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[onewaystreet]

cityprof, it sounds like we did things in the opposite order, creating opposite challenges for ourselves.  I took off about 7 years between undergrad and grad school, so when I kept hearing from my mentors that women should wait until they have tenure to have children, I knew that was an unrealistic timeline for me.  No one ever told me grad school would be a great time to have kids, so I entered into the process with extreme trepidation.  

And now I'm even finding myself in the perverse position of having a book that will probably come out before I land my first TT job, meaning that it very well might not count for tenure!  What a crazy business this is.

[username2]

Although, if it is the book that gets you the job, that is still time well spent. I'm sure that books, like babies, are easier the second time around.

[onewaystreet]

Oof, writing a second book sounds WAY more exhausting than having a second baby!  And so far landing this early book contract hasn't done the wonders for me on the job market that I was hoping it would, so it may, sadly, be my last...

[polly_mer]

This is off the topic of the thread, but cityprof's point about "mission creep" is so true.  I teach at a school like Cityprof's and, yes, we are expected to do research--and we do.  There are full professors who have been here for aons and have never published a thing, but those days are long gone.  Now we expect even our new hires to have some publications.  

Okay, I have to ring in with snowbound and cityprof - I'm not at a regional comprehensive masters, but one rung up (small doctoral program).  Yes, mission creep is an enormous problem.  And places with no research and very high teaching loads are incredibly unfriendly to new parents because the schedule is set in stone.  While the culture may be more family-friendly, the job duties themselves are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I teach 15 hours a week as do many people in my department once labs are factored in and our college is pretty good about letting people choose how to set up those 15 hours.  The schedule is in stone for that semester, but it wasn't handed down from on high as "Too bad that you'd like to only teach three days a week, only mornings, or only afternoons for your own reason.  Here's the schedule".  In fact, our chair and others have made the argument that if we're ever going to ramp up traditional research and maintain the high service culture (lots of people never publish, but do outreach or lead community efforts to have that count in their tenure), then we have to let people have the kinds of schedules that allow them to be productive.  Since we have tons of dual-career families where both parents are faculty, many in the same department, the flexibility in schedule sometimes translates into flexibility enough that efficient people can make it work without insane 70+ hour weeks devoted just to career.

Consequently, while new parents could still be staggering, people who get past the baby stage do pretty well.  Those people will not be competitive to move up the foodchain, but they will be competitive to get another teaching-intensive job that has a bit of research and a lot of outreach/community service.  People who get into the school-age phase and ramp up their research as the kids get older may become competitive to move to a S(mall)LAC or even a bottom-tier R2 since the teaching loads are compatible with doing the research to bang out a paper every year or so once the classes are prepped and need only minor tweaking, as I've found at 3 years in.

[macaroon]

This is off the topic of the thread, but cityprof's point about "mission creep" is so true.  I teach at a school like Cityprof's and, yes, we are expected to do research--and we do.  There are full professors who have been here for aons and have never published a thing, but those days are long gone.  Now we expect even our new hires to have some publications.  

Okay, I have to ring in with snowbound and cityprof - I'm not at a regional comprehensive masters, but one rung up (small doctoral program).  Yes, mission creep is an enormous problem.  And places with no research and very high teaching loads are incredibly unfriendly to new parents because the schedule is set in stone.  While the culture may be more family-friendly, the job duties themselves are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I teach 15 hours a week as do many people in my department once labs are factored in and our college is pretty good about letting people choose how to set up those 15 hours.  

Yes, but your child won't chose those 15 hours as hours during which he won't throw up at school.  The school district doesn't chose those 15 hours as hours during which they will never celebrate "Postmans Day" and leave you scrambling for child care.  The water mains on the way to school don't chose those 15 hours as 15 hours during which they'll never break, closing school at the last minute.

You have a stay at home husband, so you probably aren't feeling the crunch of what happens when the best laid plans all fall to crap on a teaching day.  (Or worse, a lab day for which you have  three sessions - so just canceling is a brutal option).  But I've been ripping my hair out here.

[polly_mer]

This is off the topic of the thread, but cityprof's point about "mission creep" is so true.  I teach at a school like Cityprof's and, yes, we are expected to do research--and we do.  There are full professors who have been here for aons and have never published a thing, but those days are long gone.  Now we expect even our new hires to have some publications. 

