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[yumyumdonuts]

On preview: I want this to be a support thread like the ones that exist for individuals searching for TT jobs.

If there has been a thread like this before, please let me know. We can resurrect that thread. (I didn't feel like wrangling with the forum search function this morning.)

I've applied to about 10 federal government positions and about 15 industry positions in the last month. I've received two form rejections from industry.

How about you, current and former job seekers? Any tips on how to improve my odds?

[zharkov]

Networking is very helpful as a means to find out about and get industrial jobs.  I suspect you are in a field where PhDs have both academic and industry options.  If that is the case, then former profs and classmates will be helpful in advancing your industrial job search. 

[yumyumdonuts]

I am in a social science field where all of my research training has been on testing theories rather than applications, so I anticipate struggle in convincing employers that I have transferable skills. I'm hopeful though.

I have one grad school friend who just started in industry and said friend has given me lots of great tips. I also plan to meet up with another grad school friend who works in a NGO outside of the US. I'll ask this friend lots of questions about breaking into the non-profit world.

[zharkov]

I am in a social science field where all of my research training has been on testing theories rather than applications, so I anticipate struggle in convincing employers that I have transferable skills. I'm hopeful though.

I have one grad school friend who just started in industry and said friend has given me lots of great tips. I also plan to meet up with another grad school friend who works in a NGO outside of the US. I'll ask this friend lots of questions about breaking into the non-profit world.

Practice in front of a mirror saying, "<Blank> is basically applied <blank>."   So something like: Market research is basically applied econometrics.   Or: Organizational behavior is basically applied sociology.   And so on. 

In the meantime, reading some applied work is one way to build up your cred.

[bigtwin]

Informational interviews with propsective employers can be a good way to network and to learn what they seek in an applicant.

[username2]

Also, <blank> is not rocket science.

That goes triple if we're talking about market research. You'd be lucky if you ran anything more than a regression and ANOVA.

[gekko]

Are you specifically trying to find something directly related to your field or are you open to all jobs on a case by case basis regardless of direct relationship?

If the former, you know your field so do whatever is common. If the latter, I've been saying on this forum for years that people should stop using the phrase "use my degree" to do something unrelated or try to convince someone who actually has experience in that field why he needs the skills of someone totally unqualified by the generally accepted standards of whatever job is desired.

I had a successful industry job search in a field unrelated to my training and can not imagine telling someone I wanted to "use my MFA" to do the jobs I was applying for, or that the skills attained during this course of study were transferable to a field I had no experience in. The people who tell you the opposite is true CAN'T EVEN PLACE THEIR OWN GRADUATES IN ACADEMIC POSITIONS THAT THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH AND HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING SOMEONE THE SAME CREDENTIAL QUALIFIES THEM FOR A FIELD THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

A much better approach is to show your enthusiasm for the new field, not lobby to be considered qualified prior to any demonstration of this fact, based on accomplishments elsewhere. This comes off as less arrogant and allows you to show enthusiasm, which most employers value more than credentials once you're actually sitting in front of them.

The posters on this forum are constantly talking about how transferable academic credentials are but seem to have no way to substantiate this belief other than their own wish that it were the case coupled with the need for an "escape hatch" when they're unable to make placements in their own field. Let me ask the following two questions:

-If academic degrees confer such "transferable" skills, why is it that academic departments are much more restrictive than any industry position in the specificity they desire in job applicants, often requiring not only very specific subfields but recruiting repeatedly from the usual suspects (department or advisor) in the field?
Imagine someone whose B.A. and M.A. were in field x who attains a Ph.D. in semi-related field y and wishes to get an academic job in field x. Well, that would be absurd, but it's apparently reasonable to believe him qualified for every possible government, non-profit or industry job on the planet due to "transferable skills" attained.

-I'd like to see someone attempt to "use their academy award in directing" to chair an econ department, "use their olympic gold medal in figure skating" to get an assistant professor position in art history, or "use the skills they attained building a fortune 500 company" to run a university in general. (Even though the latter is a less facetious example, it's generally the source of complaints when considered.) What do you think would be the result of these attempts?

