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[bodyelectric]

Hello fora,

I'm a long time lurker finally posting. So, before I start, thanks for helping me get through my MA with a small measure of grace!

I've been out of grad school for almost five years now, pursuing the practical side to my arts discipline. I'm contemplating applying to PhD programs that would start in 2013. (I know, I start things early) I've identified 13 schools that seem to be a good fit for the general area of research I'm interested in. I'm worried that this is really large number of reference letters for my references to write, especially for someone who has been out of school for quite a while.

What's the collective wisdom of the fora? Should I apply to all the schools, but perhaps spread the letter writing out over five references? Or should I narrow my selection down? I've read that its not a good idea to apply based on the research of one professor. Should I be looking for departments with two or more professors whose research interests intersect with mine?

Thank you in advance for any advice you might have.

PS. I know this is the moment where the fora usually refers the poster to Thomas Benton's work. I've read it and considered it carefully. I know I'll probably have to go back to my current life of juggling temping and teaching and my 'real' work after I've done a PhD. I won't go without funding and I think (and hope) five or six years working on something I love and a tiny, minuscule change at having a job being paid to do what I love is worth it.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

It is not a large number of letters to write, only a large number of envelopes to address.  Give them self-addressed stamped envelopes, and all is OK.

Oh, except that many grad schools now require the reference to log in and fill out a long form, often using drop-down menus.  Anyone who works at such a place, please complain to your graduate office. - DvF

[systeme_d_]

Writing 13 letters of rec for one student = writing one letter, and tweaking it if and when necessary.

Don't worry.  Just ask three folks from your MA program for letters.  And yes, apply to all 13 programs.

[polly_mer]

13 is not an absurd number of letters to write.  Ask my mentors who have sent more than 50 letters for my job searches.

Give addressed stamped envelopes, a copy of your CV, a copy of your personal statement/research interests/similar document, and a nice spreadsheet that has the programs, the due dates, and a point or two of special tweaking you would like mentioned if necessary.

People want to you to succeed and won't balk at 13 letters.

[totoro]

To me that is too many applications. I'd think 5-6 would be enough.

[polly_mer]

To me that is too many applications. I'd think 5-6 would be enough.

That depends on what the competition is like and how many people are typically accepted into a program.  I was scolded for not applying to more schools the first time I applied for graduate school since "everyone" knows that 10-20 applications is the norm in my fields.

[mleok]

13 is not an absurd number of letters to write.  Ask my mentors who have sent more than 50 letters for my job searches.

Oh, except that many grad schools now require the reference to log in and fill out a long form, often using drop-down menus.  Anyone who works at such a place, please complain to your graduate office. - DvF

I'm in mathematics, and the electronic application system, mathjobs.org, for postdoc and faculty jobs has really spoiled me. All it takes is for me to upload one letter, and I'm done with most of the letters for the postdocs I am supervising, and the ones which have their own system typically have the courtesy to only require that you upload a letter, as opposed to filling in some inane form ranking the applicant in terms of their percentile on a number of criteria.

In contrast, every graduate program, even when they use the same underlying HR management system, has their own form, and is much more of a pain to deal with than letters for job applications.

I don't break a sweat when my postdocs apply to 50-70 positions, but undergraduates applying to even 10 schools takes much more effort. I guess part of it is also that I have a far greater vested interest in seeing my graduate students and postdocs succeed on the job market than an undergraduate in one of my upper division classes. Not to mention that I write many more letters for undergraduates applying to graduate school.

[oldfullprof]

I applied to 50-70 out the PhD program, then about 15 every time I jumped after that.

[totoro]

Well, I only applied to two PhD programs. So I thought 5-6 was pretty generous.

[theblondeassassin]

bodyelectric, I'd try to cut down on the number of applications to look more focused. Go on some campus visits and interviews if you can. I'd be surprised if there were 13 programmes that could support your specific research interests (at least that would be true in my field).

Interesting question generally about writing reference letters. I'm apparently not a big applier myself.

Undergraduate: 2 applications; masters: 2; doctorate: 2.

Academic jobs: 1; 1; 4; 1.

I write on average 3-4 recommendations per student applying to masters or doctoral programmes; most of the jobs my students apply for take up recommendations only after shortlisting, which cuts down the number of letters. As long as they ask first, give enough notice, and provide me with a current vita, I don't mind writing as many as it takes.

 

[totoro]

bodyelectric, I'd try to cut down on the number of applications to look more focused. Go on some campus visits and interviews if you can. I'd be surprised if there were 13 programmes that could support your specific research interests (at least that would be true in my field).

Interesting question generally about writing reference letters. I'm apparently not a big applier myself.

Undergraduate: 2 applications; masters: 2; doctorate: 2.

Academic jobs: 1; 1; 4; 1.

I write on average 3-4 recommendations per student applying to masters or doctoral programmes; most of the jobs my students apply for take up recommendations only after shortlisting, which cuts down the number of letters. As long as they ask first, give enough notice, and provide me with a current vita, I don't mind writing as many as it takes.

You applied for only one academic job and got it the first time out? But you are in the UK aren't you? Advice will vary by country here I think. I applied to one undergrad program, 4 masters, and 2 PhD but since then job searches have involved 10+ applications. 25-30 would be a typical number until recently. This would yield me about 5 interviews and one job.

[theblondeassassin]

totoro, the UK is my current location, but my fourth country of residence. I did my doctoral studies in the US and got my first job from there. (Well, that's the simple version -- it's actually a lot more complicated but not very interesting.)

I am not much of an applier, though! I usually only apply if I'm specifically pressed to do so, and not always even then. Perhaps I'd have a more stellar career if I were more proactive (and less lazy).

I do think that unless it's a VERY popular potential area of doctoral study with loads of superstar advisors, the applicant needs to refine the topic or other aspects of study a bit more if there are 13 doctoral programmes that he or she would apply to (not could apply to). I'm not all that impressed when I get an email with the equivalent of "I'd like to study quantitative economics at PhD level -- will you supervise me?"

[polly_mer]

I do think that unless it's a VERY popular potential area of doctoral study with loads of superstar advisors, the applicant needs to refine the topic or other aspects of study a bit more if there are 13 doctoral programmes that he or she would apply to (not could apply to). I'm not all that impressed when I get an email with the equivalent of "I'd like to study quantitative economics at PhD level -- will you supervise me?"

On the other hand, I can think of twenty people at good programs who could supervise someone whose interests are molecular dynamics of the physical properties of alkanes.  Give me an hour and I could probably come up with fifty names of people at programs worth attending.

[pink_]

In my field (English), because admissions is ridiculously competitive it is typical for students to apply to 10 or so schools. If a student had identified 13, I'd be fine with it.

[seniorscholar]

In my field (English), because admissions is ridiculously competitive it is typical for students to apply to 10 or so schools. If a student had identified 13, I'd be fine with it.

Yup. We have between 150 and 200 applications annually, and admit 6-8 with full funding, though to gain those 6-8 acceptances we generally "admit" or "waitlist" about 40 people. (There are a large number of universities within commuting distance, and we're clearly the fallback school for people applying to at least 3 Ivies, plus those with a SO attending or applying to the five medical schools in the city.)