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Author Topic: Gouging Me Eyes Out!  (Read 6365 times)
mountainguy
The no longer carbonated
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« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2012, 5:54:50 PM »

I am training professionals who, at age 22, are most likely going to be in charge of the education received by other peoples children. I am hard on them so they can survive and shine.

Thank you, Baleful.

Regarding citation format: I tell my students to use MLA citation style. If a student really wants to use APA or Chicago style and can do it well, more power to 'em. But I have yet to see a freshperson pull this off; usually when they deviate, they end up doing a mix-and-choose hybrid of MLA + APA that looks dreadful.
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proftowanda
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"Righter of wrongs, queen beyond compare."


« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2012, 6:33:05 PM »

1) I have been consistent in my arguments here.  Your inability to read my arguments does not change that.

2) I get that conventions matter, and graduate students studying in a given discipline should surely be held accountable to the conventions of scholarship therein, if one such dominant standard format reigns there (which, of course, it does not in Classics).  So, take off 5 points if you must, for the kid's using the wrong format, but 30?  That serves no useful purpose, except perhaps to allow professor bigshot to maintain his ego.  Undergrads, esp. lower-level ones, taking a wide variety of classes across disciplines cannot realistically be expected to thoroughly master all the varied style formats available.  Indeed, it used to be pretty common for slacs, for instance, to decide on a campus style guide, whichever it was, and insist that papers written there all follow it, irrespective of discipline.  Many hss do this.

3) Sure, journals have standards, but if I write a paper for submission, using whatever format I regularly write in, but, on reading the journal's submission guides, discover that it requires a different format, I can easily, as a trained PhD, convert the article to the format required.

1.  Whatever.  Not worth going back to check on that.

2.  Following instructions and attention to details are useful and quite transferable skills, as has been pointed out to you here, again and again.  May you end your days in an ICU with your life in the hands of a nursing staff that got hired for great GPAs, because they didn't get dinged as students for not following instructions and paying attention to pesky little details, like correct dosages. . . .

3.  It doesn't take a Ph.D., trained or housebroken or whatever that means, to follow instructions and pay attention to details. 

Ah, the stories I could tell, from my business career (of decades, prior to switching careers) and from others in medicine, law, and more, of student interns and other new hires who did not follow instructions -- at the cost of hours of their supervisors' time, but better that than at the cost of losing clients worth millions of dollars . . . or losing lives.  But you wouldn't bother to read the stories, because you're ignoring others above, so I won't bother you with more . . but to say that those student interns and new hires became former interns and jobless, but fast.

So, for the sake of your students' futures -- and ours -- please stop teaching, if you do not teach them to follow instructions and pay attention to detail.
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"Face it, girls.  I'm older, and I have more insurance."     -- Towanda!
fishprof
After the spawning run is over...then what?
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« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2012, 7:52:00 PM »

I am amused by Kay's insistance that it doesn't matter what style they use as long as they use one correctly....

Tell us, Dear Kay, how the students would learn to use ANY citation style properly if no one held them to the standard of a particular style??

And don't say they can figure it out from the style guide....If they can do that for MLA, they can damn well do it for Chicago.

You are just looking for another 'evil college faculty straw-man' to tear down...
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Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. - Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
yellowtractor
Vice-Provost of the University of the South-East Corner of Donkeyshire (formerly Donkeyshire Polytechnic) (a Post-1992 University) and also a
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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2012, 7:53:01 PM »

Citation paradigms are just another belief system, like Buddhism or chemistry.
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It is, of course, possible that what I remember as terror was only a love too great to bear.
dr_know
Chocolate-loving, red pen-toting
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Posts: 4,728


« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 7:54:54 PM »

I am amused by Kay's insistance that it doesn't matter what style they use as long as they use one correctly....

Tell us, Dear Kay, how the students would learn to use ANY citation style properly if no one held them to the standard of a particular style??

And don't say they can figure it out from the style guide....If they can do that for MLA, they can damn well do it for Chicago.

You are just looking for another dear 'evil college faculty straw-ladyman' to tear down...

Fixed that for ya.
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It's a real shame I'm too young and too poor to retire...
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usukprof
Not sure he's been around long enough to really be a
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Posts: 10,606

.


« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 7:56:36 PM »

I am amused by Kay's insistance that it doesn't matter what style they use as long as they use one correctly....

Tell us, Dear Kay, how the students would learn to use ANY citation style properly if no one held them to the standard of a particular style??

And don't say they can figure it out from the style guide....If they can do that for MLA, they can damn well do it for Chicago.

You are just looking for another dear 'evil college faculty straw-dear-ladyman' to tear down...

Fixed that for ya.

Fixered that for ya.
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Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.  --Dean Vernon Wormer
cc_alan
is a wossname
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Caution! Nekkid Zamboni driver ahead.


« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2012, 12:55:11 AM »

Citation paradigms are just another belief system, like Buddhism or chemistry.

I believe in acid-base reactions!

