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[goingbatty]

Hi All

Might be putting the cart before horse here, but sometimes you gotta plan for the cart-that-may-be.

Anyway, just had a really good campus visit at a place that I liked a lot -- a top 50ish SLAC, looking specifically for an interdisciplinary person with postdoc and/or nonprofit experience.  And it's only an hour from where I live.  Lovely campus, lovely students, lovely colleagues, etc.

My hesitation is that I have been working half-time as a non-TT lecturer, and half time for an environmental nonprofit.  Thing is, my plan for a little while has been to go full-time with the non-profit if somehow possible, but maintain an academic affiliation with a fancy-pantsy top R1 where one of our board members is the chair of a related department.  This would be a visiting scholar position but would give lab access and academic access etc.

In my truly ideal world, I would be able to do both of these things: teach, do research with students in which they would work with the non-profit, AND still keep working with the non-profit, too.  Staying where I am is probably a non-starter, because as a non-TT person I don't have access to a lot of the internal funding that makes grant proposals possible, my access to lab space is tenuous at best, research funds are nil, and the student body is mostly commuter students who cannot go abroad to do field work (the nonprofit does work overseas).

What I would really really really love is to be on a 50% TT position, and still work for the nonprofit some, too.  (For them, I write a lot of grants, design projects, analyze and write up data, but for a huge variety of conservation projects; if I went full time, I could continue collaborating but would have to jettison a lot of my responsibilities).  Part of how I sold myself to the SLAC was "Wow, look at all these amazing projects I'm involved with and where students could help out and do research and know that it would have an application and on-the-ground impact," although also with the understanding that I would have to step back from project admin for the NGO

Now, of course I *don't* have an offer, so this is just crazy talk right now.  (There's also an internal candidate who's been there for years and I suspect it would be devastating for him to not get the job.)  But in case they did make me an offer, I'm wondering if it would be possible to negotiate for a 50% position, and what that negotiation might entail.  I realize that this might be something that can't be answered without a lot more information that I don't have, but if there's anyone reading who has seen such a thing happen, or can help me think about the potential roadblocks (esp. WRT committee/service stuff) that I need to have considered to make a proposal well thought out and viable -- well, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear it!

Thanks.

[zharkov]

Get yourself a copy of Getting to Yes, an excellent introduction to negotiations, available at many or most libraries and bookstores.

One key idea (from GTY) is to focus on interests, not bargaining positions.  So for your, your interest is to get both a tenure track appointment and remain involved with the non-profit.  Which may or may not mean a strict 50/50 split.  (interests vs. positions)

FWIW, I have know some half time and three-quarter time faculty over the years, and very rarely, faculty who had appointments at two different schools. 

[untenured]

Congrats for being in such a good position.  Your skills are in demand on two fronts.

A tenure-track job is a highly sought after position in academia.  One at a top 50 SLAC is a veritable academic jackpot.  Many good schools grant flexibility to their faculty to pursue external projects, as such projects often return reflected prestige to the institution.  I would consider not asking for the 50% line, but making clear that this non-profit enterprise will be part of your service and outreach.  You might not be able to do as much as you want to do in the short run being on the tenure-track, but over the long term you might have the best of both worlds -- a stable job with the flexibility to pursue your passion.

Another angle is the perspective of the SC.  I am currently a chair on two searches.  If an applicant asked me for a 50% TT position, I would not consider it.  Our lines were too hard-fought to be given away for the convenience of a single applicant.  Such a request might also signal to some that the applicant is not entirely serious about our school, and merely wants to use the position to 'dabble' in her true passions elsewhere.  So someone who asked for a 50% job would probably lose the job altogether.

[mleok]

Honestly, I don't see this as a real possibility, particularly for a SLAC. SLACs tend to be looking for faculty who will maintain an active presence on campus, and are less open to perennially absent faculty than a R1 might. As far as a SLAC is concerned, your contacts within the nonprofit might be valuable from the point of view of undergraduate research opportunities, but my suspicion is that they would prefer the research to be conducted on campus, so that it can be done throughout the academic year, as opposed to a situation whereby it is clear that the SLAC is simply a source of an "academic affiliation" to give you some intellectual credibility.

Even at a R1, your connections to a nonprofit will only be of real interest if it generates overheads for the university, which will require at least some portion of your research grants to be channeled through the university. Otherwise, unless the nonprofit has a particularly high national or international profile, and you are in a position of great influence and stature in the organization, it will probably not count for very much.

[seniorscholar]

There was a period when "split lines" -- half of the TT line to each spouse -- were not uncommon at small LACs, especially those in remoteish places. One difficulty that eventualted was divorce, after which one spouse almost always left town but the pay, etc. to move the other onto a full line could not be found since the department had negotiated with the dean to use it elsewhere. The other road bump was tenure -- when one spouse qualified and the other didn't, or when the dean could not see tenuring either one with such a "limited" c.v. My impression, from nothing more "factual" than gossip among others at my university who have coupled grad students on the market, is that this almost never happens any more.

[goingbatty]

Do those with SC experience think that they might be open to delaying the start date by 1-2 semesters so I could go full time with the NGO for a while and tie up as many loose ends as possible for them?

Also, FWIW, my vision is that I would be on campus all the time -- I work "remotely" for the NGO -- and still maintain full time student research.

[untenured]

Do those with SC experience think that they might be open to delaying the start date by 1-2 semesters so I could go full time with the NGO for a while and tie up as many loose ends as possible for them?

I wouldn't.  A faculty line is a cherished asset.  A line can easily disappear with shifting administration priorities and budget problems.  I would never leave a tenure line open waiting for a candidate.  It's just too risky.  If we have the authority to hire someone, we need to do so as quickly as possible.

