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[politico]

Here's the situation:

I graduated from a public state school in the plains with a degree in Econ and a ho-hum (B) GPA. Spent the last 3 years working in politics as a campaign staffer in my home state and the rest in Ohio. I'm about to do a really short gig in Mass., but I want to get out of this "industry" for a bunch of reasons that aren't really important. For the last 6+ months, I've taught ESL to international students at the university but it's a part-time job and I don't really see how I could make it a career (not sure I would want to either).

What I THINK I want to do is get into software development -- particularly doing what a buddy of mine does: making mobile apps for a small SF-based startup. I'm really drawn to the idea of software development because it provides a creative outlet. It's intellectually stimulating. The computing world has brought up some really interesting BIG questions that I would have fun pondering. I can see the products of my hard work in a tangible way. Also, I feel like my friend has a real skill, whereas I really dont... Also, I think the idea of working at a tech startup has a cool risk/reward dynamic to it.

The problem is I have little to zero coding experience. And unlike some of my econ colleagues in undergrad, I didn't take a ton of math classes (many of which dovetail nicely with CS coursework). To remedy this, I'm thinking about going back to my alma mater (which happens to be located in my hometown), taking the math and programming pre-reqs and then pursuing an MS in Computer Science or possibly an MIS. (While simultaneously teaching myself how to code in my sparetime).

I know that most software companies (particularly startups) don't care what piece of paper you have, but I'm worried that I will be missing some crucial basics if I teach myself how to code on the side. I'm afraid I need the math and the training in algorithms etc. Plus, having the piece of paper would mean that I could probably land a big box job if I can't find a place in silicon valley among the indie developers whose lives I envy very much. My friend and the people I spoke with out in SF recently told me that an MS in CS probably isn't necessary...It's the portfolio of work they look at, but I think they may be underestimating how valuable that math and theory can be. Why not get the piece of paper and start building a portfolio at the same time? I talked to the director of the CS dept and he suggested an MIS might be better for me -- that a CS masters might be overkill since you learn how to make a compiler and all that. I think having a deeper understanding of this field would be really cool though... (And who knows? I might want to pursue a PhD if it makes sense).

Right now, my alternatives are going to law school or finishing up my 20s with zero career direction. I don't see practicing law as something I could be passionate about. And while I applied to several schools in cool places, I've only been accepted to my alma mater. I have a pretty good idea what my life would be like if i decided to do that. One of the few practices I can envision that wouldn't make me miserable is to go in with the plan of getting out and hanging my shingle as a sole practitioner doing transactional stuff, probate, etc. (By no means intellectually "exciting," but better than participating in the white collar slavery that is much of the legal profession). Of course, I'm not even sure that plan is feasible given the glut of J.Ds and what I'm sure will be a considerable student loan burden upon graduation.

Or I can go back and work campaigns again... But that means kinda living as a gypsy for the rest of my 20s and 30s and working 70 hour weeks and then being unemployed for long spurts. Not to mention, my political experience thus far has made me a good bit cynical. There are a limited number of nonprof jobs and things I might be able to get into but I'm still not sure if I have a skill to offer besides being reasonable well-organized, a good communicator and a decent manager/motivator of ppl.

If you waded through all of that and have some insight to shed on whether a foray into CS grad school is a good/bad idea (or to share other life wisdom for that matter), please DO. Will be much appreciated, especially if you have experience as a CS grad student, professor, and/or software developer (but appreciated regardless).

Best,

politico

[greyscale]

Do you know if you like coding? Even if you haven't written much code, do you enjoy sitting and working out a logic puzzle for hours? Do you have any evidence that you'd be good at this or enjoy this? Tiny startups are usually looking for ninja coders - for the first year, they succeed or fail based mostly on the brains of their employees, as far as I can tell. Unlike 10 years ago, most of the startups now are not yet desperate for any warm body who can write a few scripts. They're still being very selective.

