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ptarmigan
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« on: February 19, 2012, 05:27:14 PM » |
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I'm currently working on a PhD in math, but I recall that when I started this, someone here told me it would be a great idea to get 18 credit hours in math ed as well, so that I could teach courses in both subjects. (I do also find math ed very interesting.)
My school doesn't offer any graduate courses in math ed, but there is another school in town which does. Is it plausible that I could take 18 credit hours over there and have it somehow "count" towards being able to teach math ed, or would I need to get a degree over there in order for the courses to matter to future employers, accreditors, etc?
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to transfer the courses in for credit over here, but I might be willing to just tack them on to my current program if this is a good, feasible idea with no huge drawbacks. (Of course this assumes the other school would let me take the classes, which I'm also not sure about. I think their program is not very selective, if that helps.)
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lohai0
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 05:32:54 PM » |
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check your PM's
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This semester's going to call for an increase in my liquor budget.
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mathy
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 08:22:21 PM » |
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If you really want a job as a mathematician in a math department then the 18 credits will be a waste of time. That is a lot of courses to take on top of a full load and will slow down your progress on your dissertation and your math coursework. Most math departments may offer 1 or 2 courses of Math for Elementary (or Secondary) Teachers and having experience teaching these courses or an interest in this direction may help you get a job, but, at least on the search committees I have been on, the 18 credit hours in math ed won't help. In fact, enough mathematicians have a bias against math ed that they may see the courses as a negative.
On the other hand, if your interest in math ed is serious enough that you would consider taking a job in an education department or becoming the "math ed" person in a math department (including conducting research in that area) then it might help. The job market in math ed really is much better than in math (especially than in pure math) so this may be a reasonable thing to do. I don't know enough about the math ed market to say if the credit hours would be helpful in that type of search. I suggest you talk to someone in math ed (perhaps making an appointment with a professor whose class you are considering) and asking their advice.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 10:39:38 PM » |
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On the other hand, if your interest in math ed is serious enough that you would consider taking a job in an education department or becoming the "math ed" person in a math department (including conducting research in that area) then it might help. The job market in math ed really is much better than in math (especially than in pure math) so this may be a reasonable thing to do. I don't know enough about the math ed market to say if the credit hours would be helpful in that type of search. I suggest you talk to someone in math ed (perhaps making an appointment with a professor whose class you are considering) and asking their advice.
Do not even consider looking for a math ed position in a College of Ed if you are not willing to accumulate at least three years of K-12 teaching experience. While it was certainly the case that there was a serious enough shortage of math educators a few years ago that the K-12 experience was not really necessary, that has changed. It very definitely is needed now, due to a combination of accreditation issues and changes to supply and demand. Above all else, before you start thinking of pursuing math ed coursework, read the job ads for awhile. |
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey
"Be particular." Jill Conner Browne
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ptarmigan
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 01:23:38 AM » |
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I'm definitely not looking to do math ed research at all. I'm trying to increase my marketability to teaching-oriented schools, so what I'm really asking is, would taking some math ed courses accomplish anything in that regard? It's sounding to me like the answer is 'not really.'
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msparticularity
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 01:38:48 AM » |
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I'm definitely not looking to do math ed research at all. I'm trying to increase my marketability to teaching-oriented schools, so what I'm really asking is, would taking some math ed courses accomplish anything in that regard? It's sounding to me like the answer is 'not really.'
I think the answer might be more like "Maybe, possibly, kind of." If you were applying to a place where the math ed courses happen in a math department rather than in the College of Ed (varies by state), and if they didn't already have a qualified person (or if that person wanted to quit teaching the math ed courses), and if the figured they could get away with having someone with no K-12 experience teaching the math ed courses (which also varies by state and accrediting agency), it might be an advantage for you to have taken some courses. The likelier scenario, I would think, might be if you worked toward experience and competence in teaching "under-prepared" students, and coupled some experience in working in a math support center with some appropriate math ed coursework (on a level of a course or two to give you a bit of insight). |
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey
"Be particular." Jill Conner Browne
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daniel_von_flanagan
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Works all day. Posts all night. Needs sleep.
