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[msparticularity]

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed at length before, but I'm curious about the absoluteness of this distinction, which comes up periodically in discussions of making the transition to CC teaching. I know that standard teaching loads at CCs are usually (at least?) 5/5, and I know that generally research doesn't count for T&P. But if one were coming into such a job from a job at a 4-year school with a 4/4 load, for example, how radical of a change would it be? I understand that the classes are different, the students will need more help, etc., but from the outside it doesn't seem like things would be so radically different that you couldn't still do some research (I'm thinking primarily of humanities research here, that is, not something that depends upon labs and equipment). I ask because I can see myself happily setting into a job at a CC *if* I were still able to do some writing and publishing, even if it were at a slower pace and mostly for my own edification - heck, I can even imagine a scenario where, freed from the need to write and publish a tenure book, I could explore a wider range of research interests in a blissful daze of impractical inquiry. I think I would go stir-crazy if I never got to do such stuff at all, though. I'm teaching a 4/4 load right now, and it doesn't *seem* like tacking one more class onto that load would completely destroy my ability to carve out an hour of writing time two or three days a week. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe teaching at a CC is really an entirely different realm of experience altogether?

</semi-hijack>

While I have always taught at 4-year institutions, MrP has primarily taught at CCs, and we have noticed some definite differences in atmosphere and expectations. Most notably, while as an adjunct he has been able to come and go more or less at will, he has observed that the expectation for "face time" by the full-time faculty members is pretty much M-F from 8:30-4:30 (or whatever). Further, the degree of interaction with students that is expected can go well beyond the norm for a 4-year college and look more like high school teaching; at once place, all faculty members (even the adjuncts) were expected to call students who had missed classes to get them caught up and make sure they came back and finished the semester. While these kinds of expectations for retention are increasingly falling on faculty across all settings, they seem to be more pronounced at many CCs.

The place of research also varies dramatically in many CCs. While a 4-year school with a 4/4 load may find it reasonable for a faculty member to do a bit of juggling to keep up on research, this may be treated not only as an eccentricity, but as a liability by a CC. IOW, there can be pretty drastic socialization against research in some departments in some CCs, and living with that kind of pressure can make life unpleasant if continuing your research is something that matters to you, and if you'd prefer not to have to hide that.

[dr_alcott]

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed at length before, but I'm curious about the absoluteness of this distinction, which comes up periodically in discussions of making the transition to CC teaching. I know that standard teaching loads at CCs are usually (at least?) 5/5, and I know that generally research doesn't count for T&P. But if one were coming into such a job from a job at a 4-year school with a 4/4 load, for example, how radical of a change would it be? I understand that the classes are different, the students will need more help, etc., but from the outside it doesn't seem like things would be so radically different that you couldn't still do some research (I'm thinking primarily of humanities research here, that is, not something that depends upon labs and equipment). I ask because I can see myself happily setting into a job at a CC *if* I were still able to do some writing and publishing, even if it were at a slower pace and mostly for my own edification - heck, I can even imagine a scenario where, freed from the need to write and publish a tenure book, I could explore a wider range of research interests in a blissful daze of impractical inquiry. I think I would go stir-crazy if I never got to do such stuff at all, though. I'm teaching a 4/4 load right now, and it doesn't *seem* like tacking one more class onto that load would completely destroy my ability to carve out an hour of writing time two or three days a week. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe teaching at a CC is really an entirely different realm of experience altogether?

</semi-hijack>

While I have always taught at 4-year institutions, MrP has primarily taught at CCs, and we have noticed some definite differences in atmosphere and expectations. Most notably, while as an adjunct he has been able to come and go more or less at will, he has observed that the expectation for "face time" by the full-time faculty members is pretty much M-F from 8:30-4:30 (or whatever). Further, the degree of interaction with students that is expected can go well beyond the norm for a 4-year college and look more like high school teaching; at once place, all faculty members (even the adjuncts) were expected to call students who had missed classes to get them caught up and make sure they came back and finished the semester. While these kinds of expectations for retention are increasingly falling on faculty across all settings, they seem to be more pronounced at many CCs.

The place of research also varies dramatically in many CCs. While a 4-year school with a 4/4 load may find it reasonable for a faculty member to do a bit of juggling to keep up on research, this may be treated not only as an eccentricity, but as a liability by a CC. IOW, there can be pretty drastic socialization against research in some departments in some CCs, and living with that kind of pressure can make life unpleasant if continuing your research is something that matters to you, and if you'd prefer not to have to hide that.

I'm so happy to report that I've never heard of research being treated as a liability at the CCs I'm familiar with. Nor are we expected to be on campus for much longer than most (teaching, five office hours a week, committee meetings); I used to spend about 20 hours a week on campus; now I spend more, but that's because I get more done here than at home.  Maybe I'm just lucky . . .

