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[polly_mer]

I agree with the people who suggest investigating whether the candidate has a history of being spread too thin.  If the history supports being a very active person with a lot of plates successfully in the air, then hire the ambitious person.  If, however, history indicates someone with big plans, but no follow-through, then skip this person and keep looking.

[trulydewly]

I think the skepticism about this postdoc is more than a little unfair. Some facts:

Job market competitiveness: Hu has to think about what's going to happen after this postdoc finishes. Where will hu's CV be? Seems that the postdoc simply asked you questions with that in mind. Will the job allow hu do things adding value to that CV? Seems pragmatic to me.

Motivation: As you recognized, it seems that this postdoc is just inclined that way, to work hard. Sure, there are a lot of people who seem more easy-going that you might hire, but in the end cui bono? Not you. If you hire the 'over' ambitious postdoc, you'll no doubt end up with more co-authored publications and a grant.

Power: Maybe, and quite understandably, you're stuck with the idea that an ideal postdoc is someone to be told and led. Fine. But a postdoc who can generate, produce, create? In this climate? I think that's a better bet any day.

The postdoc was trying to impress you: Understandable. As well, you mention hu has publications of good quality/quantity. So hu walks the walk, not just talking it.

Btw I was never the kind of postdoc like the one you describe. I was fairly the opposite of what you write about this postdoc. Easy-going, not particularly ambitious, okay with being told what to do. Great for the supervisor-postdoc dynamic. Not for my CV - it took a long time to get back on track. Seems that the postdoc is smart about these things now and thinking ahead.

Please update us - what did you decide?

[jackit_n_tyy]

Getting a good postdoc who can really make things happen is a wonderful thing - if the post-doc's personality, and your relationship with that person is such that you get your fair share out of it as well, if they go along with your agenda, or maybe help redefine it in ways which make sense to you, and if your ego permits having a subordinate who may quickly grow to be better than you.  If, on the other hand, he or she is the kind of person who doesn't pay his or her dues, and doesn't recognize those who help along the way, then there is likely to be a problem.  The only way to decide is to talk to references, interview in person, and to go with your instinct on what kind of person this is likely to be. 

This is the key point.  I once analyzed all my hiring decisions, and found to my surprise that the key predictor of a poor hire was not ambition or talent, but whether the person's interests aligned with the group's interests.

I think what you are worrying about in your gut -- rightfully so -- is the possibility that this person will have their own agenda, and basically wants to launch their independent academic career early...on your dime.

[ragingsquirrel]

Speaking as someone who was nearly sunk by a first postdoc that sounds remarkably like this...

Definitely call the references, but be prepared to have to read between the lines (something like 'You would be lucky to get this person to work for you.') After things had gone completely south and I had fired said postdoc (the topic of my first Fora post, as I recall) I spoke with his former advisor at a meeting, from whom I had gotten a letter AND had called for his reference. She said, 'Didn't you notice how I didn't say he was the best postdoc I had ever had?' So keep your PI Secret Decoder Ring handy when you make those calls. I felt like an idiot for not noticing it, but after I'd had my own lab for about a year, I was at a meeting talking with other new PIs of about the same vintage, and all but one of us had had to fire our first postdoc for reasons having nothing to do with (or not only with) ability to get the job done.

Seconding many of the other responses, I would go with your gut if you feel there's something off. The lab dynamic you're trying to establish is too fragile to risk on someone who might affect it negatively, even postulating that they have great hands at the bench and are a genius at writing (which, face it, as a new PI you're not likely to be getting.)

[slownsteady]

I wanted to update everyone on this last post regarding "overambitious postdoc". In fact I did hire this person and things are just getting started and so far nothing to report on that.

However, I am having trouble adjusting with another one who was hired before who is clearly "NOT ambitious"..except for the fact that she/he likes a job in US. I feel like it is even hard to communicate intellectually with this person on most topics..as they seem to tune out when any complex topic is discussed..sort of like the brain can't take any more.. They had many papers ..but now looking carefully he/she was on supporting role for 80% of them. I am trying to be patient and not fire them before the 1 year contract ends..but it is painful. I could use this one for supporting roles, but I can have graduate students for that. Has anyone fired a postdoc before term. I feel it is bad/cruel to do that especially given that they just moved from another part of the globe. They seem to try to do things that I tell them..step by step..Won't think of what else can be done on their own. Any suggestions?

So in short I am happy that the over ambitious one is hired.. and yes this one has many more first author papers during PhD.

[scampster]

However, I am having trouble adjusting with another one who was hired before who is clearly "NOT ambitious"..except for the fact that she/he likes a job in US. I feel like it is even hard to communicate intellectually with this person on most topics..as they seem to tune out when any complex topic is discussed..sort of like the brain can't take any more.. They had many papers ..but now looking carefully he/she was on supporting role for 80% of them. I am trying to be patient and not fire them before the 1 year contract ends..but it is painful. I could use this one for supporting roles, but I can have graduate students for that. Has anyone fired a postdoc before term. I feel it is bad/cruel to do that especially given that they just moved from another part of the globe. They seem to try to do things that I tell them..step by step..Won't think of what else can be done on their own. Any suggestions?