The bottom line is that anyone with two brain cells to rub together can ascertain that you accomplished something by completing the degree and if they have met with you to begin with, obviously didn't use the opportunity to weed you out due to the inability to check a specific box. You also have a big advantage over some applicants in that you don't need to explain being unemployed at the moment, since school in general explains away that concern. Show enthusiasm for what you're attempting to do and an interest in the new field with a convincing reason why you want to go in that direction.

[yumyumdonuts]

Are you specifically trying to find something directly related to your field or are you open to all jobs on a case by case basis regardless of direct relationship?

For now I'm applying to all jobs that vaguely sound as though I would be able to do, but I am looking for a new career outside academe and not a temporary fix. The thing with my field is that there is no common non-academic path and the majority of my cohort along with previous graduates of my program have gone onto TT positions.

The bottom line is that anyone with two brain cells to rub together can ascertain that you accomplished something by completing the degree and if they have met with you to begin with, obviously didn't use the opportunity to weed you out due to the inability to check a specific box. You also have a big advantage over some applicants in that you don't need to explain being unemployed at the moment, since school in general explains away that concern. Show enthusiasm for what you're attempting to do and an interest in the new field with a convincing reason why you want to go in that direction.

I have heeded your advice to emphasize enthusiasm to gain knowledge in the new area rather than "transferable skills" in my cover letters, although I have to say that the jobs that I am applying for are research positions and would rely on my qualitative and quantitative research skills, just in a new content area.

Are any others of you thinking of leaving academe applying for non-academic jobs right now?

[farm_boy]

gekko's post is the first sensible job-seeking advice that I've read here at CHE during the past 10 years.

And I'm entering Year #11 in my non-academic job search.

[alleyoxenfree]

I have posted at length on this elsewhere, so will distill it to this:

- while in academia, look for opportunities to gain additional dimensions to your experience.  If you are an English major but think you'd like to work in accounting, start teaching business writing, or a unit of it, meet with accountants to develop the course, invite a few to guest lecture, go to conferences in the crossover subject, etc.  Get something on your resume is not straight English teaching, and enlarge your circle of expertise, as well as your circle of acquaintances

- info interviews, yes, but also FOLLOW UP on meetings.  My current position is the direct result of the fact that, after being offered a very part-time job in "new field" that I couldn't take, I followed up by sending the friendly and highly placed interviewer some information, based on my expertise, about a project he mentioned interest in. He was so impressed that he offered to be a reference for me in the future at that workplace, and two year later, the right opening came up, and he did indeed act as a reference.  This has happened to me twice (that someone offered to be a reference based on the initial interview).  Meet, impress, follow up.  Even if it's the non-profit world, it's business rules of engagement.  Completely different than the job-talk mode of hiring.

[2much2do]

I think both alleyoxenfree and gekko have great ideas. I got my position by doing a research project for a non-profit a couple of years ago, and working with them to develop different versions of the findings for different audiences (legislators, potential donors, web site, other community partners).  So, part of what sold them was the ability to design a project that answered their question, but also an ability to wrote dissemination materials targeted to their audiences. The non-profits in my area have quite a communication network, so when a position came open, a different organization contacted me. Non-profits are fighting for their lives right now, and the ability to demonstrate their value is critical. If you can help them with that, you are golden.

If you have data analysis skills, another area of absolute desperate need for analysis is health care.  With health care reform legislation being implemented, health care organizations have to be able to quantify, describe, and negotiate for payment for groups of patients.  And while some larger systems have that capacity, many do not.  So, you don't really need to know much about health care, but the ability to use a dataset to identify groups or describe them would be a huge benefit.

You may be able to find appropriate non-profits through a state council of non-profits, or non-profit coalition within your state.  Informational interviews will help you find them. 