Okay, I have to ring in with snowbound and cityprof - I'm not at a regional comprehensive masters, but one rung up (small doctoral program).  Yes, mission creep is an enormous problem.  And places with no research and very high teaching loads are incredibly unfriendly to new parents because the schedule is set in stone.  While the culture may be more family-friendly, the job duties themselves are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I teach 15 hours a week as do many people in my department once labs are factored in and our college is pretty good about letting people choose how to set up those 15 hours. 

Yes, but your child won't chose those 15 hours as hours during which he won't throw up at school.  The school district doesn't chose those 15 hours as hours during which they will never celebrate "Postmans Day" and leave you scrambling for child care.  The water mains on the way to school don't chose those 15 hours as 15 hours during which they'll never break, closing school at the last minute.

You have a stay at home husband, so you probably aren't feeling the crunch of what happens when the best laid plans all fall to crap on a teaching day.  (Or worse, a lab day for which you have  three sessions - so just canceling is a brutal option).  But I've been ripping my hair out here.

You aren't wrong, Macaroon, but I cannot think of a single job that has a consistent paycheck that doesn't require some mandatory hours of work where the kid cannot come.  In the big picture, having to be on campus without the kid for only 15 hours a week is a great trade-off, even on the days when I handed the kid to a babysitter so I could run teach, let class out 15 minutes early so that my babysitter could get to class, cut lunch short to hand off the kid again to go teach, cut class short by 15 minutes to do the hand-off again, and then held office hours with Blocky running around the office.

Do I sympathize?  Yeah.  However, as someone who was almost fired from a salaried position because I medically could not get to work on freakin' time and the rule was I had to be sitting in an office for given hours, the flexibility of academia is incredible and those occasional "OMG, let's just get through it" days are worth the tradeoff.  My school has tons of kids in the halls/offices when the K-8 system is out because lots of people are parents/grandparents and that's what has to be done.

[macaroon]

This is off the topic of the thread, but cityprof's point about "mission creep" is so true.  I teach at a school like Cityprof's and, yes, we are expected to do research--and we do.  There are full professors who have been here for aons and have never published a thing, but those days are long gone.  Now we expect even our new hires to have some publications. 

Okay, I have to ring in with snowbound and cityprof - I'm not at a regional comprehensive masters, but one rung up (small doctoral program).  Yes, mission creep is an enormous problem.  And places with no research and very high teaching loads are incredibly unfriendly to new parents because the schedule is set in stone.  While the culture may be more family-friendly, the job duties themselves are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I teach 15 hours a week as do many people in my department once labs are factored in and our college is pretty good about letting people choose how to set up those 15 hours. 

Yes, but your child won't chose those 15 hours as hours during which he won't throw up at school.  The school district doesn't chose those 15 hours as hours during which they will never celebrate "Postmans Day" and leave you scrambling for child care.  The water mains on the way to school don't chose those 15 hours as 15 hours during which they'll never break, closing school at the last minute.

You have a stay at home husband, so you probably aren't feeling the crunch of what happens when the best laid plans all fall to crap on a teaching day.  (Or worse, a lab day for which you have  three sessions - so just canceling is a brutal option).  But I've been ripping my hair out here.

You aren't wrong, Macaroon, but I cannot think of a single job that has a consistent paycheck that doesn't require some mandatory hours of work where the kid cannot come. 

Yup.  HOWEVER, in comparison to an RU/VH, where you could almost always work from home, a 4/4 load is more challenging.  And it IS more difficult than a "real job".  The 14 week semester is absolutely brutal.  How often do we tell students that they need to drop because life has gotten in the way?  We're not as easily afforded that luxury.  At SLACs, too, there isn't often another person that could cover your class in any meaningful way.   I missed far less class than any of my students when my grandmother died. 

A couple of my "mom" friends have gotten fired because the poop hit the fan right at the time they started a new job, and they couldn't take the time off that they needed.  However, they aren't in a national-sized job market like we are, and they were able to quickly find work elsewhere.  Can we do that?  Not really.  My colleagues and I are setting our children up, sick, in our offices on air mattresses.  Don't pretend that's "flexibility".  It's not. 

