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Author Topic: Gouging Me Eyes Out!  (Read 6815 times)
amlithist
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2012, 12:06:47 am »

(I really hope this doesn't warrant me a "dear lady."  I might lose it.)

<sitting on hands>  <sitting on hands>  <whistling innocently>  <still sitting on hands...>

Love ya, nucleo.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 12:08:52 am by amlithist » Logged

Every person you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about.  Be kind, always.
mystictechgal
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One step at a time


« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2012, 12:09:54 am »

I just find it slightly amusing (for lack of a better term) that, so far as I have been able to ascertain, our Comp classes teach APA. Virtually all of the classes I've taken suggest using MLA. In actuality, none of my professor's have much cared one way or another as long as we cite and are consistent. I've never had any formal training in any, and I grew up reading books that used Chicago (or one of those variations), so that's most familiar to me.

I've gotten paid to edit PhD dissertation citations in both APA and MLA (I do know how to read manuals)--but, never in Chicago, and my Chemistry professor last semester suggested that I begin using ACS (although that's never even been mentioned to anyone else--my classmates read my lab reports and wonder WTH all the superscripts are about; I like it because I hate reading parenthetical citations, particularly repetitive ones, and it's kind of like Chicago w/o the footnotes).

Citing in any of the above isn't difficult, but the differences can be tricky and remembering which calls for what is a pain. I finally invested in Endnote, which, once I learned to do my final submission in PDF, has worked well. Not sure how well it will work going forward. Now that my laptop seems to have been stolen I have neither a machine with a license, nor do I know how to access my license from a machine I don't own. Once I finally manage to buy a new laptop ($$ I don't currently have) I'll probably have to buy it again ($$); but, I'll probably also have to buy new Office licenses, too ($$), along with my licenses for all the other licenses for software that I've used for years. Nothing like starting over from scratch ($$$$$). I'll miss some of the others, but getting Endnote back will be a priority. I can work around most everything else.
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Quote
You must realize that a university cannot educate you. You must do that for yourself, although a college or university is the place where it is likely that you can study most efficiently.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/chapman.htm

"Is all the same, only different" -- HL
usukprof
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.


« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 12:29:52 am »

I just find it slightly amusing (for lack of a better term) that, so far as I have been able to ascertain, our Comp classes teach APA. Virtually all of the classes I've taken suggest using MLA. In actuality, none of my professor's have much cared one way or another as long as we cite and are consistent. I've never had any formal training in any, and I grew up reading books that used Chicago (or one of those variations), so that's most familiar to me.

I've gotten paid to edit PhD dissertation citations in both APA and MLA (I do know how to read manuals)--but, never in Chicago, and my Chemistry professor last semester suggested that I begin using ACS (although that's never even been mentioned to anyone else--my classmates read my lab reports and wonder WTH all the superscripts are about; I like it because I hate reading parenthetical citations, particularly repetitive ones, and it's kind of like Chicago w/o the footnotes).

Citing in any of the above isn't difficult, but the differences can be tricky and remembering which calls for what is a pain. I finally invested in Endnote, which, once I learned to do my final submission in PDF, has worked well. Not sure how well it will work going forward. Now that my laptop seems to have been stolen I have neither a machine with a license, nor do I know how to access my license from a machine I don't own. Once I finally manage to buy a new laptop ($$ I don't currently have) I'll probably have to buy it again ($$); but, I'll probably also have to buy new Office licenses, too ($$), along with my licenses for all the other licenses for software that I've used for years. Nothing like starting over from scratch ($$$$$). I'll miss some of the others, but getting Endnote back will be a priority. I can work around most everything else.

That's awful, MTG.  I'm guessing you did downloads of Office and don't have the media in a box?  I'd certainly try calling MS first and telling them your machine was stolen.  The ought to have enough information from the registration process to reissue.  Or did it come bundled on your old laptop?
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frogfactory
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 12:44:23 am »

If you downloaded MS Office, they'll let you put it on a further three (I think) machines.  I have been through far too many laptops in the last few years...