So in sum, as MsP says, there's just so much variety. In some cases, Corny, I would suspect that the move from a 4/4 load at a uni to a CC might not be that radical.

[tinyzombie]

Dear OP:

I see what you mean about the 'regulars' on this site.  Don't take personally the chastising "advice" of the privileged "wise" senior posters.  

I do not think these words mean what you think they mean.

I also do not think you have mastered "quotation marks."

[corny]

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed at length before, but I'm curious about the absoluteness of this distinction, which comes up periodically in discussions of making the transition to CC teaching. I know that standard teaching loads at CCs are usually (at least?) 5/5, and I know that generally research doesn't count for T&P. But if one were coming into such a job from a job at a 4-year school with a 4/4 load, for example, how radical of a change would it be? I understand that the classes are different, the students will need more help, etc., but from the outside it doesn't seem like things would be so radically different that you couldn't still do some research (I'm thinking primarily of humanities research here, that is, not something that depends upon labs and equipment). I ask because I can see myself happily setting into a job at a CC *if* I were still able to do some writing and publishing, even if it were at a slower pace and mostly for my own edification - heck, I can even imagine a scenario where, freed from the need to write and publish a tenure book, I could explore a wider range of research interests in a blissful daze of impractical inquiry. I think I would go stir-crazy if I never got to do such stuff at all, though. I'm teaching a 4/4 load right now, and it doesn't *seem* like tacking one more class onto that load would completely destroy my ability to carve out an hour of writing time two or three days a week. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe teaching at a CC is really an entirely different realm of experience altogether?

</semi-hijack>

While I have always taught at 4-year institutions, MrP has primarily taught at CCs, and we have noticed some definite differences in atmosphere and expectations. Most notably, while as an adjunct he has been able to come and go more or less at will, he has observed that the expectation for "face time" by the full-time faculty members is pretty much M-F from 8:30-4:30 (or whatever). Further, the degree of interaction with students that is expected can go well beyond the norm for a 4-year college and look more like high school teaching; at once place, all faculty members (even the adjuncts) were expected to call students who had missed classes to get them caught up and make sure they came back and finished the semester. While these kinds of expectations for retention are increasingly falling on faculty across all settings, they seem to be more pronounced at many CCs.

The place of research also varies dramatically in many CCs. While a 4-year school with a 4/4 load may find it reasonable for a faculty member to do a bit of juggling to keep up on research, this may be treated not only as an eccentricity, but as a liability by a CC. IOW, there can be pretty drastic socialization against research in some departments in some CCs, and living with that kind of pressure can make life unpleasant if continuing your research is something that matters to you, and if you'd prefer not to have to hide that.

I'm so happy to report that I've never heard of research being treated as a liability at the CCs I'm familiar with. Nor are we expected to be on campus for much longer than most (teaching, five office hours a week, committee meetings); I used to spend about 20 hours a week on campus; now I spend more, but that's because I get more done here than at home.  Maybe I'm just lucky . . .

So in sum, as MsP says, there's just so much variety. In some cases, Corny, I would suspect that the move from a 4/4 load at a uni to a CC might not be that radical.

Thanks, MsParticularity and Dr_Alcott - this seems like a nice summary of the range of possibilities! It strikes me, then, as yet another situation to feel out at the interview and/or offer stage - what the particular climate and expectations at that particular school are like.

[whynotevolve]

I have another question along these lines.  How is tenure determined at a CC?  Is your teaching evaluated or is service a bigger component?  I am only familiar with tenure at research universities.

[dr_alcott]

I have another question along these lines.  How is tenure determined at a CC?  Is your teaching evaluated or is service a bigger component?  I am only familiar with tenure at research universities.

Generally, teaching comes first, service second, and professional development (conferences, research) third. Where I am, we don't have to publish but we do have to show active involvement in our disciplines.

[this_is_my_username]

I have another question along these lines.  How is tenure determined at a CC?  Is your teaching evaluated or is service a bigger component?  I am only familiar with tenure at research universities.

 1) Teaching, and the expectation that you are taking concrete steps to become an ever better teacher. If you are willing to develop online or hybrid courses, this is a huge plus.
 2) A solid service record, doesn't have to be flashy. Just show up and do your job on committees.
 3) Staying abreast of intellectual developments in your field (go to a few conferences)

 I never seen research become a liability unless your teaching is horrid

 The bonus is that tenure comes after three years at many CCs. Pay is great to decent in metro areas, I make 10-20K more than my colleagues at small four-year places, and they have twice the preps.

 At SLACs, they tend to look for the fusion of undergrad teaching with research. At CCs, they are treated more or less separately. I have more of a SLAC philosophy, and interviewed that way, and my CC thought it was neat.