned about the fact that their entire political focus since 9/11 has been in getting our terrorist enemies off the hook." |
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Horowitz: I grant you that there's a polemical David Horowitz and a more— |
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Bérubé: We get to the obvious. |
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Horowitz: And, say, a more thoughtful one. But I feel that people should be able to distinguish that. If I'm on Hannity & Colmes, that's a political arena— |
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Bérubé: But we talked about why you don't get invitations from the faculty because we don't know which guy is going to show up. |
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15 Horowitz: No, look. I mean you can have quarrels with some of the things; anybody can disagree with parts of The Professors, but it's a serious book with a serious thesis that not one single liberal leftist has dealt with. | 15 Mr. Horowitz has maintained that he did not come up with the subtitle for his latest book: The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America (Regnery, 2006). He says it was his publisher's idea. |
Bérubé: But you really did clothe that argument in the introduction with this list. Come on, of course the list draws the attention. Of course it does. |
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Horowitz: I didn't make the list. |
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Bérubé: I know, I know. |
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Horowitz: You guys made the list. I fought the dangerous title and I lost. |
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16 Bérubé: We didn't make the list. Sami Al-Arian and I have nothing to do with each other. He campaigned for Bush in 2000, and look at the job he did. | 16 Joan Wallach Scott is a professor of social science at the Institute for Advanced Studies, in Princeton, N.J. She was formerly chairwoman of the AAUPÕs committee on academic freedom and tenure. Tariq Ramadan is a Muslim scholar who was denied a visa to teach in the United States. And Sami Al-Arian was a computer-engineering professor at the University of South Florida who pled guilty to providing services to Palestinian Islamic Jihad. |
Horowitz: Wait a second. Joan Wallach Scott, whom you do have something to do with, has said that Al-Arian and Tariq Ramadan are the two main persecuted professors. You can't escape that. If you would deal with that, you would find an ally in me. |
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Bérubé: Well, I'll put in a brief that Tariq Ramadan should be allowed into the country. Sami Al-Arian, on the other hand, like I say, I don't see why he gets to be one of ours. He probably did help to put Bush over the top in 2000. |
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Horowitz: Because the AAUP defended him. |
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Bérubé: The AAUP defended him because the USF [University of South Florida] dismissed him without any due process. Once the court decision was ruled against him, the deportation, the AAUP went along with that. But simply firing someone simply because they're called out by Bill O'Reilly still isn't kosher. |
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For dessert, Mr. Horowitz ordered fruit cobbler without the cobbler. Mr. Bérubé settled for a cappuccino. |
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Horowitz: You have more experience with students than I do. I'm amazed. I have these Republican kids who sign up— the reason I'm at Ball State is this kid signed up for a peace-studies course and thought he was going to learn about war and peace, and it turned out to be this guy recruiting people to his anti-military, nonviolent movement. I think the culture has been eroded. |
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Bérubé: Don't you find from the students you're talking to that they're not fooled by this? Let me ask: What actual effect does this have? |
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Horowitz: What you were saying earlier is part of my speech. The kids who suffer the most are the liberal kids because they don't get challenged. The conservative kids, if they open their mouths, they gotta know how to defend themselves. They're the kids who learn a lot . So to me it's the— |
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Bérubé: That's what I'm saying; it's not good for liberals ... |
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Horowitz: Well, maybe we'll start a movement together when this is over. It's the integrity of the academic process to the radicals conducting their radicalism, but just not in the classroom. They should be teaching— |
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Bérubé: But you do draw a lot of examples in The Professors from things that people do not do in the classroom but that they wrote in various newspapers and what have you. You're taking me back to when we first sort of e-met. ... There's this guy who's quite serious and smart and sober and says, "Yeah I do these things for various political reasons, but there's a core of my argument that has merit and should be dealt," and then there's the flamethrower who says, "Bérubé has been colluding with terrorists since 9-11." |
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Horowitz: I didn't say that. |
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17 Bérubé: I'm eliding two things. I was colluding with the radicals who were taking over the university and my entire political focus has been getting our terrorist enemies off the hook, and you confused me with Lynne Stewart. | 17 Lynne Stewart is a 67-year-old New York lawyer convicted of aiding and abetting terrorists. |
Horowitz: I said that? |
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Bérubé: You said "radicals like Bérubé." That's what sent me over the edge. That made me angry. |
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Horowitz: Send me that quote. I'll retract it. |
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Bérubé: Okay, cool. And I'll retract a few things. See? We're getting somewhere. |
The Post-Mortem
Mr. Horowitz says he was nervous about meeting with Mr. Bérubé. "I didn't know if it was going to be the most unpleasant lunch I've ever had — just nastiness," he says. "I feel like the invisible man. I get these attacks that compare me to Stalin, McCarthy, when there's nothing I do to warrant a charge like that."
But he was surprised. "We had a really good time," Mr. Horowitz says. "I would lunch with him again if that Michael showed up."
Mr. Bérubé was also concerned that the lunch could turn ugly and was pleased it did not. "It was more civil and edifying than one could reasonably expect," Mr. Bérubé says. That said, the Penn State professor hasn't let his guard down. "I meant it when I said we don't trust him."
Mr. Horowitz says he doesn't regret including Mr. Bérubé among the most dangerous professors in the country because he "has dug in his heels in defending a university which is increasingly becoming a platform for indoctrinating people in left-wing views."
Asked whether he will treat Mr. Horowitz more gently on his blog in the future, Mr. Bérubé replies, "Oh, I don't know about that."
http://chronicle.com
Section: The Faculty
Volume 53, Issue 16, Page A8