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Author Topic: Suck it, Sarkozy  (Read 3374 times)
qrypt
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« on: May 06, 2012, 2:06:25 PM »

Okay, perhaps slightly premature -- but I'm getting ready to go buy a nice bottle of Châteauneuf-du-Pape to celebrate the election.  It helps that there are also UK election results to celebrate, though unfortunately Boris didn't get terminated.  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 2:08:08 PM by qrypt » Logged

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luder
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 3:09:08 PM »

Well, enjoy the breuvage, but except for the presumed withdrawal from public life of a guy who came off as a bit of jerk, it seems to me that the election of Hollande is grounds for skepticism rather than celebration.

I guess I just don't understand why Sarkozy inspired such hatred in so many people. Sure, his personality and his carriage are slightly repulsive, or so they seem, but none of the policies he and his party put in place, whether you agree with them or not, is especially egregious.

Hollande and the Socialists, on the other hand, are promising to undo one of Sarkozy's few reforms and lower the retirement age from 62 to 60. This is folly.
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parispundit
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 3:23:13 PM »

I am no Hollande fan, but Sarko's egregious pandering to the National Front voters in the last week of the campaign, saying that FRance's number 1 problem was IMMIGRATION, and that foreigners should not get the vote in local elections because that would give too many muslims the vote, disgusted me with him.

And for that matter, the election of Hollande marks the end of the French Socialist party as we know it. Either he sticks to the past, and is a total catastrophe, or he finally cuts the party's marxist ties and makes it a party of the center-left.
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luder
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 4:12:57 PM »

Sarkozy may well have said those things, but I tuned out the last week of the campaign. As an immigrant to France (and from a former French colony), I can't vote, anyway. But, as I'm sure you know, Sarko's party and the supporters of the National Front don't come close to cornering the French market for xenophobia and racism. It was a prominent Socialist politician, after all, who said the Harkis were sous-hommes and noted that Laurent Fabius had "une tronche pas catholique." And, in the recent past, when French Socialists have talked about Israel and the Palestinians they have often seemed to be doing little other than Jew-baiting.
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merce
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 5:06:56 PM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?

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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 5:30:49 PM »

Hollande and the Socialists, on the other hand, are promising to undo one of Sarkozy's few reforms and lower the retirement age from 62 to 60. This is folly.

I don't know much about French politics... but isn't lowering the retirement age going to add to the economic problems?
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merce
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2012, 5:38:29 PM »

Hollande and the Socialists, on the other hand, are promising to undo one of Sarkozy's few reforms and lower the retirement age from 62 to 60. This is folly.

I don't know much about French politics... but isn't lowering the retirement age going to add to the economic problems?


I think the idea is to let new kids get into the job stream.  But I'll wait to see if someone really knows what that's about.

Is anyone wearing red flowers today?
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parispundit
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 2:31:35 AM »

Hollande and the Socialists, on the other hand, are promising to undo one of Sarkozy's few reforms and lower the retirement age from 62 to 60. This is folly.

I don't know much about French politics... but isn't lowering the retirement age going to add to the economic problems?

It is the dumbest idea of the year. Now, if it turns out to be a way of selling an INCREASE in the retirement age, I'll buy it - as in 10% with really physically challenging job can retire at 60, another 10% can retire at 62, and the rest at 67, great. But France can't afford the present system, and certainly not more taxes to pay for it, in a country where taxes already amount to 47% of GDP (vs 25-30% in the US)
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luder
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 8:15:16 AM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?


I don't know who Alain Bourdeui is, Merce, and though I googled him I didn't find anything. Is there a typo in that name?

On the lowering of the retirement age: you could respect people who argue that there's a set amount of work, access to which is most fairly granted by creating rules (such as mandatory retirement ages) governing entry to and exit from the labor markets; you could perhaps even be swayed by such arguments. But as far as I can tell the Socialists weren't even pretending to make these arguments. It's entirely possible I missed something, but it seems to me they were promising to lower the retirement age not out of concern for getting young people into the workforce but simply out of resentment at Sarkozy's having gotten his way in what was a fairly bitter fight over pension reform a couple of years ago. So there! they can say now.

To be fair, Hollande now seems to be saying that the lowered retirement age will be only for people who have spent at least forty years doing physical labor (I don't think even the Right will begrudge these workers' retiring at sixty). Maybe it was all just a sop thrown to the civil servants, who were angry at the prospect of having to work two more years and who tend to account for so much of the support for the Socialist Party. We'll see.
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spork
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 8:41:44 AM »

I don't care who is president of La France as long as I can keep hearing Eleanor Beardsley report for NPR.
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tinyzombie
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 9:29:12 AM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?


I don't know who Alain Bourdeui is, Merce, and though I googled him I didn't find anything. Is there a typo in that name?


I can't find it either, but the surname is spelled Bourdieu.
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 9:54:53 AM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?


I don't know who Alain Bourdeui is, Merce, and though I googled him I didn't find anything. Is there a typo in that name?


I can't find it either, but the surname is spelled Bourdieu.