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 05:02:39 AM » |
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If your school has no math ed department, then dollars to donuts someone in your department is involved in some kind of K-12 or math ed effort or program. Find out who that is - ask your chair or grad chair if fellow students don't know - and talk to them.
If your goal is a math department in a CC or a small college or a regional comprehensive, then some math ed credentials will absolutely help you land a job, regardless of whether your final department is training people specifically in math ed. - DvF
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The U.S. Education Department is establishing a new national research center to study colleges' ability to successfully educate the country's growing numbers of academically underprepared administrators.
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mathy
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 10:35:33 AM » |
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I'm definitely not looking to do math ed research at all. I'm trying to increase my marketability to teaching-oriented schools, so what I'm really asking is, would taking some math ed courses accomplish anything in that regard? It's sounding to me like the answer is 'not really.'
I took a course in math ed as a grad student for the same reasons you are thinking about it. In my case, it was a waste of time. The only thing I learned from the course is that it is possible to get a Ph.D. in math ed and not know what mathematicians actually do (none of the other students had even seen a proof beyond the 2-column style seen in a high school geometry course). It was a course in secondary and post-secondary math acquisition and we read papers about how fourth graders understand fractions. I'm assuming this was a particularly poor course and is not the norm but it was disheartening. I remember telling some profs in my department that I was taking it and the reaction was overwhelmingly negative. Of course, this may have been because they knew the quality of the math ed department at that school but I got more of a sense that it was a bias against math ed in general. I've had colleagues at other institutions who (unfortunately) shared this bias so anyone with an interest in math ed would have to overcome their negative attitudes with more hands-on teaching experience. More important than the course being poor, was that nobody asked me about it in any job interviews. I highlighted it in my coverletter for certain positions and none of the interviewers seemed to care. I was always asked about my experience with undergraduate research and working with a summer program for underrepresented minorities and first-generation college students. These kinds of experiences are much more meaningful for most math departments than coursework which is unlikely to have much bearing on your job. If the content of the math ed courses helps give you a perspective on the field then they may be helpful but there are things you can do that, in my opinion, would be much more helpful. I've been on search committees at 2 SLACs and I've worked at a regional state university. At all of these schools, experience teaching Math for Elementary School Teachers would be a definite plus whereas course work would be a neutral (or a negative if it detracted from other endeavors). A much more useful thing would be experience with undergraduate research, working with underrepresented minorities, or other unusual experiences working with students. If we had one candidate whose interest in teaching is shown through coursework and another who had a varied teaching portfolio and who supervised undergraduate research then the one with practical experience would win every time. Remember, the point of the 18 credit-hours is so that you can teach in that field. If you have a Ph.D. in math then you can already teach anything offered in a math department. A few courses in math ed can help bolster your credentials to teach more math ed-type courses but experience teaching those types of courses will be more of a help and, in my experience, will be more likely to help you land a job. Now that I look over what I have written, I think it is pretty much 4 long paragraphs to say that I agree with DvF's advice. Getting involved with the K-12 program in your department to get hands-on experience is the way to go. See if there are outreach programs you can help with or courses in that area that you can help teach. Also, the fact that you are thinking about these issues is really good. I've read hundreds (thousands?) of applications and most of them were so clueless about teaching or math curriculum beyond calculus that it was clear they had never thought about it. You are already miles ahead of most applicants. Good luck! |
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cgfunmathguy
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 12:36:31 PM » |
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I'm going to take some exception to Mathy's latest post. I'm assuming that Mathy didn't really understand what Math Educators do, and thus, Mathy didn't get what s/he expected out of the course (which wasn't necessarily what the course instructor's expectations were). The purpose of Math Ed courses is to teach you how students acquire mathematical knowledge and how to adjust teaching practices to that knowledge. It is not about "knowing math." If they were perspective elementary teachers, then they wouldn't have taken any courses that would have shown proofs since their high-school geometry courses.
