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Author Topic: Hard to spend time in the Diversity Forum without getting really angry!  (Read 66180 times)
scheherazade
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« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2008, 7:39:29 PM »

Look, I'll be honest: whenever I hear about "300 years of slavery and subjugation," I want to say "talk to the Irish."

This was the post that started it, sockgumbee.  It was obvious to me what Dr. Stones meant, but I can see where you might be confused.  He wasn't saying there was a direct relationship between these groups; he was saying that some groups (like the Irish) have suffered as bad or worse, and they are groups you might not expect.  Kind of a reminder that you don't have to be one of those more easily identifiable minorities to have a personal history of being subjugated.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 7:39:55 PM by scheherazade » Logged

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acrimone
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« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2008, 8:21:11 PM »

Look, I'll be honest: whenever I hear about "300 years of slavery and subjugation," I want to say "talk to the Irish."

This was the post that started it, sockgumbee.  It was obvious to me what Dr. Stones meant, but I can see where you might be confused.  He wasn't saying there was a direct relationship between these groups; he was saying that some groups (like the Irish) have suffered as bad or worse, and they are groups you might not expect.  Kind of a reminder that you don't have to be one of those more easily identifiable minorities to have a personal history of being subjugated.

"Personal history" isn't exactly what I'd call it.
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scheherazade
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« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2008, 9:13:59 PM »

OK, well, family history.  To be honest, it's just as personal as, say, African-Americans who demand reparations.  I've always felt that, although we are all a product of our history, it's up to us to rise above it.  That having been said, it's important to recognize all the subtle and not-so-subtle power struggles between groups (and not just the ones that grab the headlines).

Is that more satisfactory?
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dr_stones
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« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2008, 9:49:38 PM »

If the Irish get reparations from the British, I want one of those big fuzzy hats that the Beefeater guards wear. 
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zarathustra
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« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2008, 10:44:34 PM »


So many perspectives, with little regard to the holistic lives of any non-white ethnic group in this country. 


I'm still stuck on "holistic lives."  Whazzat?
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scheherazade
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« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2008, 10:53:46 PM »

If the Irish get reparations from the British, I want one of those big fuzzy hats that the Beefeater guards wear. 

Hadn't you heard?  The Irish will be paid in sacks of potatoes.
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sockgumbee
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« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2008, 12:23:02 AM »

Look, I'll be honest: whenever I hear about "300 years of slavery and subjugation," I want to say "talk to the Irish."

This was the post that started it, sockgumbee.  It was obvious to me what Dr. Stones meant, but I can see where you might be confused.  He wasn't saying there was a direct relationship between these groups; he was saying that some groups (like the Irish) have suffered as bad or worse, and they are groups you might not expect.  Kind of a reminder that you don't have to be one of those more easily identifiable minorities to have a personal history of being subjugated.

Well you know I'd be cool with all these if y'all could talk about the abjection of other groups in the same way that I can talk about Irish issues. But you can't, because it's all about how if whites can pick themselves up why can't other groups.

OK, well, family history.  To be honest, it's just as personal as, say, African-Americans who demand reparations.  I've always felt that, although we are all a product of our history, it's up to us to rise above it.  That having been said, it's important to recognize all the subtle and not-so-subtle power struggles between groups (and not just the ones that grab the headlines).

Is that more satisfactory?

Would it be more or less personal if we talked about African-Americans that just want a decent grocery store in their neighborhood?
Would it be more or less personal than driving while brown?
Would it be more or less personal than not feeding the Anglophile trolls who seems to like to hang out in the diversity thread and impose their love.

I like how the Irish are continually trotted out as the "ideal" minority. If they can do it, any one can. What about the Poles? They have a history of being invaded again and again for at least as long as the Irish were subjugated by the English. And many of them are Catholic although unfortunately some are antisemitic. What about the Kurds? What about the Koreans? Ever wonder why some of them hate the Japanese? What about . . .

Oh, right they
a. aren't from the British Isles
b. don't have a cool accent
c. U2 & Bono-nuff said.
d. don't show Masterpiece Theater renditions of their literature
e. don't make a good example of liberal politics to ignorant undergrads that can be used in stories later to show cool and tolerance and diversity cred.

Family history? I thought you said you weren't Irish you just studied their history. Did Dr. Stones convert you?

Well this was fun. Look me up some time if you want to learn about the history of Native Americans or Latiina/o. You might, um learn something.

<Yet another instance of a female forumite taking up for a male forumite. What is that about?>
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aandsdean
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« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2008, 12:29:30 AM »

The Irish were enslaved and brutalized by Republicans.

