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[fiona]

The worst student presentations I've seen in my life occurred today. Unprepared, rambling, chronically repetitive.

E-mails from two different students who somehow wanted to do retroactive drops of courses they took last fall and in the spring of 2009. I was supposed to write up some complicated narrative to some unknown office and attach their papers (which I don't have, having returned them to the students after they wrote them, whenever that was). And it's all supposed to be on dept. letterhead, which we don't even have anymore.

This no doubt duplicates other threads, but if anyone feels like adding a Flakey Strikes Again narrative, this space is available.

The Fiona

[weathered]

This is why I don't require presentations anymore.

[fiona]

This is why I don't require presentations anymore.

You prefer plagiarized papers?

The Fiona

[weathered]

*sigh*

[nocurving]

E-mails from two different students who somehow wanted to do retroactive drops of courses they took last fall and in the spring of 2009. I was supposed to write up some complicated narrative to some unknown office and attach their papers (which I don't have, having returned them to the students after they wrote them, whenever that was). And it's all supposed to be on dept. letterhead, which we don't even have anymore.
The Fiona

At my uni, they just require an instructor's signature on the form.  The student supplies the supporting documents on why they deserve the late withdrawal.   I don't even know why they bother to put the box for the instructor's signature as they don't even take it into account.  It's even stated there on the form that while instructor's comments will be helpful, they are not the bases for approval.  I've had a couple that asked for retro drop after 2 years with very "fishy" excuses so I chose "do not recommend" but they approved it anyways.  THEN, last fall, I had a couple whose grades became "withdrawn" instead of the failing mark after the grades were submitted.  I've had a similar incident before and when I inquired about it, was told it is possible if the student had a medical withdrawal from the uni.  However, I can see that these two latest ones are still on campus and my class was the only one they retroactively withdrew from.  Should I be a curious George and ask how or just pretend I don't know about it?

[penultimate24]

Fiona,

So many of my peers are reporting major headaches with student presentations. Rambling, plagiarized, missing citations, disorganized, etc.

I find myself rethinking their usefulness, since so many peers are noting the massive back and forth flaky student emails (issues with contacting the group, issues with direction, etc). My one colleague even requires them to send him the project 2-3 days before the actual presentation so he can critique it and aid them...and shock...he finds himself chasing students for these powerpoints...and when he receives them they are abysmal.

I sit back and wonder..."why are we doing this?" I mean, I know the learning objectives....but I keep thinking there may be better assignments out there. I echo the point about problems with papers, though, as I have seen too many of these to count. So..then...what to do? Quizzes and tests only go so far. Perhaps interviews? Creative-bent assignments? I don't know....

[lucero]

There is something wrong with students and their ability to relate and speak in public these days. I know that there have always been shy people and some people are petrified to speak in public but the "I can't/won't/don't like to/ speak in public" mantra is now endemic among college students. I think this is scary. Unless these students end up in a job in a call center (oh--they would have problems with that since they don't like to talk to strangers on the phone) or just processing on a computer in a cubicle, they are going to have to work with other people, deal with clients, give presentations, etc. I have never seen so many people who have a problem with getting up in front of class and giving a presentation or raising their hand in class to answer a question!!

We continue to give presentations, because even though "business" says that higher ed does not prepare students, we know that students will have to do some public speaking and presentations and this is good practice. I think to let this go is to doom a generation of students to perpetual shyness and inability to give a short presentation in a business meeting!!

[mountainguy]

Welcome to my world. My primary teaching responsibility is Intro to Oral Communication.

We are seeing an increase in the number of students who have anxiety issues about presentations, but I'm not convinced that that the cause is an innate inability to communicate. From what I've seen, they're pretty good at communicating with their peers hen they want to be good at it. Unless they participated in theater or competitive speech/debate activities in high school, most students have never been trained in how to make an effective presentation prior to my class.* As a result, they tend to find the material challenging and tend to question the relevance of it. I've gotten better at "selling" the class with experience, but it's not an easy prep by any stretch of the imagination.



*Presentational Skills at the K-12 level most often get lumped into the Language Arts curriculum and are an afterthought for teachers, who rightly have other pressures to worry about. If a separate Public Speaking course is offered at all, it is typically an elective. There are at least two states I can think of that have more specific Public Speaking requirements for high school curricula, but those are the exception to the norm.

[merce]

Interestingly enough the presentations are where my students shine.
Actually, they shine with presentations and the two creative assignments I give that allow them to show their own aesthetics. Content and critical thinking and digestions of facts and meaning are where my kids falter.

I've heard people on my campus comment on the fact that our students are very good at packaging but very weak in content. It seems like different places inspire different focii. The kids here are very concerned with their image. My kids are most definitely anxious about whose work looks/seems best. I suppose the package is visible to everyone and so they can get nervous and try to one-up the others while content isn't so readily visible to those who don't have the ability to assess it.

Flakes here do stupid, stupid stuff just to fit in. It's hard work that they don't know anything about.
Flakey student: I don't understand the context of what we're talking about.

We're talking about the history of this country in these 3 centuries. We read a history book on it. That is the context. Did she read the book. Nope.

[merinoblue]

There is something wrong with students and their ability to relate and speak in public these days. I know that there have always been shy people and some people are petrified to speak in public but the "I can't/won't/don't like to/ speak in public" mantra is now endemic among college students. I think this is scary. Unless these students end up in a job in a call center (oh--they would have problems with that since they don't like to talk to strangers on the phone) or just processing on a computer in a cubicle, they are going to have to work with other people, deal with clients, give presentations, etc.

