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[daow80]

Hi, I'm in biochemistry, and I was wondering for people in science, how many faculty positions did you apply to when you were looking for jobs?  I feel bad asking my references for so many letters all the time and some of them don't want to use interfolio.  Is it reasonable to apply to 20 positions? 

[bruceleroy]

I have applied for at least 60 and I'm still applying in mechanical engineering. However, it is the norm in my field to supply a 'list of references' that the SC can chose to contact. I am still looking and it's possible I'm doing it wrong but 20 sounds like a low number to me.

[sagit]

I have applied for at least 60 and I'm still applying in mechanical engineering. However, it is the norm in my field to supply a 'list of references' that the SC can chose to contact. I am still looking and it's possible I'm doing it wrong but 20 sounds like a low number to me.

This has been discussed extensively on the fora.  Do a search on "Zharkov's Law" for more information.

[glowdart]

I have applied for at least 60 and I'm still applying in mechanical engineering. However, it is the norm in my field to supply a 'list of references' that the SC can chose to contact. I am still looking and it's possible I'm doing it wrong but 20 sounds like a low number to me.

This has been discussed extensively on the fora.  Do a search on "Zharkov's Law" for more information.

This.  And then talk to your advisor about norms in your discipline. 

And feel no guilt about asking people to write letters.  If you can use Interfolio and if that's normal for your discipline, it takes the guesswork out of the equation and does make life easier all around, but if it isn't normal to use it or another dossier service in your discipline, then don't.  Part of your goal as a job applicant is to show that you understand professional and disciplinary norms.  Your writers might not want to use it because it isn't the norm in your discipline, or they might not be comfortable with the electronic aspect, or they might want to individually tweak letters.  Whatever the reason, if your writers don't want to use it, then they have tacitly agreed to writing however many letters you need. 

[ruralguy]

At a bare minimum, apply to anything you think you'd like, which of course could be zero, or 100! But if there ARE 100 you think you could see yourself in, I see no reason not to apply, as long as you tailor your applications appropriately and apply to appropriate positions (that is, not way way out of your field, etc.).

That being said, when I did my concentrated applying over 2 years or so [this was 13 years ago], I'd say I applied to about 20 places each year, and there may have only been less than twice that many total (about 10 would have been either too much of a strecth in terms of competitiveness, or too much of stretch in terms of discipline). I eventually got the TT position where I had  been a VAP, and then still applied to a couple of places each year until about tenure time (that was a much more selective process).

So, start with Zharkov's Law, then shave down if there just aren't that many positions to apply to, or if any are just something you would never ever take if offered (for whatever reason). Also, you can go over and above ZL if there are MORE positions than ZL implies, and you wouldn't mind applying to them.



Don't feel guilty about letters. First all, the letters are very similar for most places. Secondly, its our job! (in my case, literally. Writing letters of reference is actually one of the stated "miscellanious expected tasks" in our handbook).

[fedscholar]

Thankfully, I am seeing a pattern where most of the applications ask for names of references. That way they are not juggling 100+ application packages. If you make the first cut, then they request letters. So, I am just saying not every single application requires letters up front. I know how you feel about letter fatigue from your refs. But you need to be prepared to do considerably more than 20 in most fields.

[drnobody]

My field sometimes asks for letters and sometimes only the list. It's about 50/50. I hate asking too, but for the times it's appropriate, I have three referees who've written recent generic, but good, letters I could send. Sometimes that's not ideal, but a dossier service isn't the norm in my area, and many ask me to upload or send the letters so we all know it's not going to be confidential. A few ask they be sent from the referees and if those are really good matches for me, I do it. That said, I am applying to anything I can imagine doing in a place I'd be willing to move. Number is irrelevant. If it fits, apply.

[leobloom]

In my mainstream STEM field I got wind of 200+ applicants for a position. There was no way I could have reached Zharkov's number , at least not now; I still got very close to 100 (so my "figure of merit" Z is about 0.5), most of them for TT jobs, and the percentage of responses sucks big time. I've had more luck in my interdisciplinary subfield, where 5+ postdoc years are still not the norm.
I'm also facing the issue of automated LORs from my references, but at least I took a full month of break from applications around winter holidays (I applied ahead of time for whatever was on the table with deadlines up to February 1.) My postdoc advisor even said at one point that he was afraid to check his e-mail because of that, but then he rationalized: "we have to". I'm examining the Interfolio approach for the next year, if I won't land anything this year.