There's a short piece from a few years ago by Bourdieu called "Racisme de l'intelligence," apparently first published in 1983 under the title "Classe contre classe," floating around online. I'm not sure if that's what Merce was thinking of. Here's the last bit of it (don't want to post too much since it's in French):

Ce racisme est propre à une classe dominante dont la reproduction dépend, pour une part, de la transmission du capital culturel, capital hérité qui a pour propriété d’être un capital incorporé, donc apparemment naturel, inné. Le racisme de l’intelligence est ce par quoi les dominants visent à produire une « théodicée de leur propre privilège », comme dit Weber, c’est-à-dire une justification de l’ordre social qu’ils dominent. Il est ce qui fait que les dominants se sentent d’une essence supérieure. Tout racisme est un essentialisme et le racisme de l’intelligence est la forme de sociodicée caractéristique d’une classe dominante dont le pouvoir repose en partie sur la possession de titres qui, comme les titres scolaires, sont censés être des garanties d’intelligence et qui ont pris la place, dans beaucoup de sociétés, et pour l’accès même aux positions de pouvoir économique, des titres anciens comme les titres de propriété et les titres de noblesse.
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tinyzombie
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elevate from this point on - chuck d


« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 9:57:03 AM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?


I don't know who Alain Bourdeui is, Merce, and though I googled him I didn't find anything. Is there a typo in that name?


I can't find it either, but the surname is spelled Bourdieu.

There's a short piece from a few years ago by Bourdieu called "Racisme de l'intelligence," apparently first published in 1983 under the title "Classe contre classe," floating around online. I'm not sure if that's what Merce was thinking of. Here's the last bit of it (don't want to post too much since it's in French):

Ce racisme est propre à une classe dominante dont la reproduction dépend, pour une part, de la transmission du capital culturel, capital hérité qui a pour propriété d’être un capital incorporé, donc apparemment naturel, inné. Le racisme de l’intelligence est ce par quoi les dominants visent à produire une « théodicée de leur propre privilège », comme dit Weber, c’est-à-dire une justification de l’ordre social qu’ils dominent. Il est ce qui fait que les dominants se sentent d’une essence supérieure. Tout racisme est un essentialisme et le racisme de l’intelligence est la forme de sociodicée caractéristique d’une classe dominante dont le pouvoir repose en partie sur la possession de titres qui, comme les titres scolaires, sont censés être des garanties d’intelligence et qui ont pris la place, dans beaucoup de sociétés, et pour l’accès même aux positions de pouvoir économique, des titres anciens comme les titres de propriété et les titres de noblesse.

That's sociologue Pierre Bourdieu (d. 2002), in case people are interested. I've never heard of an Alain Bourdieu.

TZ, glad Sarko is gone
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corny
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 10:12:09 AM »

Ah, Luder, I see you read Alain Bourdeui's article on Intellectual Racism yesterday.  If not you may like it.

I do think the racism in France has metamorphosized in the last years.  My first time in France racism was very blatant. Today there is an awareness that racism as a concept can exist and is considered a bad thing and one might do well to think before speaking.
I think Sarkozy represented a nostalgia for a time when it was ok to say and act in ways that today would not be considered acceptable. His own confusing heritage made it all the more "safe" to be racist in his footsteps since he himself was once considered métèque as Carla Bruni apparently said.


I think there are other issues that upset the French just as much. Different folks will have different worries of course. This chart is really elaborate and quite helpful.  You can imagine who would be interested in which candidate's proposal for any of the subjects touched on.

Sarkozy seems to answer the issues in ways that would lead France to be more like the US. 
Didn't he say no more cheese in the palais d'elysee?
what a weirdo.
Or was that urban legend?


I don't know who Alain Bourdeui is, Merce, and though I googled him I didn't find anything. Is there a typo in that name?


I can't find it either, but the surname is spelled Bourdieu.

There's a short piece from a few years ago by Bourdieu called "Racisme de l'intelligence," apparently first published in 1983 under the title "Classe contre classe," floating around online. I'm not sure if that's what Merce was thinking of. Here's the last bit of it (don't want to post too much since it's in French):

Ce racisme est propre à une classe dominante dont la reproduction dépend, pour une part, de la transmission du capital culturel, capital hérité qui a pour propriété d’être un capital incorporé, donc apparemment naturel, inné. Le racisme de l’intelligence est ce par quoi les dominants visent à produire une « théodicée de leur propre privilège », comme dit Weber, c’est-à-dire une justification de l’ordre social qu’ils dominent. Il est ce qui fait que les dominants se sentent d’une essence supérieure. Tout racisme est un essentialisme et le racisme de l’intelligence est la forme de sociodicée caractéristique d’une classe dominante dont le pouvoir repose en partie sur la possession de titres qui, comme les titres scolaires, sont censés être des garanties d’intelligence et qui ont pris la place, dans beaucoup de sociétés, et pour l’accès même aux positions de pouvoir économique, des titres anciens comme les titres de propriété et les titres de noblesse.

That's sociologue Pierre Bourdieu (d. 2002), in case people are interested. I've never heard of an Alain Bourdieu.

TZ, glad Sarko is gone

Oh, man, I skipped right over the "Alain" somehow, but now I think I've figured it out - Merce was talking about Alain Badiou, who did indeed publish something on the racism of intellectuals this weekend. Here's the le monde article:
http://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2012/article/2012/05/05/le-racisme-des-intellectuels-par-alain-badiou_1696292_1471069.html

And a translation:
http://guavapuree.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/badiou-the-racism-of-intellectuals-translation/

Ha. Now what I find most amusing about all this is that Bourdieu and Badiou have both published stuff on intellectual racism. I love the French.

Re the election: I, personally, will just be sad to see Carla Bruni Sarkozy fade from the spotlight.
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 10:48:08 AM »

I adore this phrase for Pierre B:

"« théodicée de leur propre privilège »"

I want to work it into conversation at the soonest possible instant.  (I used Bourdieu a lot in my dissertation years ago and talked a good deal about "God-given privilege," so I'm just so very happy.)
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