It's not a waste of time if your purpose is among the following:
1. You want to be a better instructor at the college level by addressing learning issues in your approach to teaching.
2. You want to teach others about Mathematics Education.
3. You want to teach the "Math for Elementary Teachers" classes while engaging with them about why you are teaching topics in a certain way.
There may be others, but those would be the primary reasons to take Math Ed classes at this point.
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Alas, greatness and meaning are rarely coterminous with popular familiarity.
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conjugate
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 08:48:09 PM » |
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Let me give you my point of view (as the guy who I think gave you that advice about the 18 grad hours). I've worked at a teaching-oriented school that greatly valued the one person (no PhD) with 18 grad hours in Math Ed. That's because the accrediting body wants somebody with the credentials to teach Geometry For Teachers. The school has lots of students who wanted to take this class, so they have a need.
So, a search committee looks over the applications (as happened in my current job) and observes that some of the applicants, hurray, have the magic 18 hours. This gives them a leg up over other applicants. Much the same holds true, in my experience, with 18 grad hours in statistics or computer science.
For context, I am, and have been, teaching at small liberal arts teaching schools. I understand that situations are different everywhere, and what constitutes good advice for some jobs won't be good advice for other jobs.
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Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|x–a|<δ⇒|ƒ(x)-ƒ(a)|<ε |
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mathy
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 09:24:06 PM » |
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I didn't mean to offend anyone with my experience in a single math ed course and I certainly did not mean to imply that math ed courses in general are a waste of time. I understand that people interested in elementary math education may not have taken a math course since high school but I was (and still am) surprised that not a single student taking a course in post-secondary math acquisition knew what post-secondary math is. I thought at least one of them would have at least minored in mathematics. That isn't what made the course a waste of my time but it made it very difficult for us to discuss math acquisition at the university level which is probably why the majority of the readings for the course involved math acquisition in grades K-4.
In any case, arguing about the course goals of one class taken years ago is not useful to anyone. I stand by my advice that taking 18 credit hours in math ed is unlikely to help you get a job in a math department unless you are looking to fill the role of the math ed person. Taking one or two classes may be helpful and getting hands-on experience will definitely be helpful.
I suggest the OP look into attending the Legacy of R.L. Moore conference or taking one of the MAA Prep courses. Even if you have little interest in the Moore Method, it is interesting to spend a few days talking with people who are passionate about how college students learn math and the few times I've been I've gotten ideas that I implemented in both my Inquiry Based Learning courses and in my more traditional ones.
Upon preview, I see why conjugate mentioned the 18 hours. That has never been an issue at schools where I've taught (n=4). We've just had regular math faculty with no extra schooling in math ed teach both Geometry for Teachers and Math for Elementary Teachers. So, different schools have different requirements. If you have the time and interest then, sure, take the 18 credit hours. But if you're only doing it to make yourself more marketable then I think there are better ways to spend that time. Plus, following that path means you are setting yourself up to be the person who teaches a lot of those courses. That's great if it is where your interests lie but think about whether that is a role you're really interested in filling before you market yourself that way.
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cgfunmathguy
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 02:06:17 PM » |
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I didn't mean to offend anyone with my experience in a single math ed course and I certainly did not mean to imply that math ed courses in general are a waste of time. I understand that people interested in elementary math education may not have taken a math course since high school but I was (and still am) surprised that not a single student taking a course in post-secondary math acquisition knew what post-secondary math is. I thought at least one of them would have at least minored in mathematics. That isn't what made the course a waste of my time but it made it very difficult for us to discuss math acquisition at the university level which is probably why the majority of the readings for the course involved math acquisition in grades K-4.