[marigolds]

This is off the topic of the thread, but cityprof's point about "mission creep" is so true.  I teach at a school like Cityprof's and, yes, we are expected to do research--and we do.  There are full professors who have been here for aons and have never published a thing, but those days are long gone.  Now we expect even our new hires to have some publications. 

Okay, I have to ring in with snowbound and cityprof - I'm not at a regional comprehensive masters, but one rung up (small doctoral program).  Yes, mission creep is an enormous problem.  And places with no research and very high teaching loads are incredibly unfriendly to new parents because the schedule is set in stone.  While the culture may be more family-friendly, the job duties themselves are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I teach 15 hours a week as do many people in my department once labs are factored in and our college is pretty good about letting people choose how to set up those 15 hours. 

Yes, but your child won't chose those 15 hours as hours during which he won't throw up at school.  The school district doesn't chose those 15 hours as hours during which they will never celebrate "Postmans Day" and leave you scrambling for child care.  The water mains on the way to school don't chose those 15 hours as 15 hours during which they'll never break, closing school at the last minute.

You have a stay at home husband, so you probably aren't feeling the crunch of what happens when the best laid plans all fall to crap on a teaching day.  (Or worse, a lab day for which you have  three sessions - so just canceling is a brutal option).  But I've been ripping my hair out here.

You aren't wrong, Macaroon, but I cannot think of a single job that has a consistent paycheck that doesn't require some mandatory hours of work where the kid cannot come. 

Yup.  HOWEVER, in comparison to an RU/VH, where you could almost always work from home, a 4/4 load is more challenging.  And it IS more difficult than a "real job".  The 14 week semester is absolutely brutal.  How often do we tell students that they need to drop because life has gotten in the way?  We're not as easily afforded that luxury.  At SLACs, too, there isn't often another person that could cover your class in any meaningful way.   I missed far less class than any of my students when my grandmother died. 

A couple of my "mom" friends have gotten fired because the poop hit the fan right at the time they started a new job, and they couldn't take the time off that they needed.  However, they aren't in a national-sized job market like we are, and they were able to quickly find work elsewhere.  Can we do that?  Not really.  My colleagues and I are setting our children up, sick, in our offices on air mattresses.  Don't pretend that's "flexibility".  It's not. 

I think you're right, macaroon--it is a FAR more flexible, workable schedule for familie when one's spouse also has a flexible schedule and/or works from home.  That is our setup, and it works great 95% of the time.  But if Mistergolds worked w 9-5, nd if we didn't have other family nearby as backup in a real emergency, I'm not sure how we wod make it work around my classes.  We simply can't call in sick unless we are literally on our deathbeds.

[onthefringe]

I'm a bit on both sides here. I agree that academia (even high teaching load academia) is overall pretty flexible compared with things like being in litigation law or something, but of course, many kinds of law pay better...
There are frequently ways to do the type of juggling that Polly describes, which would be completely unacceptable in most other jobs. And I'm not sure we do ourselves a lot of favors with the "academia is sooo hard" message, because in my overall experience, it's actually pretty family friendly (and I'm in a lab based science, so I can't work much or as effectively from home on my research).

On the other hand, I'm going to personally hunt down and shoot the next school administrator who declares a snow delay. Snow cancellations we can deal with, snow delays are much harder, because my husband and I each work 35 minutes away from where our daughter goes to school. Cancellations, she comes in with one of us. Delays, one of us needs to stay home until 11:00, interfering with someone's morning class.

In emergencies, we've used one of those services that can provide emergency sitters (with background checks and everything). They're expensive, but worth it sometimes when dueling schedules raise their heads.

[britmom]

I'm a bit on both sides here. I agree that academia (even high teaching load academia) is overall pretty flexible compared with things like being in litigation law or something, but of course, many kinds of law pay better...
There are frequently ways to do the type of juggling that Polly describes, which would be completely unacceptable in most other jobs. And I'm not sure we do ourselves a lot of favors with the "academia is sooo hard" message, because in my overall experience, it's actually pretty family friendly (and I'm in a lab based science, so I can't work much or as effectively from home on my research).

