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[mirandaf]

Evening, all. So a reasonably bright but slightly rude student has asked me for a letter of recommendation for grad school. By "slightly rude" I mean that she's taken a number of classes with me in which she does fine academically, but inevitably sits in the front row and either (a) talks to a neighbor, to the point where I frequently have to ask her (once) to stop talking, or (b) non-secretly texts for minutes on end, to the point where I stop talking and stare at her until she finally gets a clue that something is up, looks up, realizes I'm staring at her, then says, 'Oh, sorry' and stops. It usually only takes a once-per-class comment from me to make her stop, but there's no lasting effect to the next class.

So she's bright, but a mild and chronic pain in class. I don't particularly like her, and don't really want to write the letter. Is it fair for me to say no?

Thanks for your thoughts.

MirandaF

[yemaya]

Yes, but I think that you would also be doing her a courtesy if you told her why.  Tell her that based on her behavior (give specifics), you are unable to recommend her. 

[oldadjunct]

I come from a business standpoint; I don't "owe" anyone a recommendation.  If a student did the job, even excelled at it, yet alienated me in the process, then "no" is the only answer and no explanation is necessary.   In such a circumstance my grade is on the transcript.  Enough said.

[profreader]

I'm often asked for recommendation letters. I agree with what's been said - I wouldn't write the letter. I've only had to decline writing a letter a few times: in one instance, it was because I just wasn't familiar enough with the student's work; in another, it was for a similar reason. I do think you'd be doing this student a great service if you tell her - very neutrally, of course - that you can't recommend her because of her choice of actions in your class. That's not grad-school behavior.

I've seen a students finally make the connection - sometimes for the first time, it seems - that their actions have consequences. (And that - surprise! - they are not invisible to us as they sit just a few feet away.)

[systeme_d_]

What a marvelous opportunity for karmic justice to work itself out.

[larryc]

"I would be happy to write you a recommendation. However you should know that I will have to write about you constantly talk and text in class. This is going to be a red flag to any graduate advisor and you probably won't get in. So it might be better for your sake if you chose someone else."

[mirandaf]

So I'm sensing a trend here... :)

Thanks, everyone.

MirandaF

[proftowanda]

"I would be happy to write you a recommendation. However you should know that I will have to write about you constantly talk and text in class. This is going to be a red flag to any graduate advisor and you probably won't get in. So it might be better for your sake if you chose someone else."

". . . .So it might be better for your sake if you chose some other instructor in whose class you did not talk to a neighbor to the point that the instructor frequently had to ask you to stop talking, and some other instructor in whose class you did not openly text for minutes on end to the point that the instructor had to stop teaching the rest of the students until you finally got a clue -- or at least, some other instructor who only had to do this once, rather than repeatedly in class after class. 

"In graduate school, you may get told how to comport yourself as a grown-up only once . . . if at all.  And if you can get in at all, by having behaved better in some other class on this campus."

Mirandaf, you know that you want to say that, as you did in your first post.  At least, you got to say it here.
 

[mountainguy]

I used to get letter requests from students like this on a fairly regular basis at PepsiU. Just say no, but be prepared for the student to react poorly, no matter how neutral you are when describing the offending behavior.

[marlborough]

I usually preface these with "When I write you a letter of recommendation, it isn't just a formality or a box to check off on the application.  I am telling a colleague--someone in the field I probably know personally--that you are suitable and will do me credit in their program.  If you go to that program and behave disruptively, it reflects on me, and any other student I recommend, so if you ask me for a letter, I am obliged to tell them about your classroom demeanor."

A lot of students genuinely think a LOR is just a scavenger hunt item, available from anyone, no matter how peripheral the connection, and with about as much weight.   

[usukprof]

Right, I say (2) that my reputation is on the line and therefore I must be honest, and (2) I will write a letter if you really want me to but I suspect that would *hurt* your chances to get the job and you'd be better off finding someone that can honestly write glowing comments about you.

[geonerd]

A lot of students genuinely think a LOR is just a scavenger hunt item, available from anyone, no matter how peripheral the connection, and with about as much weight.   

Chime. I have declined to write letters on the grounds that I never got to know the student in our huge lecture class. My spiel goes something like this:  I ask students to bring the recommendation form to my office. I point to the checklist items that ask the reviewer to assess maturity, leadership, creativity, critical thinking, etc. and tell the student "I will leave these items blank or check N/A. The readers will then question YOUR thought process. The readers will wonder why in the world you chose to get a letter from someone who barely knows you and left all the categories blank? The readers will wonder 'Is this the best letter the applicant could muster?' Speak with faculty with whom you did an independent study, a research project, or took a small seminar class. Ask someone who knows you very well and can do more than check these boxes, but write 1-2 pages with concrete examples that illustrate your maturity, leadership, and creativity. Good luck with your application."

[shrek]

I don't usually refuse to write a letter, and if I don't want to write a letter I will explain what I will say and why. For example, I couple of years ago a student who had volunteered in my lab asked me for a letter. I asked them to see me (the request came via email). They came in with their packet of information that I usually ask for ready to hand it in. They were surprised when I explained that I might not be their best letter writer-- I went on to say that they had done a great job when they were in the lab. But, that they had signed up to volunteer 10 hours a week and that according to the records, they had missed about 75% of the time. So I would include that also. They tried to argue that it was a volunteer position and that they were very busy. I said that they needed to learn to gauge how much time they could reasonably commit to things and that signing up to volunteer in a lab was a commitment that in their case they had not fullfilled-- that it wasn't a matter of having a list of activities but following through on those things. Anyway, they realized that a letter from me would probably hurt. I'm not sure they learned the greater lesson but I felt it was my responsibility to try. Without this kind of feedback I don't know that some of these students have any self-awareness.

[rebelgirl]

"I would be happy to write you a recommendation. However you should know that I will have to write about you constantly talk and text in class. This is going to be a red flag to any graduate advisor and you probably won't get in. So it might be better for your sake if you chose someone else."

I love how succinct and direct this is.  I might also add what marlborough noted re: what it means for us to vouch for a student.  Truly, students don't get the LOR process or its point, and telling them directly will help them down the road.  

[history_grrrl]

I appreciate this thread a great deal. I get tired of reading letters of reference from faculty members who apparently couldn't bring themselves to say no, and then wrote letters saying things like, "Suzy attended class regularly and was fairly polite." Really? Of course, it may be the case that the student didn't have anyone else to ask. But still . . . when you have nothing to say, what is the point?

Astonishingly, I recently read a file in which a letter-writer recommended against admitting the student to the program. I can't believe this person didn't simply refuse the request. Even if a student pushed hard, it seems incumbent on such a letter-writer to say, "Absolutely not!"