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[copper]

Reading this thread, it occurred to me that the questions "what do you want" and "how do I get an A" are different.

What I want is:
1.  Something I can grade rapidly and accurately. (clear sentences, neat handwriting, show-your-work, etc.)
2.  Something that lets me efficiently diagnose what difficulties, if any, they have in understanding. (do they not understand how to pull information out of a problem to apply an appropriate equation? Or do they not know how to do logs on their calculator?)
3.  Did I mention neat handwriting? That stays in the space allotted and doesn't curl around the margins of three exam pages?
4.  For them to not make the task more complex than it is.

This amounts to me telling them two things in particular: make sure you take the time to communicate as clearly as you can, so I can evaluate your actual understanding, and don't bury the answer in a bunch of extraneous information.  If you include extraneous information, you've shown you don't really understand the problem.

But I don't think this approach would help Polly in the least.  I think Polly wants them to demonstrate some degree of self-sufficiency and to accept primary responsibility for their own educations.  It's possible that I would say that frankly, without sugar-coating it.

On the "I'll check with my friends" issue, I have a written policy on that.  I say that I try to grade uniformly across all papers/exams.  If, after comparing with friends you think I haven't done that, turn in both exams with a written explanation of where you think there's a discrepancy, and I will adjust whichever grade was done in error, or provide a written explanation of why they were different.  In all my years, I've gotten exactly zero complaints.

--Cu

[oldadjunct]

One thing I do is that I will not see them until they have made an attempt at writing something. So, if I get a "what do you want" question. I ask them, "what have you done?" If the reply is nothing, then I have nothing to talk to them about-- I tell them in class I'm always happy to look and talk to them about their assignment, their idea, whatever. But, they have to first make an attempt, and then they have to ask a specific question (not, "is this okay?" "what do you want?" etc.). This applies for other kinds of homeworks as well. Try first, read first, make an attempt and then ask a specific question.

This sterling advice deserves far more that a +1!

Some students make confusion their allies.  But there is hope.  This past week I reviewed the three main concepts thus far (listed on the board, reviewed the printed assignment, and then proceeded to show how to apply each of the three items on the board to the brief assignment in their hands.  "Any questions?," I ask.  Student A asks, how do I get an "A"?  Blinking but smiling, I say, "It's on the board, do this with that, that with this other part, and finish up with that third thing."  We are talking about a single page paper, BTW.  Student A says, "You haven't answered my question."  Student B looks up and says, "He just did."  Quiet chuckles ripple through the room.

[polly_mer]

This amounts to me telling them two things in particular: make sure you take the time to communicate as clearly as you can, so I can evaluate your actual understanding, and don't bury the answer in a bunch of extraneous information.  If you include extraneous information, you've shown you don't really understand the problem.

But I don't think this approach would help Polly in the least.

Based on recommendations I got from these fora on other matters, I now do exercises to make that point.  That has helped with the people who come to me from very bad school systems who may not have experienced classes taught by people who knew the material instead of merely checking boxes that the proper vocabulary words show up in the answer.  You're right, though, that that isn't the problem about which I am currently asking.

I think Polly wants them to demonstrate some degree of self-sufficiency and to accept primary responsibility for their own educations.  It's possible that I would say that frankly, without sugar-coating it.

Well, I have said that, repeatedly.  I hand out articles and make students discuss.  I still see severe ducking of responsibility and thought I'd ask if anyone had any magical words.

Polly, clearly you did something awful in a former life and this is how the universe is getting you to atone.

Oh, I don't think that's true.  The grubbing sounds bad, but now that I've grown accustomed to it, I have ways of dealing.  However, I do get tired of people repeating the mantra that a well-constructed rubric will eliminate grubbing since that is not my experience nor is it the experience of anyone I've met who teaches the kind of classes I do. 

What the rubric does is allow me to say, "I'll be happy to regrade your assignment after you have filled out the form with an objective, written case including point-by-point reference to the rubric."  That method has nearly eliminated the number of regrade requests I get.  I hear a lot of whining that I can ignore, but only people with what-I-consider-genuine cases go to the trouble of filling out the paperwork.

[moodymoodie]

Oh, my rubrics don't include any numbers and thus no such calculations. I just have "A level" column, "B level" columns, etc. with a row for each criteria. So for example, if I'm evaluating "MLA Format," the A-level column would say something like "Virtually no errors in MLA format," the B column would say "Minor errors in MLA format", the C column would say "May contain errors in format, but source information is clear", D-level would say "Some attempt to cite properly, source information sometimes unclear" and F-level would say "No attempt to cite or all source information unclear."