They'll also have problems with working in call centers because it won't jive with their vision of landing in a rewarding career with generous compensation, and moving quickly up the ladder to success.

[penultimate24]

Merino---

SO RIGHT. Often I hear about how they will make "more money than Donald Trump" with a 4 year degree...in...English, or History, or Philosophy, etc.

They honestly expect a great paying job right out of the gate, with zero expereince, zero prep, and....average-to-below-average grades. Never mind the poor skill set, lack of time management, and non-existent work ethic.

[sagit]

Welcome to my world. My primary teaching responsibility is Intro to Oral Communication.

We are seeing an increase in the number of students who have anxiety issues about presentations, but I'm not convinced that that the cause is an innate inability to communicate. From what I've seen, they're pretty good at communicating with their peers hen they want to be good at it. Unless they participated in theater or competitive speech/debate activities in high school, most students have never been trained in how to make an effective presentation prior to my class.* As a result, they tend to find the material challenging and tend to question the relevance of it. I've gotten better at "selling" the class with experience, but it's not an easy prep by any stretch of the imagination.



*Presentational Skills at the K-12 level most often get lumped into the Language Arts curriculum and are an afterthought for teachers, who rightly have other pressures to worry about. If a separate Public Speaking course is offered at all, it is typically an elective. There are at least two states I can think of that have more specific Public Speaking requirements for high school curricula, but those are the exception to the norm.

This is an important point. If you are asking students to give presentations, are you also teaching them how to do a quality presentation?  The *only* presentation that I remember doing in high school was in my 11th grade biology class.  My biology teacher apparently decided that presentation skills are important, regardless of the subject you are in.  I was pretty fortunate that my Dad trained me in how to be a good public speaker. 

I teach a smallish seminar (N=20) for undergraduates in the fall.  There are at least 3 presentations during class, starting with more informal small group presentations moving towards a more formal presentation from each student of their final project.  I like to think that the course design supports them in increasing their ability to know how and what to do when asked to do a class presentation and hopefully they'll all be a little better the next time they do this in a class.

Now, this isn't to say that this excuses fiona's student who wasn't prepared.  You shouldn't have to teach a college student to prepare for a talk any more than you should have to tell them they need to study for an exam.  That's more of a choice to be lazy.

[lucero]

Ok. That's a good point about K-12. Maybe we need a list in the university of all the skills taught and NOT taught in K-12 so we know what we are dealing with. I had to give talks and do presentations starting in 5th grade. I also gave a speech at my 8th grade graduation, we did plays, performances, etc. all before 5th grade and definitely before high school. In high school we had debates, mock trials, theatre classes and all kinds of opportunities that required getting up in front of the class and speaking or performing. So does this stuff not happen anymore in K-12? I taught K-8 for a few years but the subject I taught did not lend itself to presentations. I don't know what the other teachers did, so maybe I am out of touch with what we can expect from college students in terms of public speaking and presentations.

[plasmodesmata]

The high school my two youngest attended had a senior project requirement for graduation that has been in place for the past 20+ years. Students took a one semester prep class to learn how to research a topic and design a presentation. The project culminated in a 20 minute oral presentation to a group of faculty and administrators followed by a question and answer period.

One of my friends teaches at the high school and she recently told me that the school has discontinued the requirement as of this year. Despite the obvious benefits, there has been an increasing number of parents protesting the requirement. The principal and the faculty involved in the project have become overwhelmed in mediating all the reasons parents bring forward as to why an oral presentation is unfair to their child. The group no longer wants to decide if an oral presentation defies Little Timmy's IEP or if Shy Sally really will be permanently scarred by being forced to speak in front of a group of adults.

Methinks this does not bode well for me. I teach at the local CC.

[lucero]

The high school my two youngest attended had a senior project requirement for graduation that has been in place for the past 20+ years. Students took a one semester prep class to learn how to research a topic and design a presentation. The project culminated in a 20 minute oral presentation to a group of faculty and administrators followed by a question and answer period.

One of my friends teaches at the high school and she recently told me that the school has discontinued the requirement as of this year. Despite the obvious benefits, there has been an increasing number of parents protesting the requirement. The principal and the faculty involved in the project have become overwhelmed in mediating all the reasons parents bring forward as to why an oral presentation is unfair to their child. The group no longer wants to decide if an oral presentation defies Little Timmy's IEP or if Shy Sally really will be permanently scarred by being forced to speak in front of a group of adults.

Methinks this does not bode well for me. I teach at the local CC.

Thank you so much for that information. This is really crazy. What are we doing to our children?? After I wrote that post I started to think about all the opportunities I had to get up in front of people and speak or perform as a child and teenager. I never had a moment in college when I was upset or hesitant about answering in class or getting up and doing a presentation. The fact is that so many of these extracurricular opportunities to perform and speak (debate club, theatre, band/orchestra, chorus) no longer exist at some public schools due to cuts. And if they are getting rid of the academic requirements for presentations (even low stakes ones) how are students going to be able to do presentations in college and/or participate in a discussion, and as a result, what are they going to do ON THE JOB? How will these students even do well in an interview without falling to pieces? This is not something that should be left up to college courses to teach. It has been a given for decades that students can do a presentation. (And I don't mean with PowerPoint--putting a PP together is actual something that could be taught pretty quickly in a college course).  But getting them over their fear of speaking in public? My university does have a big communications department and public speaking classes--the students that I have who have taken those classes are much more confident--but I wonder if they self-select? Those who are already confident and extroverted seem to gravitate towards that field. Those that are timid or introverted, who would benefit from those courses, do not.