I am a biologist, not a software developer, but many of my friends are living the San Francisco mobile app startup lifestyle (writing that phrase makes me laugh, except that it really is a lifestyle). You're right, it's enviable, if you like intense work and intense fun. But that's more to do with the surroundings than the job, sometimes. Have you considered seeing if your skills and background would be valuable to a small startup looking for a management type? You sound like you'd be a good fit for that, with the campaign background.

(Also, SF is packed full of tiny startups making mobile apps. It's a fun world, but I can see the bubble building again, and I'm getting a sense of deja vu.)

[sciencegrad]

I'm not sure why you think a university would admit a student with no programming background into a master's CS program.  Also, if you're just looking to learn how to code, you don't need a degree in CS at all.  In fact, many CS people will tell you that the purpose of that degree isn't to learn how to program, but to instead learn about algorithms and their applications.

I've had a few courses in algorithms and some of them are pretty important and should be in any programmer's toolbox, but advanced courses are less practical for the kind of work done on mobile apps, I would imagine.  I would suggest taking some programming courses or pursuing an AS in CS at a community college just to test if you like the field.  I would bet that you have practically no possibility of being admitted to an MS program if you don't have an extensive mathematical background, at the very least.  And a CS department would be crazy to admit someone who doesn't have at least a few years of solid programming experience.

[politico]

I'm not sure why you think a university would admit a student with no programming background into a master's CS program.  Also, if you're just looking to learn how to code, you don't need a degree in CS at all.  In fact, many CS people will tell you that the purpose of that degree isn't to learn how to program, but to instead learn about algorithms and their applications.

I've had a few courses in algorithms and some of them are pretty important and should be in any programmer's toolbox, but advanced courses are less practical for the kind of work done on mobile apps, I would imagine.  I would suggest taking some programming courses or pursuing an AS in CS at a community college just to test if you like the field.  I would bet that you have practically no possibility of being admitted to an MS program if you don't have an extensive mathematical background, at the very least.  And a CS department would be crazy to admit someone who doesn't have at least a few years of solid programming experience.

Getting admitted into the MS program would require taking several undergrad pre-req courses BEFORE applying to the program (lots of math and a few programming classes). Yes, I understand that. I've done some homework on this. An AS in CS is something I hadn't considered though. Thanks.

Do you know if you like coding? Even if you haven't written much code, do you enjoy sitting and working out a logic puzzle for hours? Do you have any evidence that you'd be good at this or enjoy this? Tiny startups are usually looking for ninja coders - for the first year, they succeed or fail based mostly on the brains of their employees, as far as I can tell. Unlike 10 years ago, most of the startups now are not yet desperate for any warm body who can write a few scripts. They're still being very selective.

I am a biologist, not a software developer, but many of my friends are living the San Francisco mobile app startup lifestyle (writing that phrase makes me laugh, except that it really is a lifestyle). You're right, it's enviable, if you like intense work and intense fun. But that's more to do with the surroundings than the job, sometimes. Have you considered seeing if your skills and background would be valuable to a small startup looking for a management type? You sound like you'd be a good fit for that, with the campaign background.

(Also, SF is packed full of tiny startups making mobile apps. It's a fun world, but I can see the bubble building again, and I'm getting a sense of deja vu.)

I have only tinkered with Java, so I don't think that's a large enough sample size to judge whether I like it or not. Point taken. I do enjoy working on logic puzzles. Evidence that I would be good at this? No... none at all. Would I enjoy it? Well, yeah! But that's not really enough, I suppose.

Not really sure how to translate my campaign experience to a management position outside of the campaign world. The skills ought to translate somehow, but this is a struggle a lot of people I've worked with on campaigns deal with. You either double-down on candidate campaigns or you slowly get out of it and into some sort of nonprof or semi-related field. Gets easier to get out if you've been top management, I think. But that I have not been.

[tt_wannabe]

If software development is the thing you aspire towards, why not get a Masters in Software Engineering. There are several good ones (by school reputation) that are offered online, so you're current location may not matter, even if a MSE isn't offered near you. (Didn't mean to bring up the whole online discussion, but its an option you might consider.)