Endnote, I don't know.
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At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to masturbate in the bathroom.
mystictechgal
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One step at a time


« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 4:29:54 am »

Eh, I'll likely be able to figure out ways to deal with it all when the time comes--which will come when I can replace the laptop. Until then I'm just glad that I preserved all of my hard-copy lab reports. I can use the citations I made in them as a sort of style guide if I have to. I managed to cite the text books, lab handouts, in-class lectures, journal articles, and random web pages (for MSDS or particulars on what whatever it was we were synthesizing was good for--I.e., why anyone would bother), etc., along the way. I doubt I'll have a need to use very many other source types, so it should do until I have access to my library again.

Point being, there's generally always a way to get it done, one way or another, and even in the absence of specific training.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 4:34:14 am by mystictechgal » Logged

Quote
You must realize that a university cannot educate you. You must do that for yourself, although a college or university is the place where it is likely that you can study most efficiently.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/chapman.htm

"Is all the same, only different" -- HL
kaysixteen
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« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2012, 10:00:38 am »

No, madam, I have those skills.  I am troubled by your lack of ability to read my arguments, or is it by design?  I did not say that I did not properly format citations and references in my academic papers, let alone my dissertation, neither did I say that classicists do not care about such things.  What I did say, and I stand by, is that classics as a discipline does not care which format style guide an author chooses to use, merely that he does use one and does so properly and consistently.  I recall being told essentially exactly that by my undergrad advisor, and every classics professor I have ever had, at all three schools I studied at, employ the same philosophy, which of course I hold to myself as a teacher as well.  I do indeed consider it a niggling detail to worry about mindless insistence on any given format guide, and significantly downgrade a student who properly uses another one.  I have told my students here, for instance, how 'fortunate' they are that they do not have to deal with the same paper grading standards I had to endure in hs thirty years ago, namely one point off automatically for every spelling or grammatical error, period, irrespective of how good the paper actually is.  Ah well.  Some disagree.
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torshi
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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2012, 12:58:31 pm »

I do indeed consider it a niggling detail to worry about mindless insistence on any given format guide, and significantly downgrade a student who properly uses another one. 

What if it is a mindful insistence?  Does such a thing exist?

Of course the basic principles of citation matter most.  Writers must acknowledge their sources.  The norm upholds core principles of academia:  creating knowledge, acknowledging its creators, sharing knowledge.

But it is also a good idea for students to understand that every social setting in which they live and work includes conventions, and those conventions usually mean something of value to the people in the setting.  For example, including complete source information saves time and lowers irritation for the reader.  It is considerate.   It shows that the writer can be trusted.  Even if the student does not understand why people want them to do something a specific way, it is important for them to understand that there is often an expected way for things to be done--and "expected" means expected of everyone, not everyone except them. 

I ask that students use the citation style used in my discipline, and I explain the significance of its parts.  I don't insist on that style.  But they do get a deduction if they use MLA instead of APA, Chicago Author-Date, or some other science and social-science style that includes the year.  The year matters.  I teach sociology.  Social facts change.  Using recent sources shows that the writer is aware of the fact that, for example, cohabitation prior to marriage no longer predicts divorce risk, or that crime rates have dropped sharply since the 1990s.  Including the year in the in-text citations, and after the author(s) in the references, shows that the writer gets the idea.

I read an intriguing paper a couple of years ago about the impact of divorce on juvenile delinquency.  The student frequently cited a U.S. Senate hearing--the 1954 hearing about the comic-book panic!  Now, this student was not paying attention.  But including the year in the in-text citations may have helped her realize that sooner.  Anyway, that is the story that gets my students' attention.  About 10% never get to the point of understanding the need to alphabetize sources, or that removing the quotation marks from quoted material is not paraphrasing, or that People is not a scholarly research source. 

