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[shrek]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

[history_grrrl]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

Good point. The file was so weak anyway that it was already a non-starter.

[polly_mer]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

Good point. The file was so weak anyway that it was already a non-starter.

I haven't done it yet, but I can imagine being in a position that I am the only person to write a letter and, because my reputation is the one on the line, writing something that says, "Joe is a nice guy, but he's not right for your rigorous program."

[systeme_d_]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

Good point. The file was so weak anyway that it was already a non-starter.

I haven't done it yet, but I can imagine being in a position that I am the only person to write a letter and, because my reputation is the one on the line, writing something that says, "Joe is a nice guy, but he's not right for your rigorous program."

When I directed an MA program, I wrote (and received)  letters recommending denial of admission every once in a while.  It's a relatively common practice in my (small) field.

I sometimes wrote letters like this for an advisee who just wasn't up to the standards of a particular PhD program, but who might be for others.  Other times, I was warning a PhD program about exactly what they'd get from my advisee if they admitted her.

In my field, a letter-writer's reputation is everything.  Like I said, we're small.  Everyone knows everyone else.  Honesty is absolutely necessary when referring a student to a department comprised entirely of folks you know.  You will see them all at the conference next fall, and they'll call you out if Stu Dent turns out to be something other than what you described.

[rebelgirl]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

Good point. The file was so weak anyway that it was already a non-starter.

I haven't done it yet, but I can imagine being in a position that I am the only person to write a letter and, because my reputation is the one on the line, writing something that says, "Joe is a nice guy, but he's not right for your rigorous program."

Yes . . . and such a student might be furious enough to target you for "ruining my career" . . . That's why I like the upthread suggestions about heading the whole thing off at the pass by telling the student that I could not write in support of his/her applications.  I've heard stories of faculty being sued by students over weak letters.  I've not heard of any such lawsuits sticking (others may have?), but I'd as soon not be in the position to have to defend myself.  And if the student gets the message that he/she is doing something wrong, maybe the student can rectify that and earn some good recommendations before being shot down.  The upfront honesty seems, ultimately, to be a win-win approach (though, as mountainguy said, many students won't appreciate it). 

[fosca]

"I would be happy to write you a recommendation. However you should know that I will have to write about you constantly talk and text in class. This is going to be a red flag to any graduate advisor and you probably won't get in. So it might be better for your sake if you chose someone else."

I did this for a student, but I also enclosed the rude accusatory e-mail that he sent me after the first test when he didn't do as well as he thought he should, accusing me of being a horrible teacher, etc.  I never did hear back from him after that.  I figure it was a chance to show the young'un that what they write/post/e-mail on the Internet can come back to bite them.

[theritas]

There really are so few teachable moments where we get to say, "You know what? I didn't appreciate the way you treated me in the classroom" with any real consequence.  While we should do all that we can to ensure our students' future successes, we may choose the long term prospects that this lesson offers over the short term acceptance into a grad program.

[polly_mer]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"

Being on the end of the receiving department, wouldn't you rather know?

Good point. The file was so weak anyway that it was already a non-starter.

I haven't done it yet, but I can imagine being in a position that I am the only person to write a letter and, because my reputation is the one on the line, writing something that says, "Joe is a nice guy, but he's not right for your rigorous program."

Yes . . . and such a student might be furious enough to target you for "ruining my career" . . .

Eh, I already ruin so many careers every year that what's one more?  Perhaps you aren't teaching the "right" population if you aren't screamed at on a regular basis for ruining careers (aka requiring people to do work to earn a passing grade) as I am.

I wouldn't torpedo anyone, but I can see telling people I'm going to write a letter like that and have them take me up on it.  After all, students do that for other writing I do for them already for things like a letter to the dean "supporting" their grade change request or extremely late drop with which I don't agree. 

"I do not support your grade change request and the letter will state that I do not want the grade changed"
"That's ok.  It just has to be a letter from you."
"All right.  I'll have it sent by Thursday." 

Whoa is that a learning experience for students of which I do not wish to deprive them.