[polly_mer]

Take classes in programming and then see what you think.

Even just buying a book like Learn C++ in 21 Days would be a better first step than what you have proposed.

[zharkov]

An undergrad degree in econ is excellent preparation for an MBA.  (Even better than a  BSBA on my view.)  So you may want to consider that, and if you can get into a Businessweek top 30 program, just borrow the money and go.

A master's in a computer related field is not a bad idea, but those top jobs (like very well paid ap developers) go to the top people, who have (a) gone to good schools and (b) did well at those schools.  So it is not just a matter of "getting you ticket punched" by picking up a master's.

Depending on your BA school, could you go back and get a bachelor's in computer science (etc.) by going an additional year or so?  I recall working with an engineer who had received a bachelor's in physics, then returned to get a second bachelor's in engineering, so some schools do work that way. 

[polly_mer]

Depending on your BA school, could you go back and get a bachelor's in computer science (etc.) by going an additional year or so?  I recall working with an engineer who had received a bachelor's in physics, then returned to get a second bachelor's in engineering, so some schools do work that way. 

The math alone is going to be more than an extra year for a CS degree.  Many physics and engineering programs are close enough that a year (8-10 of the right classes) is not only possible, but feasible because of the shared prerequisites and corequisites.  But, without the math and some programming, econ to CS is going to be a huge leap--possibly bigger than English to history.

[zharkov]

Depending on your BA school, could you go back and get a bachelor's in computer science (etc.) by going an additional year or so?  I recall working with an engineer who had received a bachelor's in physics, then returned to get a second bachelor's in engineering, so some schools do work that way. 

The math alone is going to be more than an extra year for a CS degree.  Many physics and engineering programs are close enough that a year (8-10 of the right classes) is not only possible, but feasible because of the shared prerequisites and corequisites.  But, without the math and some programming, econ to CS is going to be a huge leap--possibly bigger than English to history.

Good point, although it depends on the econ program and on the student.  Some econ program are +/- applied math and econ students planning for grad study are typically pushed into a strong math and stats track.  (Say math through real analysis.) 

About the bachelor's vs. masters, I think that the bachelor's may make more sense, if most of the master's students would have entered with a bachelor's in comp sci (or etc).   The profs will assume a certain level of knowledge that they are not about to use class (or office hours time) to teach less prepared students.

I'm in a quant field and I recall a grad class where a term assignment (10%) was something like writing aprogram, in a language of the student's choice, to compute differential equations (or something like that).  There was no programming class in the curriculum, nor was it a formal entry requirement.  Students where just expected to know one.

[polly_mer]

You're not wrong, Zharkov, but

The problem is I have little to zero coding experience. And unlike some of my econ colleagues in undergrad, I didn't take a ton of math classes (many of which dovetail nicely with CS coursework).

This doesn't bode well for having the solid math background in either algorithms or logic.  Politico also mentions zero programming experience.  I have also been in similar situations of classes assigning programming projects with the expectation that students knew a relevant programming langange (Java is not going to be particularly useful for many of those projects.  C++, C, or Fortran would be better).  I can't imagine a program in MS CS or MIS that wouldn't expect students to be proficient in multiple languages and would expect students to be able to select an appropriate one.

[chromatic]

You should not enroll in a Masters of Computer Science program at this time. If you don't know any programming at all a MS program usually cannot teach you anything. A CS degree in many respects is a Math degree (But easier than a real Math degree). However, it is math that most people can only appreciate if they know how to program a computer. They won't teach you how to program a computer in a MS program. (and really will only teach you one language in a BS program, even though you need several languages to pass)

You are going to need to learn how to program first, before even thinking about applying to any Computer Sciecne Master's program. I would recommend finding something you enjoy and learning a programming language that will help you do that thing better. If you really want to develop Apps, maybe try Objective C.
After you know how to program, you should find a job programming. Only after you have been a programmer for a few years should you try to get into a CompSci Master's program.