On the other hand, I'm going to personally hunt down and shoot the next school administrator who declares a snow delay. Snow cancellations we can deal with, snow delays are much harder, because my husband and I each work 35 minutes away from where our daughter goes to school. Cancellations, she comes in with one of us. Delays, one of us needs to stay home until 11:00, interfering with someone's morning class.

In emergencies, we've used one of those services that can provide emergency sitters (with background checks and everything). They're expensive, but worth it sometimes when dueling schedules raise their heads.

As I think someone said upthread, it gets harder when only one of you has a flexible schedule. My husband works 8am-5pm, no chance of working at home, end of story. The danger is that the flexible one ends up covering more than their fair share of emergencies as, in theory, nobody will notice. My husband and I have a very fair system established, which means we're pretty much 50:50 when it comes to nursery runs, sick days, doctors appointments. (In fact, my husband is currently taking more than his fair share to allow me to push on with my research.)

Going back to my 'understanding' colleagues: I think a couple of them believe that I try to look after the kids whilst working at home.  I've had 3 people ask me how I manage to do this.  They know my husband works full time so I'm lost as to why they think this would be the case. (My answer has always been 'they're not at home'. I've been tempted to add a 'duh' at the end.) I sometimes wonder what's going on inside their heads. (Note: not all child-free colleagues are like this, just the idiotic ones.)

[onthefringe]

I'm a bit on both sides here. I agree that academia (even high teaching load academia) is overall pretty flexible compared with things like being in litigation law or something, but of course, many kinds of law pay better...
There are frequently ways to do the type of juggling that Polly describes, which would be completely unacceptable in most other jobs. And I'm not sure we do ourselves a lot of favors with the "academia is sooo hard" message, because in my overall experience, it's actually pretty family friendly (and I'm in a lab based science, so I can't work much or as effectively from home on my research).

On the other hand, I'm going to personally hunt down and shoot the next school administrator who declares a snow delay. Snow cancellations we can deal with, snow delays are much harder, because my husband and I each work 35 minutes away from where our daughter goes to school. Cancellations, she comes in with one of us. Delays, one of us needs to stay home until 11:00, interfering with someone's morning class.

In emergencies, we've used one of those services that can provide emergency sitters (with background checks and everything). They're expensive, but worth it sometimes when dueling schedules raise their heads.

As I think someone said upthread, it gets harder when only one of you has a flexible schedule. My husband works 8am-5pm, no chance of working at home, end of story. The danger is that the flexible one ends up covering more than their fair share of emergencies as, in theory, nobody will notice. My husband and I have a very fair system established, which means we're pretty much 50:50 when it comes to nursery runs, sick days, doctors appointments. (In fact, my husband is currently taking more than his fair share to allow me to push on with my research.)

Going back to my 'understanding' colleagues: I think a couple of them believe that I try to look after the kids whilst working at home.  I've had 3 people ask me how I manage to do this.  They know my husband works full time so I'm lost as to why they think this would be the case. (My answer has always been 'they're not at home'. I've been tempted to add a 'duh' at the end.) I sometimes wonder what's going on inside their heads. (Note: not all child-free colleagues are like this, just the idiotic ones.)

Yes, I see your point about the potential for imbalance, and I think my husband and I are blessed that we both have relatively flexible jobs. It's presumably harder, though, if neither person has a flexible job, so I still think academia is making a pretty good showing. The thing that seems most "academia specific" to me is that so many of us end up really far away from any family, so we have to build our support networks from scratch. And I'm way too introverted for that to be a pleasant process for me. Luckily (?) my kid is an extrovert, so she's done some network building for us.

Since I can't do research at home, my version of your second paragraph is "But it's a snow day. How can you be here? Is your husband babysitting?"

I usually don't launch a diatribe about the use of the word "babysitting" with references to fathers, and just say "I won rock paper scissors, so he's home with her today". But I'm sometimes tempted to say "We taught the cats to use the microwave. They're watching her today"

[unoriginal]

I'm a bit on both sides here. I agree that academia (even high teaching load academia) is overall pretty flexible compared with things like being in litigation law or something, but of course, many kinds of law pay better...
There are frequently ways to do the type of juggling that Polly describes, which would be completely unacceptable in most other jobs. And I'm not sure we do ourselves a lot of favors with the "academia is sooo hard" message, because in my overall experience, it's actually pretty family friendly (and I'm in a lab based science, so I can't work much or as effectively from home on my research).