[mleok]

I am eternally grateful that math jobs in the US primarily go through the AMS Mathjobs.org website, which allows me to upload a single letter, which my graduate students and postdocs can then use to apply to their heart's content.

When I was applying, my postdoc department's administrative staff would collect the letters from my references, and then duplicate it and send it out as a single packet to all the positions I applied to, and my advisor's secretary did something similar as well.

[quasihumanist]

I am eternally grateful that math jobs in the US primarily go through the AMS Mathjobs.org website, which allows me to upload a single letter, which my graduate students and postdocs can then use to apply to their heart's content.

While I support Mathjobs.org and have been very grateful for it as an applicant, it is not so true that math jobs in the US primarily go through this website.  While most R1 and top-tier SLAC departments do indeed use Mathjobs to collect its applications (and not just to advertise its jobs), its adoption among other types of institutions is significantly less common.

It would be instructive to see what percentage of departments interviewing at the Joint Mathematics Meetings Employment Center actually accept applications on Mathjobs.  (For non-mathematicians - usually only non-R1 departments interview at the JMM; most R1 departments make campus interview lists without preliminary interviews.)

[mleok]

While I support Mathjobs.org and have been very grateful for it as an applicant, it is not so true that math jobs in the US primarily go through this website.  While most R1 and top-tier SLAC departments do indeed use Mathjobs to collect its applications (and not just to advertise its jobs), its adoption among other types of institutions is significantly less common.

I stand corrected, you're right that I'm primarily focusing on the R1 and Selective LAC departments, since that's where my postdocs are primarily applying to, but certainly the smaller schools are less uniform about using mathjobs.org.

In a sense, the use of mathjobs.org is a double edged sword, particularly for small departments, since the ease of submitting an application through mathjobs results in a dramatic increase in the number of applications one receives, but it doesn't necessarily increase the number of serious applications by the same factor...

[polly_mer]

Hi, I'm in biochemistry, and I was wondering for people in science, how many faculty positions did you apply to when you were looking for jobs? 

I've got 60 applications out since July and I'm in a chemistry-related field.

Is it reasonable to apply to 20 positions? 

Well, it depends.  Your letter writers should not balk at sending twenty letters, especially if you make it easy by sending a list of letters with deadline in the next month or so.  Banging out ten letters for related jobs for one protege is half an hour's work for me if the addresses are right in front of me and my mentors have told me something similar.  People generally write one letter and then perhaps do a minor tweak for a particular school.  This is part of the mentoring job and it's not a problem.

However, I am worried about someone who is applying for biochemistry jobs who is thinking of only submitting 20 applications.  That number seems a little low for the number of openings and the number of applicants.  While you only need one application to hit, your chances are better if you submit to more places and have more opportunities to get the right fit. 

Another potential problem is that you seem very innocent of the job search process.  I strongly recommend that you have your mentors look over your job search materials before you submit the first few to ensure that you're on the right track.  You probably should also have someone help with a practice interview (the career services people often do this) as well as practice teaching demos and research talks.  You seem in desperate need of mentoring and you need that before any of the applications will pay off.

[polly_mer]

I should also mention that quality of application will trump quantity.  Sending out 1000 crummy applications will be less likely to yield an offer than sending out 10 well-crafted applications for positions that are looking exactly for your specialty in biochemistry with the classes you want to teach and the kind of school for which your background best suits you.

Biochemistry (and chemistry in general) has enough applicants that you likely won't get that insane-long-shot using a generic application.  However, you likely can get a position that is 85% you (no one is ever 100% perfect fit) if you tailor your materials.  Never lie, but highlight different aspects of yourself.  The application materials are sales documents; make sure you are selling yourself in the right way to the given audience.

[ruralguy]

I can't overstate appropriateness of application.

Why apply to every R1 opening if, say, you only have 1 publication? (I'm speaking of a STEM field now)

Why apply to SLAC's if you see teaching as a cursory actitivty?

You can significantly trim numbers if you don't apply to places where you have no shot, or where yoy know you would hate the position or location.

I am against the dart throwing approach. ZL is really just meant as a rough approximation BEFORE you start to THINK about specific applications.

[atlchemist]

I've got 60 applications out since July and I'm in a chemistry-related field.

I am in chemistry and have submitted eight applications this year. I am not willing to move far away from my husband and would not be competitive for an R1 or top SLAC position anyway. To each his own.