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[walkingtree]

I am just curious. I know a few excellent people who didn't get TT jobs or even academic jobs. It made me wonder, what do their former or current advisors feel about their students not getting well deserved jobs? Are you embarrassed or willing to do anything to have your students placed or just don't care--out of sight, out of mind?

[fayefaye]

I'm also curious as to what folks will say. I the meantime I'll leave this often apt quote.

"No one cares about your career as much as you do"

[mleok]

Unless (and even if) your advisor is a world-famous scholar, there's only that much that an advisor can do about placing their students, even if they pull out all the stops. The market has become extremely competitive, and besides writing strong, supportive letters, mentioning the work of the student to colleagues, picking up the phone to promote a student's candidacy, and ensuring that students are properly professionally socialized, what more can an advisor actually do? At the end of the day, a department is hiring the student, and not the advisor, so the reputation and stature of the advisor only goes so far, and there's only that much pressure and influence that can be exerted before it all backfires, either at the point of hiring, or at the point of tenure.

[zharkov]

I am just curious. I know a few excellent people who didn't get TT jobs or even academic jobs. It made me wonder, what do their former or current advisors feel about their students not getting well deserved jobs? Are you embarrassed or willing to do anything to have your students placed or just don't care--out of sight, out of mind?

It is not helpful to consider this a case of people "deserving" jobs, as though it was some sort of moral deal.  Rather, it is a tight market, and some (even many) well-qualified people won't get the jobs they hoped for.

I try to be helpful with current advisees and grads, try to be a mentor and steer them in certain directions, but some disregard the suggestions.  I'm reasonable happy about how my advisees have done.

[scion]

I can't comment from the perspective of an advisor, but I can share something about mine. Another student of my advisor (several years ahead of me in the program) started the job search and quickly received a campus invite from a very strong department in our field.  The student turned down the invitation.  Advisor was not happy and felt it was in very bad form to reject a campus invitation, and recommended a psychiatrist.  The student ultimately decided to not enter academia. S/he was going through a period of emotional turmoil due, in part, to the dissertation process and could not envision a future with the pressures of academia.  I think the advisor recommended therapy because s/he was genuinely concerned about the student, but also because s/he felt invested and wanted the student to get a good job. 

[greyscale]

Unless (and even if) your advisor is a world-famous scholar, there's only that much that an advisor can do about placing their students, even if they pull out all the stops. The market has become extremely competitive, and besides writing strong, supportive letters, mentioning the work of the student to colleagues, picking up the phone to promote a student's candidacy, and ensuring that students are properly professionally socialized, what more can an advisor actually do?

Unfortunately, my postdoc advisor (who I like and respect and who does count as a world-famous scholar) is only doing the first of those four things for my labmates. I suppose he'll use the phone but only if the committee contacts him. My graduate advisor, who is a phenomenal mentor but not nearly as well known, suggests that I find an unofficial co-advisor to make up for it. But, sad as it is to see my labmates' job searches go poorly, I know his role is only a small part of the outcome.

[ruralguy]

I think, OP, you are begging for us to say we don't care, and we would rather just punch out a letter and smoke a cigarette?

I am actually not a graduate adviser, but I advise undergrads.

Even if I were the type to bark out orders, and were to bark out "Walk like a chicken!", 25% would just walk like a duck or a cow because
they wanted to, or didn't undertand the original order, or what have you. But back to reality. In reality, advisers give advice. We direct projects. We try to bond. We don't love every interaction, but in general we like having these interactions and making the most of them.
But not every student is skilled, or really likes what they do, or takes advice.

I spend a lot of time getting students to know how to fish, rather than giving them a fish. Sometimes I just give them the fish, but thats really a cheat (and who even knows if I am always better at doing this than they are!) . I write letters. I try to be as positive as I can truthfully be, but sometimes, that isn't good enough to get them into grad school . My job isn't "getting them into grad school"---its teaching them, directing them, advising them, and then, based on what I see in the end, try to put the best foot forward  for the advisee.

I suspect, in some ways, its not too too different for graduate advising, though the interlacing of egos and job placement might be tuned up quite a bit, at least in some fields and departments. Still, I think the basic core function of the adviser is the same.

If you want to know who to blame for not getting a TT, or , say, tenure,or promotion to full, or whatever, then 9 times of ten, you should begin by looking in the mirror.

Hey, my adviser might very wll see me as a failure, but I see me as one of his successes...I am almost at full prof, still publish, teach well...its not at his type of school, but we don't all want to do that.

[tortugaphd]

I'm a relative newbie at my current job.  So far, only 1 of my grad students has defended.  This person has been a VAP at another university for the past 2 years (3rd year on market this year) despite having won a national award.  His/her work is top-notch, and s/he is doing every right: getting more pubs out, networking, getting a reference letter from their current dept. chair, etc.

I am just curious. I know a few excellent people who didn't get TT jobs or even academic jobs. It made me wonder, what do their former or current advisors feel about their students not getting well deserved jobs? Are you embarrassed or willing to do anything to have your students placed or just don't care--out of sight, out of mind?