As to what courses you should take, I would say none. They will probably teach you enough math. If you simply must some math classes, take Statistics, take Linear Algrabra, and take Set Theory. Also try to remember how logrithims work.

[sciencegrad]

You are going to need to learn how to program first, before even thinking about applying to any Computer Sciecne Master's program. I would recommend finding something you enjoy and learning a programming language that will help you do that thing better. If you really want to develop Apps, maybe try Objective C.
After you know how to program, you should find a job programming. Only after you have been a programmer for a few years should you try to get into a CompSci Master's program.

This is worth repeating.  You can get a job as a programmer without a degree in anything.  You will need a portfolio of your work to get your foot in the door, to be sure.  But learning to program is free and if you develop a passion for it, it can take you far.  A friend of mine in undergrad was doing a degree in electrical and computer engineering but had been programming for many years of his childhood.  He didn't like the structured nature of an engineering program, instead preferring to learn through experimentation.  He ended up dropping out after he made a very successful iPhone app and got a job with a start-up working on computer vision for mobile apps.

Programming has so many resources online and in book form that if you are truly dedicated, you will learn much faster on your own than in a classroom.

[oldadjunct]

OP. read the following as more encouraging as it may sound.  First, you don't come across as enamored of or even particularly good at academic settings.  You have an econ degree but dodged the tough math and even then came out with a hohum GPA.  Neither did you stretch yourself to do any programming while taking course work that likely would have encouraged you to at least dip into even preliminary Access back screen coding.

Here comes the encouraging part.  Maybe you should be focusing on getting a job that will expose you to and require that you process data in an underlying area that is fundamentally interesting to you.  In other words, never mind "apps" and focus instead on "apps about X" where "X" is something you care in a more fundamental way about.  Apps are only glasses.  What do you really truly want to fill those glasses with?

True story: son was less than a mediocre student. All he loved was being on the water.  While on the water (read Navy in this case) he found he needed to manipulate data about water temps  and then about ocean floor typography.  So he got good at manipulating data.  Then he got really good about managing databases for underwater pipelines.

Now, while still being head hunted to map ocean floors for oil companies,which will put him back on the water that he so much loves (that love affair includes +1k/day, he manages one of the nation's largest mass transit system's typographical databases.

My point here is that many of us bumble into expertise, and then retroactively validate that expertise by punching a card, called a degree.

[polly_mer]

My point here is that many of us bumble into expertise, and then retroactively validate that expertise by punching a card, called a degree.

Oldadjunct is right on the money here.  I am in technical fields and, yes, what often happens is people who aren't great students in their teens and twenties leave school, find their passions, and then become successful by following those passions.  Sometimes those people end up going back to school for classes because that's the fastest way to get what they want in terms of being capable of doing the next step.  Other times, those people just serve apprenticeships and work their way through life and interesting problems.

A degree in many cases simply certifies that someone is somewhat proficient in a given set of skills or body of knowledge.  However, often people can be proficient in those skills and knowledge in other ways.  Significant experience, even volunteer work or hobbies, will often be sufficient to get a job doing those things.  While companies are no longer accepting warm bodies who have seen a computer, many technical positions are filled by people who can do the job, not necessarily those who have an official degree.

[dale1]

I actually work in a computing academic unit and work with prospective MS students all the time.  Our program is in the Midwest, not highly ranked but pretty strong academically (faculty from top flight places, CAREER award winners, etc.)

Here is what most reputable programs likely require:

Math through calculus 1 and 2, prefer calculus-based statistics, linear algebra
Computing 1 and 2, such as courses in C, C++, Java.  We rarely use scripting languages you often see in the web or in apps, such as Jquery, JavaScript.  You'll also need significant courses such as discrete math, data structures and algorithms, computer architecture, and operating systems.  These are the theoretical courses that talk about the "why" not just the "what" or "how." 

Once you get through 2ish years of pre-requisites, you'll be pretty well prepared.