Okay, I'm getting confused. Was the course titled "Mathematics Acquisition in Post-Secondary Students"? Courses in Mathematics Education are usually taught at post-secondary institutions and are focused on mathematics acquisition by K-12 students. Prerequisites involved general education mathematics, at best, and thus, students would not see higher mathematics involving proofs before taking such a class. Again, I think you've missed what the goal of the course was. In any case, arguing about the course goals of one class taken years ago is not useful to anyone. I stand by my advice that taking 18 credit hours in math ed is unlikely to help you get a job in a math department unless you are looking to fill the role of the math ed person. Taking one or two classes may be helpful and getting hands-on experience will definitely be helpful.
As Conjy pointed out, this depends on the situation into which one wishes to place oneself. I suggest the OP look into attending the Legacy of R.L. Moore conference or taking one of the MAA Prep courses. Even if you have little interest in the Moore Method, it is interesting to spend a few days talking with people who are passionate about how college students learn math and the few times I've been I've gotten ideas that I implemented in both my Inquiry Based Learning courses and in my more traditional ones.
There are some programs that focus on Research in Undergraduate Mathematics Education (RUME); in fact, the MAA has a Special Interest Group that focuses on this. If you want to find out how post-secondary (as opposed to elementary or secondary) students learn mathematics so that you're a better post-secondary teacher, then you should seek those courses, discussions, and papers. However, it seems that many of the methods that we use for middle-school and high-school students also work well at the collegiate level. Unfortunately, few institutions seem interested in RUME, and the programs that truly focus on it are dwindling. |
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Alas, greatness and meaning are rarely coterminous with popular familiarity.
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ptarmigan
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 04:38:37 PM » |
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Thanks for all of your thoughts on this - I really appreciate the advice.
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mathy
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 09:16:10 PM » |
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Ptarmigan, I hope the variety of advice on this thread gives you something to think about and I hope things work out for you whether you take math ed courses or not. I'm sorry for hijacking this thread and I honestly don't know why I am continuing to engage in this but I feel like I should respond to some of cgfunmathguy's comments. Okay, I'm getting confused. Was the course titled "Mathematics Acquisition in Post-Secondary Students"?
Yes. The ed department had a graduate seminar called "Mathematics Acquisition in the X classroom" where X would change from semester to semester. It was often something like early elementary, late elementary, or middle school. When I took it, X was "secondary and post-secondary". The other students were interested in the "secondary" part because they were planning on teaching high school math and I was the only one planning on teaching post-secondary. In any case, arguing about the course goals of one class taken years ago is not useful to anyone. I stand by my advice that taking 18 credit hours in math ed is unlikely to help you get a job in a math department unless you are looking to fill the role of the math ed person. Taking one or two classes may be helpful and getting hands-on experience will definitely be helpful.
As Conjy pointed out, this depends on the situation into which one wishes to place oneself. I agree with both of you here which is what I thought I had said above. Am I missing something, or is there some other situation in which someone in a math department would need 18 credit hours in math ed? I suspect that the reason the OP asked the question is that math ed people are in high demand so this would make her eligible for some jobs she might not otherwise be competitive for. Taking that many credit hours and marketing yourself that way to get a job pretty much ensures that you will be the (or one of the) math ed person (people) in your department. That role suits some people very well but it is not for everyone. I enjoy occasionally teaching Math for Elementary Teachers but if I had to teach it every semester and, as a result, rarely got to teach Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra, or other courses for math majors then I would probably quit my job. I'm not trying to project my feelings on the matter onto the OP but I think she should think through what she wants from her career before she chooses to take all of those courses. |
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lohai0
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 09:24:50 PM » |
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[hijack] as long as we are talking about credits in related fields... I will defend a math ed phd in about a year. Thanks to a variety of scheduling quirks, I wound up taking a lot of statistics and ed psych classes. I have well over 18 credits in statistics. I have 15 credits of ed psych. (I only have a year of K-12 teaching experience) I could take another psych class, but it would have to be this summer...is it worth it? [/hijack]
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This semester's going to call for an increase in my liquor budget.
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