next »

[fedscholar]

 Here it is:

http://www.sfu.ca/~mcollard/documents/MarshallJ.C.etal.2009.pdf

[totoro]

If you are around 60 then it is likely to be a problem. No problem at all for someone in their 40s I think.

[jerseydevil]

As a former lawyer, I can say that age discrimination is illegal.  If they try it on you, do the legal action against those meanies.  They are supposed to know that it is illegal.

[abd_jhs]

I think it's always a factor. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm 25 and applying and faculty positions (I graduated two years early). I've had no problems landing adjunct positions, but did get the following advice from the dept chair when I was hired: "make sure they call you professor."

My thesis advisor was turned down for several faculty positions on the basis of him being "too young," as well (despite having a couple of Nature papers and other pubs).

Discrimination is always out here!

[mystictechgal]

As a former lawyer, I can say that age discrimination is illegal.  If they try it on you, do the legal action against those meanies.  They are supposed to know that it is illegal.

And just how, pray tell, does one go about proving that?

I can't speak to academia, but I can say that age bias certainly exists in businesses (not all, of course). I've seen it from one side of the fence, and experienced it on the other. Proving it, even if you have the time and money necessary to seek legal action and see it through, is another thing, entirely. And, if you manage it? Then what? You're not likely to want to work there, and now that you have a reputation for taking legal action, what are the odds of your being hired elsewhere? Best hope you get one heck of a settlement.

[obprof]

I think it depends a lot on the department. I know some that are facing some demographic challenges... everyone was hired at around the same time (when the school was founded, about 30 years ago), and everyone is now thinking about retiring soon.

So the idea of hiring an Assistant Prof who is about their age is a non-starter, no matter how excellent the candidate.

[heptameron]

Thanks for all the replies to this question--quite helpful, if disturbing in terms of implications.

I also asked three professional organizations about the question (by "professional" I mean discipline/field-related national organizations).  That is, I emailed the employees of these organizations that appeared---from their job titles---to have some level of responsibility for speaking to the question. 
In each case, the employee emailed me back to say that age discrimination is illegal and that all search committees know that federal law protects citizens from illegal discrimination.  Two of the organization representatives also added some version of a statement about how most universities and colleges have anti-discrimination policies in place that all search committees are required, by university administrators, to follow completely. 

Therefore, is it reasonable for me to conclude that age discrimination within the academic job market is common despite its illegality? 
Should I conclude that age discrimination is illegal but that faculty on search committees are willing to do it anyway because they don't care about federal laws? Apparently it is not due to faculty ignorance, since, according to the professional organizations, all search committees know the laws.

[scampster]

Therefore, is it reasonable for me to conclude that age discrimination within the academic job market is common despite its illegality?  Should I conclude that age discrimination is illegal but that faculty on search committees are willing to do it anyway because they don't care about federal laws?

So many subjective things go into the decision that you can never know if it is happening. If you go into an interview paranoid that it will happen, you are not going to do your best and will probably come off funny and not as yourself. They roughly know how old you are already - if it were a problem, you probably wouldn't have been invited to campus.

You will always encounter some people who will judge you on things that they shouldn't, but you shouldn't go around assuming everyone is like that, or else you will just end up coming off as a bitter person.

[lyndonparker]

Thanks for all the replies to this question--quite helpful, if disturbing in terms of implications.

I also asked three professional organizations about the question (by "professional" I mean discipline/field-related national organizations).  That is, I emailed the employees of these organizations that appeared---from their job titles---to have some level of responsibility for speaking to the question. 
In each case, the employee emailed me back to say that age discrimination is illegal and that all search committees know that federal law protects citizens from illegal discrimination.  Two of the organization representatives also added some version of a statement about how most universities and colleges have anti-discrimination policies in place that all search committees are required, by university administrators, to follow completely. 

Therefore, is it reasonable for me to conclude that age discrimination within the academic job market is common despite its illegality? 
Should I conclude that age discrimination is illegal but that faculty on search committees are willing to do it anyway because they don't care about federal laws? Apparently it is not due to faculty ignorance, since, according to the professional organizations, all search committees know the laws.

Scampster is right. You really can't worry about this too much. I went on the job market in my early 40s and was quite successful. I know colleagues who were hired at about 50. The vast majority of candidates we see are in their late 20s to mid 30s. I do think some places prefer that age group because it is what they perceive as "normal," but you really can't control that. If you apply broadly, someone will think your age and experience is an advantage.

[fedscholar]

Heptameron,

I don't think anyone would ever be caught in writing saying the that they discriminate. You would be better off talking to a friend off the record. I have a buddy who I revere. He graduated from a top tier university with top name prof. He applied for a few super prestigious jobs in terrific locations as an ABD, got pretty close but did not get an offer, then took a management job and provided for his family. He has been looking at tt jobs lately, now in his early 50s. He asked one of our friends, now a full, distinguished professor who respects him a great deal about his prospects. She told him his race is run. This was from a University of California perspective. I will say the person, although unassailably talented, has not shown much aggression in pursuing either teaching or research. He is just so good at analysis and writing that people tend to bring him on board.

It is good to hear that a number of 40 somethings are making the cut. So, focus on the possibilities. Perhaps recognizing that after 5 years or so, you might want to move on to Plan B. Try to put this out of your mind for your interview though. It is irrelevant at this point.