Few of my students are in the major, so they have to adapt from course to course to what the people in that field think is important.  They are often bewildered when introduced to a non-MLA style.  That's what they learned in freshman comp, and what they learn first seems to become engraved in their minds as The Right Way instead of One Right Way.  Good students--not slackers--have asked me if I want the paper written in MLA style "with proper grammar and punctuation."  Many don't really know what citation style is or does.  But they can understand it when it's explained.
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janewales
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2012, 1:01:07 pm »

No, madam, I have those skills.  I am troubled by your lack of ability to read my arguments, or is it by design?  I did not say that I did not properly format citations and references in my academic papers, let alone my dissertation, neither did I say that classicists do not care about such things.  What I did say, and I stand by, is that classics as a discipline does not care which format style guide an author chooses to use, merely that he does use one and does so properly and consistently. 

Kay, as I noted upthread, what's true in the classroom in our disciplines isn't true in the publishing realm. One of my areas is medieval Latin, and so I have published in journals that classicists might use. I promise you that they are very picky about their house styles. I couldn't, in that professional context, use whatever style I liked. I understand that we're not producing publishing classicists or medievalists in our classes, but I assume that the classroom assignments being described here have as one of their goals to teach that there are times when one has to follow instructions.

And a footnote: "madam" isn't really any better than "dear lady."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 1:02:09 pm by janewales » Logged
kaysixteen
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2012, 4:58:52 pm »

1) I have been consistent in my arguments here.  Your inability to read my arguments does not change that.

2) I get that conventions matter, and graduate students studying in a given discipline should surely be held accountable to the conventions of scholarship therein, if one such dominant standard format reigns there (which, of course, it does not in Classics).  So, take off 5 points if you must, for the kid's using the wrong format, but 30?  That serves no useful purpose, except perhaps to allow professor bigshot to maintain his ego.  Undergrads, esp. lower-level ones, taking a wide variety of classes across disciplines cannot realistically be expected to thoroughly master all the varied style formats available.  Indeed, it used to be pretty common for slacs, for instance, to decide on a campus style guide, whichever it was, and insist that papers written there all follow it, irrespective of discipline.  Many hss do this.

3) Sure, journals have standards, but if I write a paper for submission, using whatever format I regularly write in, but, on reading the journal's submission guides, discover that it requires a different format, I can easily, as a trained PhD, convert the article to the format required.
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professor_pat
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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2012, 8:11:36 pm »

I agree that there's not much "moral" value in insisting that students use one particular citation style, other than teaching them to follow directions for the reasons given by many thoughtful posters above, or if their anticipated profession uses that style primarily.

However, there is a significant practical value for me in insisting they use one particular style, which is why I require them to do that in my assignments: I can much more easily assess whether they've done it correctly. If I left it up to them whether to use MLA or APA or Chicago or any other style "as long as they're consistent," my eyeballs would be crossed after about 3 papers, trying to remember or cross-check what each style requires.
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baleful_regards
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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2012, 8:36:16 pm »

I took 30 points off. The student is a major in my discipline. I do not teach gen ed classes. All my students are majors in my discipline.

Professor bigshot or not, the parameters were clear: on the syllabus, in class discussions, through web sites offered.

Failure to follow directions aside, the student failed to cite her paper in a style which is required by her discipline.

Folks like to b*tch all the time that education majors are lax and lazy. This then translates to rampant disrespect by the public towards my profession.

I hold the line for my students. You can object all you like about my mean nitpicking but I don't view it as such. 


Geesh, you should have seen how I destroyed their "letters to families" assignment. However, I return to my previous point. I am training professionals who, at age 22, are most likely going to be in charge of the education received by other peoples children. I am hard on them so they can survive and shine.
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dr_know
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 12:32:52 am »

1) I have been consistent in my arguments here.  Your inability to read my arguments does not change that.