And then I have a row for every other evaluation point I'm using, such as "Thesis", "Organization", etc. They aren't equally weighted. "Details/Evidence" would be heavily weighted whereas "Title" would be lightly weighted.

Then I look at the the marked-up rubric and holistically assign a grade. So if most stuff is in the A-column, than the student gets an A or an A-. If the student has some A-level qualities and some C-level qualities, it gets a B. Granted, it's highly subjective, but the rubric gives it an air of objectivity. It's a Jedi mind trick.

That is exactly, word-for-word, how I set things up and mark student work, and seeing someone else (who clearly knows what they're doing) articulate it, is completely thrilling. Thank you, zuzu!

[zuzu_]

Oh, my rubrics don't include any numbers and thus no such calculations. I just have "A level" column, "B level" columns, etc. with a row for each criteria. So for example, if I'm evaluating "MLA Format," the A-level column would say something like "Virtually no errors in MLA format," the B column would say "Minor errors in MLA format", the C column would say "May contain errors in format, but source information is clear", D-level would say "Some attempt to cite properly, source information sometimes unclear" and F-level would say "No attempt to cite or all source information unclear."

<snip>

But the issue in this thread is "what do you want?" questions. In my rubric, it's painfully clear what you need to do to get an "A", "B", etc., hence virtually no vague "what do you want" questions.

Oh, Zuzu_, the complaints I get for my rubrics that look just like that!  That's a common prompt for "Well then, I just don't know what you want.  What do you mean, 'Minor MLA errors'?  What's the cut-off between 'virtually no' and 'minor'?  Is it three?  Four?  Give me a number.  Oh, and I'll check with my friends since my friend X had one more error circled than I did, but I got a lower grade.  What's the deal with that?  How did I get a lower mark in that column, huh?"

I get dozens of these things every term.  However, that's an improvement over the dozens of dozens before the rubrics.

Oh well. I guess it won't work for everyone. Maybe it's because I'm in English, or maybe it's because of my CC student population.

[polly_mer]

My bet is population.  My engineering students don't care a whit about rubrics.  My students who aren't education majors see that kind of rubric as useful and seldom pick at it. 

However, those education majors, for any rubric that isn't something like "2 points for putting a name on the paper, 2 points for listing both red and green baskets in the discussion, 2 points for having a page of discussion, 1 point for half a page of discussion" are quick with the "what do you want?  This isn't clear.  How am I supposed to function with such nebulous guidelines?" responses.

Interestingly, when I make those education majors grade essays I wrote as exercises, the students don't have any written rubric at all, yet they slapped grades on essays when only given an instruction like "Grade each essay from 0 (terrible) to 5 (great)".  Those grades were consistent across the class.  My students are not amused when I point out that situation.

[prof_cj]

Oh, my rubrics don't include any numbers and thus no such calculations. I just have "A level" column, "B level" columns, etc. with a row for each criteria. So for example, if I'm evaluating "MLA Format," the A-level column would say something like "Virtually no errors in MLA format," the B column would say "Minor errors in MLA format", the C column would say "May contain errors in format, but source information is clear", D-level would say "Some attempt to cite properly, source information sometimes unclear" and F-level would say "No attempt to cite or all source information unclear."

<snip>

But the issue in this thread is "what do you want?" questions. In my rubric, it's painfully clear what you need to do to get an "A", "B", etc., hence virtually no vague "what do you want" questions.

Yeah, mine do the same nitpicking, and I'm in English too. "But I covered everything and what do you mean by 'MLA issues' anyway?"


Oh, Zuzu_, the complaints I get for my rubrics that look just like that!  That's a common prompt for "Well then, I just don't know what you want.  What do you mean, 'Minor MLA errors'?  What's the cut-off between 'virtually no' and 'minor'?  Is it three?  Four?  Give me a number.  Oh, and I'll check with my friends since my friend X had one more error circled than I did, but I got a lower grade.  What's the deal with that?  How did I get a lower mark in that column, huh?"

I get dozens of these things every term.  However, that's an improvement over the dozens of dozens before the rubrics.

Oh well. I guess it won't work for everyone. Maybe it's because I'm in English, or maybe it's because of my CC student population.