To answer your questions in order:

How do I feel about this student not getting a TT job?  I feel it is unfortunate but that--after all--s/he is in the same boat with hundreds of other very talented applicants in his/her field who also may have won prestigious awards and written top-notch dissertations.

Am I embarrassed?  No.

Am I willing to do anything to have my student placed?  I don't "place" students.  I advise students to the best of my ability, and the student goes out on the market with the best credentials that s/he has earned on his/her own.

Do I just don't care--out of sight of out mind?  No.  I have written frank and superlative reference letters for the past 3 years for this student and have continued to review cover letters, cv's, and writing samples each year.

Glad to help in answering your questions.

[voxprincipalis]

I am just curious. I know a few excellent people who didn't get TT jobs or even academic jobs. It made me wonder, what do their former or current advisors feel about their students not getting well deserved jobs? Are you embarrassed or willing to do anything to have your students placed or just don't care--out of sight, out of mind?

You getting a job is not my responsibility.

My responsibility is to prepare you for the profession.

45,000+ people ran the New York marathon in 2010. Two won (three if you count the handcycle class). Should the people who helped the other 44,997 people train be flogged? Were they delinquent? Incompetent? Deliberately trying to mess up their runners' athletic careers or performances? Should they have gotten out there on the marathon route and yelled "Faster! Faster!"...? Or would handing out supportive Gatorade be better?

You seem to have a lot of reasons why you aren't getting jobs, most of which are either someone else's fault (had terrible fallout with dissertation chair, meals at more than one campus visit were "hostile," senior scholars are trying to rip you off, SC's were threatened by your accomplishments) or some sort of unchangeable personality trait of yours (picky eater, doesn't like to ask questions). I suggest that you stop looking for someone whose negligence or wackaloonery you can point at as to why you don't have a TT job, realize that there are far more people who are trained for academia than there are jobs ("many will enter, few will win"), and concentrate on fixing those things that might be hurting your chances.

Or, discover happiness doing something else. It's all good.

VP

[walkingtree]

The reason I asked was because I read this statement in a departmental (not mine) website on placement record: "We take very seriously our responsibility to prepare graduate students to find academic employment, such as teaching or fellowship positions..." It sort of occurred to me whether some advisors took offense in not having a stellar placement record for their students. That's why I asked.

[glowdart]

The reason I asked was because I read this statement in a departmental (not mine) website on placement record: "We take very seriously our responsibility to prepare graduate students to find academic employment, such as teaching or fellowship positions..." It sort of occurred to me whether some advisors took offense in not having a stellar placement record for their students. That's why I asked.

That could be boilerplate recruitment language or it could be that the entire program is designed to provide the students with the opportunities to acquire the experiences necessary to land a job.  And, by "opportunities" here, I don't mean the opportunity for their advisor to pick up the phone and land them a job.  I mean the physical on-the-ground experiences necessary to build a good CV and have a hope in hell of getting hired. 

[fedscholar]

I wonder how old that quote is. I think placing even 50% of their PhD students in academic posts has not been likely in many fields for 20 years or more. Noble, perhaps, but completely out of touch with today's market, and probably yesterday's too.

[shrek]

I'm in a field where there has been a shortage of Ph.D.s although it is getting more competitive. I believe it is part of my job as a mentor to provide career advice from the very beginning. My students publish at least 1, often 2-3 articles in collaboration with me by the time they defend. We talk very strategically about developing a second line of research in an area where there are job postings in addition to their main area of research. All but one of my doctoral students has an academic (TT) job (and the one that doesn't is the CEO of a company in the field). I have to say though that I'm careful about who I accept to be my student, I have someone finishing up now who has a couple interviews lined up (yeah); and I have a couple more finishing in the next couple of years I hope. One of them does everything I tell them (and more) the other does exactly the opposite-- not that I'm always right, but I am active in the field and I sometimes do know something. The one who doesn't do what I strongly suggest I fear will not finish, but it's really up to them. I try to network and find out about upcoming jobs and so on. This year, of the large number of applicants we have, I may accept one student. And they won't be funded beyond TAships until after the masters-- I have NIH funding but I need someone with certain skills (and licensure in the field that doesn't come till completion of the masters). The rest of those who are applying to work with me (maybe 5-- def. not all the applicants) I just don't think are strong enough to do well in the field, and with things getting more competitive, I can only take very strong students who can get jobs. Do I care about them? yes, I think so. And I try to do what I can. In the end tho' they have to care more about their careers than I do.

[tinyzombie]

This is one of the most ridiculous OPs we've ever had.

I include coachjay and AHAstar in that number.

Don't you have any useful questions, wt?

[canuckois]

I wonder how old that quote is. I think placing even 50% of their PhD students in academic posts has not been likely in many fields for 20 years or more. Noble, perhaps, but completely out of touch with today's market, and probably yesterday's too.

What are you talking about?  This department didn't promise to place anyone.  The website says the department takes seriously its obligation to prepare students for the academic job market....as they should.  That's it.

I wouldn't put things quite as bluntly as TZ, but I agree, the OP poses an odd question.  Advisors are not parents.  There is no shame or embarrassment in the eventual fate of an advisee.  Hopefully, most care what happens to their former students, but beyond that.....what are you expecting, I wonder?