I'm coming at this from a postdoc perspective, but firing them without warning before their term is up is somewhat cruel in my book. The key bit in that sentence being "without warning." I think you at least need to have a frank discussion with them and tell them that if they don't get their act together in a reasonable amount of time, that you will have to let them go. They might shape up or not, but at least they knew where they stood.

[slownsteady]

Yes, I will have a talk very soon.
It seems like "thinking" is not in this person's dictionary. Very frustrating.

[sagit]

I agree with scampster.  Because things are bad enough that you are considering firing this person, I think should at least start with being extremely direct with them about what exactly you see are critical failures and develop a plan for them to change their work behavior.  I wonder if it might be helpful to have a colleague somehow involved as some kind of neutral outside observer in case things go bad down the line (as in, someone who can back up your claims that you tried to help this person success as a postdoc before it got so bad that you had to fire them).

[slownsteady]

This person is trying to do what I tell them. But does not realize that somethings they did (the results) don't make any sense what so ever unless I tell them. One should learn these things early enough in PhD.
I am not hopeful that I can do any good quality work using this person. May be use them to build the lab (yet again painful as I have to literally tell each thing). On top of that they try to tell me why what they did is right.. and so on.

In longer run may be it is just best to get what I can get them to do and not renew the contract. But that is again perhaps waste of my funds for the most part..I will be wasting my time that I could train someone else who could actually stay longer and be useful for my lab and publish some quality papers.

I am considering discussing this with my Chair and some others and see what can be done. The offer letter says, that the employment can be terminated any time. But I am thinking of giving them few (3 months) months to find another job - I just don't want to get bad karma.
Well I should change the title of the message to "dense postdoc" ...

[zyzzx]

You said this person has come from another country. Did they do their Ph.D in that country? They might just be dense, but I would also wonder about cultural differences, depending on the country of origin. Following step by step instructions and not showing initiative sounds like the workplace culture of certain countries that I am familiar with. Although them arguing with you about why they are right sounds like the exact opposite.

[ruralguy]

Oh, forget the gut!

Why do we all say "go with the gut" when we kind of sort of agree with someone, and then when we disagree, we say that the person was, shall we say, less than efficient,  because they didn't bother using their brain?

Are you perhaps feeling threatened by your post-doc?

Let it work itself out.

If the person produces, and doesn't cause trouble (other than this ambitionm which seems to be bugging you for no real reason)  let them do what they'd like.

If they don't, then like any employee who doesn't make the grade, you have a decision to make.

[jackit_n_tyy]

This person is trying to do what I tell them. But does not realize that somethings they did (the results) don't make any sense what so ever unless I tell them. One should learn these things early enough in PhD.
I am not hopeful that I can do any good quality work using this person. May be use them to build the lab (yet again painful as I have to literally tell each thing). On top of that they try to tell me why what they did is right.. and so on.

In longer run may be it is just best to get what I can get them to do and not renew the contract. But that is again perhaps waste of my funds for the most part..I will be wasting my time that I could train someone else who could actually stay longer and be useful for my lab and publish some quality papers.

I am considering discussing this with my Chair and some others and see what can be done. The offer letter says, that the employment can be terminated any time. But I am thinking of giving them few (3 months) months to find another job - I just don't want to get bad karma.
Well I should change the title of the message to "dense postdoc" ...

Dude. (Dudette?)

You hired this person.  You were the talent evaluator.  They didn't just lose ability between the PhD and your postdoc position.

This person has taken a big chance on you, and now you want to dump them because they didn't turn out to be a high performer who will help launch your career to the next level.

I've fired several employees over the years, including postdocs.  The only reason I would (& did) terminate early a limited time contract like a postdoc was if I was asking for cooperation and wasn't getting it.

Clearly, this person it trying, and making progress, but just isn't as talented as you want them to be.

Yes, you have the upper hand here, you can fire this person with little or no pushback.

Do I think you are justified in doing it?  No, I do not.  Frankly, the type of thing you are talking about sounds like termination without cause and should normally be avoided. 

Look, I've been in your shoes.  You are desperate to make the lab go, get grants, write outstanding papers, etc.  But other people matter here as well, including this person who is counting on you.

Well, I'm pretty sure that is more than my 2 cents.

[monsterx]

I'm with jackitt on this one.  Considering it is a short term contract, it is best just to find a way the postdoc can contribute, given his or her skill set.  Unless he or she is a total screw up that should be possible.

[totoro]

I'd give them at least a year if they moved from overseas to take the position but warn them that you might not be able to employ them for any longer than that if they don't shape up.

[slownsteady]

Thanks all for the feedback.

I thought about it over the last couple of days. This person did make some plots (that made more sense) after I pointed out what was stupid in their last try. I have asked them to meet me for a chat, where I will let them know what I expect from them and what can improve in their way of doing things. I am planning to have this person make more group presentations so that they feel some peer pressure.

I agree that firing right away will not be good. I was just mad when I posted earlier..and surely have cooled down since then ;-)

Being a relatively new group it is hard to attract the most stellar ones anyway..so I guess one has to learn to work with who they have and go from there.