I believe in oxidation!

I believe in gas laws!

I believe I need another beer! And beer happens because of chemistry. Damn good belief system, if you ask me.

Alan
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Guess what? I got a fever and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!
usukprof
Not sure he's been around long enough to really be a
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Posts: 10,606

.


« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2012, 12:58:10 AM »

Citation paradigms are just another belief system, like Buddhism or chemistry.

I believe in acid-base reactions!

I believe in oxidation!

I believe in gas laws!

I believe I need another beer! And beer happens because of chemistry. Damn good belief system, if you ask me.

Alan

What about Zambonis?
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Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.  --Dean Vernon Wormer
baleful_regards
Imperfect Uncertainty: Guardian of indecision is a
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My magical seagull regards you balefully /\0/\


WWW
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2012, 1:01:01 AM »

Citation paradigms are just another belief system, like Buddhism or chemistry.

I believe in acid-base reactions!

I believe in oxidation!

I believe in gas laws!

I believe I need another beer! And beer happens because of chemistry. Damn good belief system, if you ask me.

Alan

I believe the children are our future.....

Oh, never mind.

Here's your beer, alan.
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Trouble comes to everyone who dares to be a muse.
thepagestaysblank
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Posts: 29


« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2012, 1:24:57 AM »

Undergrads, esp. lower-level ones, taking a wide variety of classes across disciplines cannot realistically be expected to thoroughly master all the varied style formats available.  

Really? You're know your taking the slacker's side on this right?

No one is asking for them to master anything, just follow directions. Look, I can see your point, if you assign a paper and the student gives you correct citations in MLA instead of APA it probably doesn't warrant taking all 30 points, especially if we're talking about intro classes that are not part of this student's major. But that's not really what we're focusing on here. Balefulregardss noted that this wasn't a general intro class outside this student's major. Plus, at my school each major requires that you learn the most commonly used citation styles for your field.

Through all of my undergrad years I never had any issues being bogged down by citation requirements (heck, they were the freebie points). Pretty much all of the freshman classes allowed or required MLA citations and when I got into my major I switched over to Chicago style. So all I had to do was learn two different citation styles -- hardly an overbearing challenge for today's students.

And an additional note: learning how to write citations also teaches you how to read them when you do research, something that pretty much all students should learn. If they only cite in MLA then they're not really learning how to fully use the citations that are commonly used in their discipline. It amazes me how many students do research without ever looking at the bibliographies of their sources.  
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"I am an accountant. I have no feelings." -octoprof
"I'm an engineer. I don't believe in feelings; I believe in evidence." -polly_mer
"I'm a humanist; I believe in relativism and in argument."-marigolds
"I'm an historian. I only care about what really happened in the past." -funkypeanut
kaysixteen
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Posts: 7,749


« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2012, 9:37:16 AM »

This is another one of those cases where small-minded doctrinaire discipline hardcases make stupid policies and them find fascinating ways to justify hardass insistence on full compliance therewith.  In no particular order of importance, I am constrained to point out that:

1) schoolteachers do not need to be proficient in any given style format, in order to teach format requirement policies to teenagers and then insist that appropriate citations be made.  I do this all the time, and can use whatever format a school wants me to use, even if it is one I never used myself.

2) making a 30 points off reduction for failing to use format x may make an educationist think 'education' is a rigorous academic discipline requiring rigorous academic standards, but, ahem, well...

3) it really is not that hard for a professor to check out a kid's references, even if the style he is using is diifferent from said academic's preference, really, it ain't, neither is it difficult for an author to convert a paper to a journnal's requirements when necessary (even though the vast majority of undergrads and a significant quantity of grad students, at least those not in PhD programs, will likely never ever be submitting a paper to a journal.

4) obviously one can expect, theoretically, and undergrad taking a variety of courses across disciplines to look at various style guides for various formating reqs each discipline/ individual prof may choose to insist on using.  It is a waste of time, nonetheless, and the student and professor both could be doing more important, pedagogically useful things nonetheless.
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cc_alan
is a wossname
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Caution! Nekkid Zamboni driver ahead.


« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2012, 12:28:00 PM »

I do this all the time, and can use whatever format a school wants me to use, even if it is one I never used myself.

No comment needed.

Alan
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Guess what? I got a fever and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!
kaysixteen
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« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2012, 1:15:02 PM »

Few brains required, either.
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cc_alan
is a wossname
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Caution! Nekkid Zamboni driver ahead.


« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2012, 1:22:39 PM »

Few brains required, either.

Nah. I think you have enough brains to follow the discussion and do the proper format.

Alan
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Guess what? I got a fever and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!
kaysixteen
Distinguished Senior Member
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« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2012, 1:25:18 PM »

I can use any format you choose.  I could even dictate which format a kid had to use.  Unless, however, it was necessary for him to use such a format in order to be published, it is simply not necessary to care which one he does use, provided it is used consistently.  And it serves no pedagogical purpose to nuke his grade if he uses a different one.
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