• October 31, 2014
October 31, 2014, 4:04:44 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with your Chronicle username and password
News: Talk online about your experiences as an adjunct, visiting assistant professor, postdoc, or other contract faculty member.
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 15
  Print  
Author Topic: Recognizing that the student is the customer  (Read 106195 times)
desmata
still here but mostly "over there".
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 1,670


« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2012, 8:51:06 AM »

I think it should be International Micturation Polytechnic Institute of Georgia, or I.M.P.InG.

Love!
Logged

If scientists invented the legal system, eye witness testimony would be inadmissible evidence. --Neil deGrasse Tyson
conjugate
Compulsive punster and insatiable reader, and
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 18,777

Tends to have warped sense of humor


« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2012, 12:23:44 PM »

I may regret putting this bit of snark into yet another thread that will show up in my "Unread Replies" box until the end of time, but:

How about UofPhoeny?  It's a little long, yes, but in its own way has its charms.

Logged

Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|xa|<δ⇒|(x)-(a)|<ε
goddess_sophia
New member
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »

I may regret putting this bit of snark into yet another thread that will show up in my "Unread Replies" box until the end of time, but:

How about UofPhoeny?  It's a little long, yes, but in its own way has its charms.



Will you still reference it in that manner when it your only employment opportunity?
Logged
polly_mer
practice makes perfect
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 37,443

Have you worked on that project today?


« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2012, 11:03:14 AM »

I may regret putting this bit of snark into yet another thread that will show up in my "Unread Replies" box until the end of time, but:

How about UofPhoeny?  It's a little long, yes, but in its own way has its charms.



Will you still reference it in that manner when it your only employment opportunity?

If you have somehow made so many wrong turns in life that University of Phoenix is your ONLY employment opportunity, then the problem will not be the name since that means even McDonald's and Wal-mart have gone under and begging on the street is being punished by being shot on sight.

Stop being a nudnik and address the issues.
Logged

I've joined a bizarre cult called JordanCanonicalForm's Witnesses.  I have to go from door to door asking people things like, "Good evening, sir!  Do you have a moment to chat about Linear Transformations?"
theritas
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 2,693


« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2012, 11:28:11 AM »

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.
How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears? - Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.
If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

I'm so glad someone threw in the gym example, but I can't get the bank one out of my head.  My bank relationship has been so bad... I definitely don't feel like a customer in that case, and I'm kind of tied up to do anything about it at this point.  In time, I hope.
Logged
conjugate
Compulsive punster and insatiable reader, and
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 18,777

Tends to have warped sense of humor


« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2012, 12:50:35 PM »

I may regret putting this bit of snark into yet another thread that will show up in my "Unread Replies" box until the end of time, but:

How about UofPhoeny?  It's a little long, yes, but in its own way has its charms.



Will you still reference it in that manner when it your only employment opportunity?

First correction:  it's.

Second correction:  if it ever becomes my only employment opportunity.  And no, probably I wouldn't, but (as Polly_Mer points out above) the odds of this happening are very slender.

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.

How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears?

Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.

If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

Now, regarding the bank example, a "customer" of a bank is someone who uses its services (and pays money for the privilege).  So at least some account holders are customers of the bank (others are clients).  And yes, Bobby can write checks for any amount he chooses (though not without consequences).  Bobby also has some control over the service charges, either through a judicious selection of banks at which to deposit his money, or through care in not requiring the services for which charges are inflicted.  It appears that you seem to think this answers LarryC's objections, although I don't see how.  Banks and institutions of higher learning are distinct, and employ dramatically different business models.

One may regard students as the raw materials, not unlike the aluminum and steel acquired by an automobile manufacturer.  We attempt to construct the best possible product from the raw materials.

However, let us suppose hypothetically that the student is the customer.  Very well, then, what is our product or service?  We are in the business of certification; that is, we offer a service whereby we certify that a student has received what we believe is an adequate education.  Notice that it is not our job to create that education, to inflict it upon a student against his or her will, or to ensure that it is delivered.  To be sure, we also deliver a number of opportunities (lectures, labs, group work, homework, demonstrations) to make that education easier to achieve, but our primary goal is to give a grade determining the degree to which the student may be said to have learned the material of our disciplines.

If the student is the customer, that's what's being sold; our expertise in determining how well the student has learned the material.  It's not our job to open up their skulls and dump the knowledge in, it's our job to determine how much is in there afterwards.

I submit that we are already focused on the customer.  We spend a great deal of our time and energies on assessment activities, which measure whether and how well learning has taken place, and this is emphasized by our accrediting bodies.  Ask an accrediting body (SACS, North Central, etc.) what kinds of teaching methods they require or recommend; they will say they don't require or recommend any.  Ask them whether assessment is optional; they will go on at great length about how important assessment is, how it underlies everything we do, how a program without assessment is useless, and so forth.
Logged

Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|xa|<δ⇒|(x)-(a)|<ε
macadamia
Senior member
****
Posts: 421


« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2012, 2:20:15 PM »

conjugate, I think that you have nailed my biggest problem with the customer model:

*If* the student is the customer, then the grade is indeed the central aspect.