Just like the Aztecs.

Yes, you heard it here.  Cortes was a Republican.  So were Edward the Black Prince and Cardinal Richlieu.

I'm pretty sure both Queen Elizabeth I and James VI/I were Republicans (in the current sense, not in the sense of that time, perish the thought), and James was especially perfect because he fit nicely in a closet with a slightly open door, not unlike a certain Idaho senator.
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Que scay-je?
croaker
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« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2008, 12:55:40 AM »

Its strange, but I've noticed that when people write "nuff said" they tend to keep going anyway.
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ahastar
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« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2008, 1:19:58 AM »

Comparing a group that in one generation could shed indentifying accent and blend into the dominant group with a name/religion change with the systematic racial subjugation of another is crazy. I think reparations are a bad idea but equating Irish bootstrapping with slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and on-going racial prejudice is ridiculous.

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locutus
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« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2008, 1:32:50 AM »

Comparing a group that in one generation could shed indentifying accent and blend into the dominant group with a name/religion change with the systematic racial subjugation of another is crazy. I think reparations are a bad idea but equating Irish bootstrapping with slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and on-going racial prejudice is ridiculous.

Word.

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magistra
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« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2008, 1:49:01 AM »

Hey, I'm Irish and Polish!  I'd like my potatoes now, please!  And we'd really like that recipe for ice, so if you could get on that, we'd appreciate it.  French fries and a frosty cold diet coke will hit the spot.

Y'all know the Klan hates Catholics too, right?  There is still a fair amount of anti-Catholic sentiment in this country, overt or covert (those Ten Commandments they want to put up in courthouses -- funny how they're always the Protestant version). 

Just because oppression hasn't been as bad as recently in a certain area doesn't mean it shouldn't be recognized and dealt with as well.  Because a group's oppression -- according to that group -- is still stressing that community doesn't mean that another group's history and needs should be ignored.  The "how much is too much" discussion on reparitions is an important one not only for society at large, but for the individual communities as well.
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scheherazade
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« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2008, 3:06:19 AM »

Sockgumbee, you horribly failed at understanding any of the points that were made.  You also attributed content to me (and others, apparently) that was never even mentioned.  You went on to wildly misunderstand several parts of the posts, something I can only attribute to poor reading comprehension.  For fun, you tossed in something random about male and female forumites (huh?) and stomped off to pout.  I suspect you simply like to be offended.  Or, you need some pharmaceuticals to mellow out.  Maybe Wild Rose will share if you ask nicely.

As far as the Irish situation supposedly not being equivalent to African-Americans, I say again that you are confusing two distinct groups: the Irish in Ireland and Irish-Americans.  Irish-Americans were treated badly for a generation or two and then mainly assimilated.  The Irish in Ireland have had it far worse, and that is the comparison that was made.  It baffles me how people who know nothing about that particular history are so ready to dismiss its equivalency out of hand.
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voxprincipalis
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« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2008, 8:19:44 AM »

Sockgumbee, you horribly failed at understanding any of the points that were made.  You also attributed content to me (and others, apparently) that was never even mentioned.  You went on to wildly misunderstand several parts of the posts, something I can only attribute to poor reading comprehension.  For fun, you tossed in something random about male and female forumites (huh?) and stomped off to pout.  I suspect you simply like to be offended.

This has been my opinion ever since sockgumbee joined the fora. I was amused to see it demonstrated so clearly in her last post and summarized so succinctly by you, scheherazade.

You can try to argue rationally, but you won't get anywhere, so you might as well save your breath.

VP
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kilpikonna
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« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2008, 10:54:02 AM »

Well, I for one would like to see something more useful than mudslinging come of this discussion.

One question I think is genuinely interesting is -- why do some groups have an easier time assimilating than others?  Clearly similarity of appearance is relevant to the Irish-American/African-American distinction.  Can we find any cases of easy assimilation (let's arbitrarily define "easy" as "happens in a generation or two") where the assimilating group was not similar in appearance to the dominant group?  If so, how did those work?

Stealing some interthreadual information from the Irish abjection thread (and I had to look that word up -- I knew "abject" but somehow "abjection" really didn't feel like a word) -- regarding the Irish-Irish in the North, it sounds like the argument is that they've only made progress because the British stopped intentionally oppressing them.  What lesson can we draw from that?  What persuaded the British to ease up?  What are we doing over here that we shouldn't be doing?

If a comparison is going to be made, goddamnit, it should go somewhere.
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