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[hereforavisit]

I've been offered an all-research, multiple-year, postdoc position on a large grant in the UK.  I'm debating the pros and cons of taking this position.  I'm hoping people in my field (pure math) would provide some advice--people in other fields should also feel free to chime in.

Pros:
It's a great project--natural fit with my own research (completed and ongoing).  Great PI and great group in my field at this university.

Cons:
The job is fixed-term and I'll have to find a permanent position afterwards.

Background:
My PhD is 2008--I've done a postdoc and, now, I'm in a 1-year VAP.  I have 4 papers in reasonable journals.  I'm looking for a tenure-track job in the US at an R1, but haven't gotten any interviews here in the US and the hiring cycle in math--I think--is half-way over.  (I've also applied to comparable positions overseas.)

Goal:
My goal is to find a tenure-track job at an R1 in the US (or comparable position overseas).

Questions:
Would taking this position further or hinder my goal (especially if I want to be in the US)?  If I take the position and want to achieve my goal, what things must I do--or can it even be (feasibly) done?

[hegemony]

So really the choice is a multi-year postdoc or unemployment?  I can't think why you wouldn't take it.  You're always in a better position applying for other things when you're in a good job.  And this looks like a good job to me.

[hereforavisit]

Good point about unemployment/taking the position.  The other thing I could do is wait for the rest of the market to finish and hope that I get an offer for a tt position.  There is also the likelihood of my VAP renewing.

[miss_jane_marple]

What an interesting situation. You have already identified a long-term goal, which is very helpful, although people do occasionally change their minds down the road. My suggestion is to look ahead to the end of the time-limited position (three years? five?) and decide what you would have to have on your CV to be an excellent candidate for the goal position. One thing to consider is whether your PhD is from a place that helps, hinders, or has little appreciable effect on your search for a TT slot, and the same question for where you are now and the university of the postdoc. Another thing to consider is how your research productivity will be different whether you go for the multi-year postdoc or the renewed VAP. It sounds as though the great PI and group may have a lot to contribute there. What has happened to other people who worked as postdocs for this PI? Have any of them achieved the goal you have in mind? Do you have sufficient teaching experience now to be considered for a TT faculty position, or would you need more experience with highly positive evaluations? Is there teaching in the postdoc?

Good luck and best wishes, whatever you decide.

[quasihumanist]

My feeling is that the research only postdoc helps you for R1 positions but hurts you for non-R1 academic positions.  Are you R1 or bust?  How realistic is getting an R1 job?  (What papers do you have in the pipeline, and does 'reasonable journal' mean Journal of Graph Theory, Journal of Algebra, Advances in Mathematics, or Duke?)

Assuming you haven't been contacted for interviews this year, you probably won't have any.  It's some R2s and SLACs that occasionally have late running searches; R1 departments tend to be on the ball, and they also tend to be willing to have more adjuncts for another year rather than run a late search without the best people in the pool.

[hereforavisit]

Thanks for your well-wishes and helpful points.  As for teaching, there won't be any at the proposed postdoc, but I've taught two courses every semester for 8 years.  My teaching and research records seem (to me at least) to be comparable to those people getting interviews here in the US.  The main problem in my field is that, for each of the large R1s, there are 500+ applicants for each tt opening--at the large R1 that I'm at now, that number may be 600+ this year.  (I should note that, in my field of pure math, many, if not most, departments do not specify a subfield or specify very broad ones.)

[hereforavisit]

@quasihumanist,

Good points--I have the same feeling about the market as you do.  I'm starting to also have the same feeling about the proposed postdoc:  it'll help with a R1 (type) job somewhere in the world.

[quasihumanist]

This varies a lot by subfield, and it depends on what you mean by 'reasonable journal', but my suspicion is that four papers at four years post PhD is not quite competitive for an R1 job in pure maths these days.

[doctorcat]

I am not in maths, but I would take the post-doc. Here is my reasoning:

The economy is not looking to improve soon (though it is worse in Europe and you may want to really nail them down for your contract so you won't lose your job).