But I don't think it is. I think that the central mission of universities is to transmit knowledge to the next generation and generate it. Assessment and certification are important, but they are the means not the end.
Logged

A drunk man will find his way home, but a drunk bird may get lost forever.  Shizuo Kakutani
foresight
New member
*
Posts: 28


« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2012, 5:21:47 AM »

[quote author=conjugate link=topic=87870.msg2127385#


One may regard students as the raw materials, not unlike the aluminum and steel acquired by an automobile manufacturer.  We attempt to construct the best possible product from the raw materials.
 
  It's not our job to open up their skulls and dump the knowledge in, it's our job to determine how much is in there afterwards.
 
[/quote]

Anyone wanting to know what is wrong with higher education should review what is stated above.
Logged
aside
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 1,219


« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2012, 7:48:49 AM »

Quote from: conjugate link=topic=87870.msg2127385#
One may regard students as the raw materials, not unlike the aluminum and steel acquired by an automobile manufacturer.  We attempt to construct the best possible product from the raw materials.
 
  It's not our job to open up their skulls and dump the knowledge in, it's our job to determine how much is in there afterwards.
 

Anyone wanting to know what is wrong with higher education should review what is stated above.

Could you be a little more specific?
Logged
genius_at_large
Wylie E. Coyote, Genius at Large
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 1,853


« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2012, 9:05:56 PM »

I suggest we install cup holders in classrooms.
Logged

I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many guns.
burnie
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 1,217


« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2012, 9:32:30 PM »

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.

How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears?

Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.

If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

Well said, foresight. By your analogy the student is, without any doubt, to be considered a customer.

Larryc, any response?

HAHAHA - it looks like foresight created a buddy to help stick up for hu. 
Logged

Corporate America wants people who seem like bold risk takers, but never actually do anything.  - Barney Stinson
tinyzombie
She of the Badass Abs, and a
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 15,137

elevate from this point on - chuck d


« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2012, 9:36:10 PM »

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.

How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears?

Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.

If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

Well said, foresight. By your analogy the student is, without any doubt, to be considered a customer.

Larryc, any response?

HAHAHA - it looks like foresight created a buddy to help stick up for hu. 

That explains the attack on me on another thread. It is still mad that I brought up its moniker's resemblance to foreskin.
Logged

Quote from: usukprof
I think we have three of them, but the smallest one seems to be the leader.
Quote from: dolljepopp
Who needs real life when Sandra Bullock is around?
Quote from: systeme_d_
You are all my people, and I love you.
burnie
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 1,217


« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2012, 9:52:22 PM »

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.

How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears?

Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.

If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

Well said, foresight. By your analogy the student is, without any doubt, to be considered a customer.

Larryc, any response?

HAHAHA - it looks like foresight created a buddy to help stick up for hu. 

That explains the attack on me on another thread. It is still mad that I brought up its moniker's resemblance to foreskin.

Sorry for the double post...after clicking around a bit more I'm starting to think peircearrow, goddess_sophia, vincentm and maybe a few others belong to foresight (or are at least conspiring together).   Anyone else notice this?
Logged

Corporate America wants people who seem like bold risk takers, but never actually do anything.  - Barney Stinson
vincentm
New member
*
Posts: 6


« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2012, 12:00:39 AM »

Fine, Foresight, we will have the conversation.

How exactly is the student a customer? And if the student is the customer, don't they have the right to determine the course content, decide which facts are true, and to get an A at the end of the course, so long as their check clears?

Because if the answer to any of the above questions is no, the student is not a customer.

If Bobby has an an account at a bank, is Bobby a customer of the bank? Can Bobby write checks for any amount he chooses, or is he limited by the amount on deposit? Can Bobby determine the service charges on his account? Can Bobby determine if he is approved for a loan, or the amount of the loan?

Well said, foresight. By your analogy the student is, without any doubt, to be considered a customer.

Larryc, any response?

HAHAHA - it looks like foresight created a buddy to help stick up for hu. 

That explains the attack on me on another thread. It is still mad that I brought up its moniker's resemblance to foreskin.

Sorry for the double post...after clicking around a bit more I'm starting to think peircearrow, goddess_sophia, vincentm and maybe a few others belong to foresight (or are at least conspiring together).   Anyone else notice this?

Good point!! Anyone that says anything contrary to your belief MUST be in collusion just to aggravate you! Disregard the approximate 2.5 million with PhDs in this country that could possibly have an interest in higher education.
Logged
johnny_sunshine
New member
*
Posts: 34


« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2012, 7:25:49 AM »

Yes we are. And the professors that don't understand that are the worst.
Logged

"Neurobiology has been hugely advanced by deranged chemists and drug dealers. The motto of this class is 'Say yes to drugs.'"
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 15
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
  • 1255 Twenty-Third St., N.W.
  • Washington, D.C. 20037
subscribe today

Get the insight you need for success in academe.