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[quantmeister]

I am close friends with a pharmaceutical representative, who basically is a caterer who on occasion extols the virtues of her firm's high blood pressure and high cholesterol pills to physicians willing to listen. Having never sold anything myself, I've always enjoyed her discussions regarding the process of selling. Earlier this week, I got a dose (ha!) of her techniques from one of my evening MBA students.

My syllabus makes mention of the fact that, on occasion, I might offer the class extra credit opportunities. I note that whether I will or I won't is strictly at my discretion. The student in question made a low-B on the mid-term and wanted an extra credit opportunity. I said no. He persisted with the "Why not?" model. I said such an opportunity is not, in my judgment, warranted in this circumstance. He then tried a new tack ... "Because I got such a low grade on the mid-term, and because I'd have to get such an improbably high grade on the final to get an A, I don't have much incentive to study the later material to get ready for the final, do I?" My response was, "Wow, you're pretty smart. When I was a grad student, I never could master the art of figuring out how much to study to ensure I'd get some minimally acceptable grade. But good for you for having that ability." Undaunted, he tried another tack. "Well, has any other student asked for this?" I said no. He asked, "What does that tell you?" I wanted to say, "It tells me that none of the other students is as fatuous a twit as you," but I thought better of that. I simply said, "I don't know what it tells me." His response was, "Don't you think that shows how much I care?"

On the ride home from class I realized he was using a sales technique known as "the trial close." Rather than attempting to trigger a decision, the trial close is pursued to discover the lay of the land with regard to the terms on which a decision might be reached. Further, the trial close tells the salesperson what he or she must (or might) adjust to get what he or she wants.

For giggles the next day I googled my student and found out via linkedin that not only is my student in pharmaceutical sales, he actually worked for a time at my friend's firm. My friend laughed at the story, saying that academics must be way harder to sell to than physicians.

[geonerd]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

[quantmeister]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

You'd be surprised at the things my students have objected to.

[tee_bee]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

From the OP:

My syllabus makes mention of the fact that, on occasion, I might offer the class extra credit opportunities. I note that whether I will or I won't is strictly at my discretion.

Q.E.D.

[geonerd]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

From the OP:

My syllabus makes mention of the fact that, on occasion, I might offer the class extra credit opportunities. I note that whether I will or I won't is strictly at my discretion.

Q.E.D.

From my post:
"Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion part," as the sales-student demonstrates.

[melba_frilkins]

My friend laughed at the story, saying that academics must be way harder to sell to than physicians.

I'd like to think that's true. But perhaps we're just a tougher lot because students are never trying to sell us something, they're only trying to get something from us for nothing in return. Now, if it were legal to trade extra credit opportunities for cash, brownies, or a handful of good pharmaceuticals...

PS: I don't think the OP was looking for advice on how to deal with the student. The OP said "no" and is giggling over the transparency of the student's tactics.

[tee_bee]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

From the OP:

My syllabus makes mention of the fact that, on occasion, I might offer the class extra credit opportunities. I note that whether I will or I won't is strictly at my discretion.

Q.E.D.

From my post:
"Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion part," as the sales-student demonstrates.

Maybe. But it's their tough sh!t then, right? The syllabus is crystal clear, and any students who believe that the language I quoted entitles them to extra credit, they are daft by definition. The point of the language is to alert students to the fact that, if extra credit is offered, the instructor will offer it, which suggests that begging for extra credit is unlikely to be successful. At least, that's how a discerning student would read it. If they don't have this much discernment, they don't belong in college.

[goingbatty]

If you do not intend to offer extra credit then remove that line from your syllabus. Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Announce extra credit opportunities when you are truly prepared to offer them. None of your students will object when you give them an an out-of-the-blue EC opportunity.

You'd be surprised at the things my students have objected to.

I know!  Last quarter I gave my students the option to do an extra-credit practice quiz before the tests (2.5 points each out of 500 for the class).  Someone complained on the evals about "too many random extra credit assignments".  There were 3 of these.

[quantmeister]

Gave the final last night ... a cursory glance at the responses from the student in question suggests that his confidence regarding his final grade might have been misplaced. Lord only knows what's going to happen if/when that "certain" B winds up being a C.

[rustymuscle]

As a student, if I saw in the syllabus the instructor "might" offer extra credit, I would be all over it, asking "when?"

On the flip side, I offered extra credit in one class last semester. Not one student completed the assignment.

[ideagirl]

Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Sure they will. They will process it as meaning, "teacher will grant extra credit if student is able to persuade teacher to do so." It's an invitation to be relentlessly pestered by grade-grubbers.

[knittedscarff]

If I were a smart OP, I would stop visiting these message boards and make contact with your school's legal team.

If you state you provide extra credit opportunities but you do not, the student might have a pretty good case of fraud (or bait-n-switch variations) against you and the school. The student is paying for the classes, and you aren't holding up your end of the bargain.

That low grade might impact their graduation date, costs, and job opportunities.

I think your answer to the student is what a creep would say, but there's no law against being a creep. But there's a lawyer somewhere who could make a case against you and the university.

An apocryphal story I heard along these lines is an ultra-wealthy student wanted to "slum" at a state school and found a professor doing something similar to you - not following through with a possible extra credit that would have boosted the grade. Not having the need for money, the litigation was designed to break the professor, to "teach a lesson." Now, it might not be true like grandmothers only die near tests, but maybe not. Here's a public case.

Smarten up.

http://www.myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/8455062FACF540E68525788C006C525A

[knittedscarff]

Students won't process the "entirely at your discretion" part.

Sure they will. They will process it as meaning, "teacher will grant extra credit if student is able to persuade teacher to do so." It's an invitation to be relentlessly pestered by grade-grubbers.

Quick side note - I was in industry before academia, so I might have a different take - but what is the criteria for persuading. Is there a rubric? A list of specifications? A timeline for decision making? Do you CYA at all?!?!

If not, make one.

Today.

And distribute it.

Today.

Why did you put yourself in a corner like this? Are you a self-sabotaging type?

[f_talbot]

knittedscarf, you are joking aren't you? I think you might not be, but I really hope you are. Did you read the thread? You don't see any difference between having a line on a syllabus that extra credit might be offered, and a school ripping off students by telling them they are getting credits toward a nursing certification? And, no, it is not a matter of extrapolating from one small instance to a larger instance. If it were, the OP would be administering an exam and saying the exam grades counted for a particular portion of the course only later to say that they did not count at all. Not the same as the possible extra credit issue at all.

[quantmeister]

If you state you provide extra credit opportunities but you do not, the student might have a pretty good case of fraud (or bait-n-switch variations) against you and the school.

You are so right. Which is why my syllabus doesn't say that I provide extra-credit opportunities. It says, if circumstances warrant (at the sole discretion of the instructor), extra-credit opportunities might be provided. It further states that if extra-credit opportunities are offered, they will be offered to the entire class.

I think your answer to the student is what a creep would say, but there's no law against being a creep.

Maybe you should write your Congress-critter?

Smarten up.

If only I could be as smart as you.