On the other hand, I'm going to personally hunt down and shoot the next school administrator who declares a snow delay. Snow cancellations we can deal with, snow delays are much harder, because my husband and I each work 35 minutes away from where our daughter goes to school. Cancellations, she comes in with one of us. Delays, one of us needs to stay home until 11:00, interfering with someone's morning class.

In emergencies, we've used one of those services that can provide emergency sitters (with background checks and everything). They're expensive, but worth it sometimes when dueling schedules raise their heads.

As I think someone said upthread, it gets harder when only one of you has a flexible schedule. My husband works 8am-5pm, no chance of working at home, end of story. The danger is that the flexible one ends up covering more than their fair share of emergencies as, in theory, nobody will notice. My husband and I have a very fair system established, which means we're pretty much 50:50 when it comes to nursery runs, sick days, doctors appointments. (In fact, my husband is currently taking more than his fair share to allow me to push on with my research.)

Going back to my 'understanding' colleagues: I think a couple of them believe that I try to look after the kids whilst working at home.  I've had 3 people ask me how I manage to do this.  They know my husband works full time so I'm lost as to why they think this would be the case. (My answer has always been 'they're not at home'. I've been tempted to add a 'duh' at the end.) I sometimes wonder what's going on inside their heads. (Note: not all child-free colleagues are like this, just the idiotic ones.)

Yes, I see your point about the potential for imbalance, and I think my husband and I are blessed that we both have relatively flexible jobs. It's presumably harder, though, if neither person has a flexible job, so I still think academia is making a pretty good showing. The thing that seems most "academia specific" to me is that so many of us end up really far away from any family, so we have to build our support networks from scratch. And I'm way too introverted for that to be a pleasant process for me. Luckily (?) my kid is an extrovert, so she's done some network building for us.

Since I can't do research at home, my version of your second paragraph is "But it's a snow day. How can you be here? Is your husband babysitting?"

I usually don't launch a diatribe about the use of the word "babysitting" with references to fathers, and just say "I won rock paper scissors, so he's home with her today". But I'm sometimes tempted to say "We taught the cats to use the microwave. They're watching her today"

Or:

"It's a snow day?  Oops!"

In my life, snow day meant kids at work.  But the older one is old enough and very responsible, so these days, the older one watches the younger one at home on snow days (which are rare) and we just cut the face-time hours short.  Another reason why I schedule my classes to mostly be in the mornings.  We definitely are the lucky, two flexible jobs couple.  We also have no family support at all, and although we have plenty of community support now, we had none when we were new in town with a newborn, so I know (and don't miss) that life. 

[docmama]

It seems like I have a different constellation of characteristics than anyone else who has offered a perspective, so I'll chime in.  I had my first child in graduate school between completing coursework and defending the dissertation proposal.  My advisor as well as the department head wanted to give me some time to stay home with my child, so when my advisor planned coverage for classes during her pre-tenure leave, I wasn't offered any of them.  What they hadn't considered was that I would then have no independently- taught courses on my CV when going on the job market. I had to beg them to reconsider.  I concur-- even the attempt to be supportive of families can ultimately result in unintended and damaging consequences. 

For the past two years, I have taught at a masters level program in a SLAC (five courses a year spread over three quarters). I had my second child ten months after starting my position and my maternity leave was my research quarter--  not ideal, but vastly more leave than my sister was eligible for at her staff position in a university.   Much like Polly_mer's school, ongoing employment is less related to publications and more to community-based programming/outreach (no tenure, but a series of renewable contracts).  My husband is a great father, but he works an 8-5 position an hour away from our home and has no flexibility in his schedule. 

The lower expectations for research at my college really do make this a pretty supportive position for parenting small children.  My husband cannot help much during the week around the house, but I think the more frustrating thing for him is that he is away much of the time our girls are awake.  Essentially, we don't get more time together as a family, but my children get more time with one parent than they would if I was in another line of work.