The numbers you provide (re: applications/job ratio) for pure maths sound terrible. 

You will have international experience, and who knows this may lead to better things for R1 in the future (when things may be better for the economy).

The UK is a nice place to live. Free healthcare and a good social system. Also, the rest of Europe is right there.

Oh, I guess the quality of the school matters too, but I'm assuming it's a pretty good one.

You could ask that they let you teach a class here or there, to keep your skills up in that area.

Congratulations on the offer!

[hereforavisit]

Point taken, quasihumanist--I should try to strengthen my CV.

----

Thanks, doctorcat.  My salary would be completely from the grant, but I can offer to teach (but don't have to).

I really like the city that this university is in--and the UK, in general, is one of my favorite places both to visit and to visit on research (a big portion of my subfield is there and in the rest of Europe).  I would be pretty happy to live in this city.

[mleok]

I'm a tenured faculty member in mathematics at a R1, and given the quality of the applicants we're short listing, I don't think 4 papers in reasonable journals is going to cut it for an applicant with a 2008 PhD, unless by decent you mean an excellent journal, but not quite at the level of the Annals.

Look at the math jobs rumors wiki to get a sense of the research record of people getting interviews. In general, you need references from the leading researchers in your field who are willing to say that you are a rising star (or already a star) in your mathematical subfield.

[hereforavisit]

Thanks, mleok.  I know about the wiki and I also can guess that most R1s have already made their interview lists for this cycle.  As for journals, not Annals, Inventiones, JAMS, but within the next tier, if you think of the next tier as 10-15 journals, and (some) top journals for my subfield.  (I've gotten interviews, but not in the US.)

I have a few papers that I'm writing up now and will be ready for next year's cycle.  One of my concerns is that, as my PhD ages, no matter how good my research becomes I won't have a chance of landing a tt job at a research-type university--what do you think of this?  If I go and take this all-research postdoc, will I have a chance/increase my chances of doing this?

[quasihumanist]

Thanks, mleok.  I know about the wiki and I also can guess that most R1s have already made their interview lists for this cycle.  As for journals, not Annals, Inventiones, JAMS, but within the next tier, if you think of the next tier as 10-15 journals, and (some) top journals for my subfield.  (I've gotten interviews, but not in the US.)

I have a few papers that I'm writing up now and will be ready for next year's cycle.  One of my concerns is that, as my PhD ages, no matter how good my research becomes I won't have a chance of landing a tt job at a research-type university--what do you think of this?  If I go and take this all-research postdoc, will I have a chance/increase my chances of doing this?

I think you are not so far from being competitive, assuming you're not in a high publication rate subfield, so if the postdoc increases your research productivity rate, then your chances of a R1 TT increase, and if the postdoc doesn't increase your research productivity rate, then they don't.

People do get TTs at R1s after 2 multi-year postdocs as long as their publication rate is high enough.  (I haven't yet heard of 3 multi-year postdocs, but I think that more reflects the difficulty of getting a third postdoc as well as it being quite unlikely that someone could be not productive enough in their first two postdocs for an R1 TT but productive enough in their third to make up for it.)  As far as I can tell, there isn't an expiration date on your PhD - it's more that you are evaluated based on publications divided by years post PhD.

[hereforavisit]

Thanks, quasihumanist. I've also never heard of 3 or more multi-year postdocs in math.  It's good to hear that you know of a few mathematicians who had 2 multi-year postdocs.

[mleok]

To be honest, unless you're postdocing at Harvard or Princeton, four or five years past the PhD without an initial tenure track appointment probably means that you won't be competitive for a R1 position. Unless you resolve a long standing conjecture, it gets harder with each year past the third, particularly if you've never even been shortlisted for a position. If however, you've been shortlisted, but never received an offer, you at least have a research profile that is sufficiently distinguished on paper.

The only semi-common exceptions are assistant professors at Princeton or Chicago who do regularly transition to advanced tenure-track assistant professor or associate professor positions at slightly less highly ranked research institutions. If you're looking at non-R1s, then perhaps they would be more forgiving.