For now, we should all pray, chant, fast, or visualize an improved economy. Like you, I hear the clock ticking, even as this blasted economy hoses season after hiring season and increases the glut of great candidates. The economy is a far bigger obstacle for us, IMO.

[msparticularity]

I was hired for my first TT position, at a RU/H, at the age of 48, and have just (at the age of 52) accepted a position at a well-ranked SLAC. That said, I am in education, and it is certainly the case that in the professional fields it is far more common for people to be older when they first go on the market, given several years working in the field first.

I think that discrimination, when it occurs, is as often a cultural issue as one of pure judgment about age.  Here's what I mean by that: all of us know some people who are, very clearly, of a certain age group. They identify generationally with certain styles (fashion and personal appearance generally), have habits of speech, and make cultural references that ground them in that age group. Coming across as "too young" carries perceptions not of excessive youth, but of immaturity. Conversely, Boomers are now widely perceived as being of retirement age--"past it" in terms of age and power--so I think that people who are immediately identifiable as Boomers can also be pigeonholed as "too old" to keep up with current demands and trends. Younger department members may feel concern that an older candidate may not respect them, or they simply may think they'll have so little in common that no real communication can take place. Demonstrating that we are aware of current trends in our own field, and in touch with ideas and trends in the larger society, can go a long way toward addressing these concerns--especially when we make clear that we are genuinely interested in others' areas of expertise as well.

Certainly, I think that if you are quite conscious of your age, and tend to perceive those around you in terms of theirs, or as being younger/less mature/less expert, that will come across to those interviewing you. I'm also not suggesting that you try to dress like a younger person, but you do want to be sure you're not dressing like a middle-aged person--rather, age-neutral and timeless is the goal. Some awareness of contemporary arts and culture can be helpful, but definitely stick to stuff you find genuinely interestingly. Again, the goal is not to come across as younger than you are, but rather not to be bound up in age and generation.

[westcoastgirl]

I was hired for my first TT position, at a RU/H, at the age of 48, and have just (at the age of 52) accepted a position at a well-ranked SLAC. That said, I am in education, and it is certainly the case that in the professional fields it is far more common for people to be older when they first go on the market, given several years working in the field first.

I think that discrimination, when it occurs, is as often a cultural issue as one of pure judgment about age.  Here's what I mean by that: all of us know some people who are, very clearly, of a certain age group. They identify generationally with certain styles (fashion and personal appearance generally), have habits of speech, and make cultural references that ground them in that age group. Coming across as "too young" carries perceptions not of excessive youth, but of immaturity. Conversely, Boomers are now widely perceived as being of retirement age--"past it" in terms of age and power--so I think that people who are immediately identifiable as Boomers can also be pigeonholed as "too old" to keep up with current demands and trends. Younger department members may feel concern that an older candidate may not respect them, or they simply may think they'll have so little in common that no real communication can take place. Demonstrating that we are aware of current trends in our own field, and in touch with ideas and trends in the larger society, can go a long way toward addressing these concerns--especially when we make clear that we are genuinely interested in others' areas of expertise as well.

Certainly, I think that if you are quite conscious of your age, and tend to perceive those around you in terms of theirs, or as being younger/less mature/less expert, that will come across to those interviewing you. I'm also not suggesting that you try to dress like a younger person, but you do want to be sure you're not dressing like a middle-aged person--rather, age-neutral and timeless is the goal. Some awareness of contemporary arts and culture can be helpful, but definitely stick to stuff you find genuinely interestingly. Again, the goal is not to come across as younger than you are, but rather not to be bound up in age and generation.

I had to laugh at this. I guess these rules don't apply once you are on the other side. Lately, I've been asking my friends and husband about female-dress on the market (since I want to start looking around). I asked about the attire of an older woman on a committee the other day and the answer was, "Think of a patchwork living room rug." I had to laugh.

[scion]

Therefore, is it reasonable for me to conclude that age discrimination within the academic job market is common despite its illegality? 
Should I conclude that age discrimination is illegal but that faculty on search committees are willing to do it anyway because they don't care about federal laws? Apparently it is not due to faculty ignorance, since, according to the professional organizations, all search committees know the laws.

No, no, and no.  There is nothing reasonable, conclusive, or apparent here.  Unless you have access to a time machine, worry about something you can control.

[liberta]

This is a quote from the website of the EEOC:

"Age Discrimination & Work Situations
The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment."

Therefore, if you feel you were discriminated against because of your age, you should go to the site (http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/charge.cfm ) and

consider...

"Filing A Charge of Discrimination
If you believe that you have been discriminated against at work because of your race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information, you can file a Charge of Discrimination. All of the laws enforced by EEOC, except for the Equal Pay Act, require you to file a Charge of Discrimination with us before you can file a job discrimination lawsuit against your employer. In addition, an individual, organization, or agency may file a charge on behalf of another person in order to protect the aggrieved person's identity. There are time limits for filing a charge."


Don't allow academic prejudices (which are quite prevalent) to intimidate you!!!!!!!!!

[merinoblue]

This is terribly field-dependent.  In nursing, it's not uncommon to see female candidates move out of their postdocs into a PI position in their mid- to late-40s, and even early 50s.  Why?  They've already had one career as a clinician before they entered a PhD programme.  In addition, they may have taken one or more mat leaves.