Tie up the loose ends on the down low during your first year.

[polly_mer]

As others have mentioned, continuing to be involved with the NGO is likely to be a plus, but an official 50-50 position will be hard to negotiate at this time. 

However, you probably could negotiate something where you will take students with you in the summer to a location as part of your NGO work.  You might be able to negotiate a full-semester/year abroad experience that would be you and some students doing work for the NGO and have that be an every-N-years experience.  I know people who have managed that in various science fields where 6 months in the field is a fabulous opportunity for the students.

[fedscholar]

I think it will be a tough sell. As most people here can tell you, a tt job, with a true tenure run is not a half time or even full time job. Also,I think you would run the risk of disappointing your nonprofit when going from working with them exclusively to juggling their demands with a tt job.

If I were you, I'd go for the tt post, and if you want to keep an affiliation with the nonprofit, convert it to  and unpaid advisor or intermittent consultant role. I think the connection would be great for both parties, but you really will need to manage expectations. Unfortunately, tt positions are not known to be very flexible on the tenure run. And these are tough times all over.

I can relate on a personal level though. I have spent over a decade developing a science program I care about and which is highly successful and productive. Paradoxically, the demands of running the program day to day nearly eclipse my ability to do innovative research (I am the lead scientist, but the managerial demands always dominate). If I were in a tenure track position, I would LOVE to work with my successor to do innovative, value-added research, and to connect students with the organization.  However, I would need to relinquish control completely.

As a final thought. You undoubtedly have a good reputation/record of achievement that you want to keep in tact. Academia is a new adventure, and fully demanding on its own, or at least that is my read of those here.

[aandsdean]

Do those with SC experience think that they might be open to delaying the start date by 1-2 semesters so I could go full time with the NGO for a while and tie up as many loose ends as possible for them?

I wouldn't.  A faculty line is a cherished asset.  A line can easily disappear with shifting administration priorities and budget problems.  I would never leave a tenure line open waiting for a candidate.  It's just too risky.  If we have the authority to hire someone, we need to do so as quickly as possible.

Tie up the loose ends on the down low during your first year.

Remember the recent thread about the candidate who took a job, postponed for a year, and is now on the market without ever working at the place he accepted the job?

This is why it's unlikely you'd be able to do that.

Plus, at a teaching school, when we hire someone it's because we need that person, not because we look forward to waiting another year to get the work done.

[goingbatty]

Dang.  My husband is teaching a quarter in Paris at the start of next year and I really, really wanted to visit him.  Well, if I don't get the job I will get to console myself with a free apartment in Paris!!!

[goingbatty]

Would negotiating starting one semester late for personal reasons be feasible though?  I actually will not see my husband for 9 months if I can't visit him in France, due to his travel this quarter, my travel over the summer, and his being on quarter system he would be leaving after I started the semester...

I'm just worrying about things that have not happened yet.

[polly_mer]

Goingbatty, I'm going to ignore your question in favor of giving you my unvarnished opinion.  Do with it what you like.

What I see is that you don't want the TT job potentially offered, but want something that will fit into your life.  That's fine.  I live on the path less traveled for similar reasons.  However, no one has to accommodate your requests in the way that you envision.  You might be better off going full-time with the NGO and finding a friendly institution/collaborator that would love a frequent visitor.  I know people with those kinds of arrangements and they work pretty well.   If a TT job doesn't fit the life you want, then you can have a different kind of job and a great life.  Lots of people do.  Just because someone somewhere told you to get a TT job doesn't mean one (or one right now) is right for you.

[goingbatty]

What I see is that you don't want the TT job potentially offered, but want something that will fit into your life.  That's fine.  I live on the path less traveled for similar reasons.  However, no one has to accommodate your requests in the way that you envision.  You might be better off going full-time with the NGO and finding a friendly institution/collaborator that would love a frequent visitor.  I know people with those kinds of arrangements and they work pretty well.   If a TT job doesn't fit the life you want, then you can have a different kind of job and a great life.  Lots of people do.  Just because someone somewhere told you to get a TT job doesn't mean one (or one right now) is right for you.

True dat.  After so so so many years of searching for a TT position and being told, directly and indirectly, it was the only way to go, I finally came to the realization that maybe it wasn't the best thing for me, and I wasn't going to apply anymore and focus on the NGO.  And then I saw this one job posting that looked like it could have been written for me specifically, and I applied, and they brought me, and it was great, and now... I face all these decisions again that I thought I had decided!  The plus side, if they don't make the offer -- I will be OK.

[ruralguy]

I'm going to be honest.

If I were the Dean, I'd say no to automatic 50-50 position, though perhaps try to work out either a delayed start or some sort of teaching buyout from grants (which MIGHT have same effect)?

But I'd be worried, as a SLAC dean (hypothetical!). I'd wonder if you really wanted to be in our town, with our students, etc. Its a lot different when a 50 year old prof who had been there for two decades asks for this, then when someone negotiating for a position aks for this. I'd be concerned, and start looking for "number 2" choices email . I'd be think "Now, where did I put that other guy's email? "
I wouldn't pull the offer because you asked, but I'd worry a little.

I should say, I am NOT a dean, never have been, and don't particularly wish to be.

A few months ago, someone replied to one of my posts and said "Maybe this is why you aren't a Dean?!". I accept that. Maybe that answer and this ARE why I am not a Dean.

However, I have been at a SLAC for 13 years, have known several Deans, Presidents, and associate Deans well enough. I kind of know what some of the common mindset is, even amongst folks with every different styles.