2) I get that conventions matter, and graduate students studying in a given discipline should surely be held accountable to the conventions of scholarship therein, if one such dominant standard format reigns there (which, of course, it does not in Classics).  So, take off 5 points if you must, for the kid's using the wrong format, but 30?  That serves no useful purpose, except perhaps to allow professor bigshot to maintain his ego.  Undergrads, esp. lower-level ones, taking a wide variety of classes across disciplines cannot realistically be expected to thoroughly master all the varied style formats available.  Indeed, it used to be pretty common for slacs, for instance, to decide on a campus style guide, whichever it was, and insist that papers written there all follow it, irrespective of discipline.  Many hss do this.

3) Sure, journals have standards, but if I write a paper for submission, using whatever format I regularly write in, but, on reading the journal's submission guides, discover that it requires a different format, I can easily, as a trained PhD, convert the article to the format required.

I don't ask my students to master the style.  I ask them to master opening a book, turning to the appropriate page, and copying a style.  How hard is that?
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mountainguy
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 5:54:50 pm »

I am training professionals who, at age 22, are most likely going to be in charge of the education received by other peoples children. I am hard on them so they can survive and shine.

Thank you, Baleful.

Regarding citation format: I tell my students to use MLA citation style. If a student really wants to use APA or Chicago style and can do it well, more power to 'em. But I have yet to see a freshperson pull this off; usually when they deviate, they end up doing a mix-and-choose hybrid of MLA + APA that looks dreadful.
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proftowanda
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"Righter of wrongs, queen beyond compare."


« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 6:33:05 pm »

1) I have been consistent in my arguments here.  Your inability to read my arguments does not change that.

2) I get that conventions matter, and graduate students studying in a given discipline should surely be held accountable to the conventions of scholarship therein, if one such dominant standard format reigns there (which, of course, it does not in Classics).  So, take off 5 points if you must, for the kid's using the wrong format, but 30?  That serves no useful purpose, except perhaps to allow professor bigshot to maintain his ego.  Undergrads, esp. lower-level ones, taking a wide variety of classes across disciplines cannot realistically be expected to thoroughly master all the varied style formats available.  Indeed, it used to be pretty common for slacs, for instance, to decide on a campus style guide, whichever it was, and insist that papers written there all follow it, irrespective of discipline.  Many hss do this.

3) Sure, journals have standards, but if I write a paper for submission, using whatever format I regularly write in, but, on reading the journal's submission guides, discover that it requires a different format, I can easily, as a trained PhD, convert the article to the format required.

1.  Whatever.  Not worth going back to check on that.

2.  Following instructions and attention to details are useful and quite transferable skills, as has been pointed out to you here, again and again.  May you end your days in an ICU with your life in the hands of a nursing staff that got hired for great GPAs, because they didn't get dinged as students for not following instructions and paying attention to pesky little details, like correct dosages. . . .

3.  It doesn't take a Ph.D., trained or housebroken or whatever that means, to follow instructions and pay attention to details. 

Ah, the stories I could tell, from my business career (of decades, prior to switching careers) and from others in medicine, law, and more, of student interns and other new hires who did not follow instructions -- at the cost of hours of their supervisors' time, but better that than at the cost of losing clients worth millions of dollars . . . or losing lives.  But you wouldn't bother to read the stories, because you're ignoring others above, so I won't bother you with more . . but to say that those student interns and new hires became former interns and jobless, but fast.

So, for the sake of your students' futures -- and ours -- please stop teaching, if you do not teach them to follow instructions and pay attention to detail.
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fishprof
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« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 7:52:00 pm »

I am amused by Kay's insistance that it doesn't matter what style they use as long as they use one correctly....

Tell us, Dear Kay, how the students would learn to use ANY citation style properly if no one held them to the standard of a particular style??

And don't say they can figure it out from the style guide....If they can do that for MLA, they can damn well do it for Chicago.

You are just looking for another 'evil college faculty straw-man' to tear down...
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I know I "can't care more than they do", but my presence here alone renders that impossible.
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