But know that industry is much different than academia, for better or worse. While the crazy faculty members aren't there, there is still a lot of insanity. If the job takes 80 hours a week for the next 3 months, they pretty much expect that you will do what it takes. And because they don't really understand what it takes to do the analysis work, they may be unrealistic in the amount of work you can do. But I make almost twice what I made in academia.

[yumyumdonuts]

I spent much of today reading blogs and websites of those who left academe, including those who are now marketing themselves as life coaches/experts to those transitioning to non-academic careers. It has not been entirely satisfying or uplifting, I have to say. Although I agree with many of their observations about the downsides of academe, particularly when coming from a working-class background such as myself, I saw too many posts about how the blogger/website creator was awesome at his/her teaching/publishing/service but because he/she was miserable with the long hours, he/she "walked away" to a job in industry with longer hours.

I've yet to read posts where the writer seems to have resolved their internal conflicts about leaving/being ejected, perhaps because these websites were created at the height of their uncertainty/recent decision to leave academe.

And I'm entering Year #11 in my non-academic job search.

farm_boy, I've read through the archives and know a bit about your story, such as the fact that you are currently location-bound and gave up a tenured position in Spanish. What I wanted to know was what type of jobs have you applied to so far and why you think you are not being offered those jobs.

- while in academia, look for opportunities to gain additional dimensions to your experience.

alleyoxenfree, I'm not at all familiar with your story, so I'll look into your older posts to gather more insights into how I can use your strategies to land a non-academic position. You've given me some great suggestions, although I can't implement the advice on creating new courses I can definitely look into inviting guest lecturers.

He was so impressed that he offered to be a reference for me in the future at that workplace, and two year later, the right opening came up, and he did indeed act as a reference.

I know this was meant to be encouraging, but the length of time it took for you to find a great, if not ideal, non-academic position had the opposite effect on me. I've only got one more terminal year after the spring semester. Yikes!

Non-profits are fighting for their lives right now, and the ability to demonstrate their value is critical.

and

But know that industry is much different than academia, for better or worse. While the crazy faculty members aren't there, there is still a lot of insanity. If the job takes 80 hours a week for the next 3 months, they pretty much expect that you will do what it takes. And because they don't really understand what it takes to do the analysis work, they may be unrealistic in the amount of work you can do. But I make almost twice what I made in academia.

The lack of funding and constant need to submit new grants are reasons I have not looked seriously yet in the  non-profit sector (although ironically enough my slac is technically a non-profit). Regardless of what non-academic career path I ultimately end up with, the long hours combined with entry-level status does scare me immensely (I've got a toddler I want to hang out with!), but I keep telling myself that being an assistant prof IS an entry-level position and I already work long hours.

[alleyoxenfree]

- while in academia, look for opportunities to gain additional dimensions to your experience.

alleyoxenfree, I'm not at all familiar with your story, so I'll look into your older posts to gather more insights into how I can use your strategies to land a non-academic position. You've given me some great suggestions, although I can't implement the advice on creating new courses I can definitely look into inviting guest lecturers.

He was so impressed that he offered to be a reference for me in the future at that workplace, and two year later, the right opening came up, and he did indeed act as a reference.

I know this was meant to be encouraging, but the length of time it took for you to find a great, if not ideal, non-academic position had the opposite effect on me. I've only got one more terminal year after the spring semester. Yikes!

Okay, let me try to be encouraging while offering a piece of feedback.  Your criticism of other websites and of the timeline here shows a kind of negativity that isn't going to help you.  It's unrealistic to think that people would process an entire change of field in an instant, or maybe ever.  Just as with any life event, there may be ghosts.  Happiness can occur anyway.

Second, it can happen quickly but more frequently, it is a series of steps.  From my last full-time teaching job, it was three.  A non-profit that I'm volunteered with prior.  A temporary teaching job.  A not-great academic environment job that was non-teaching but at which I learned good skills, got new work samples, and got to connect both of those to something I taught prior.  You do not need to design entirely new courses in order to change your reading list or your assignments to benefit YOUR personal exploration, while also benefiting the students.  A good book is Work Identity, which also focuses on this step-by-step process of finding your way, rather than the more common self-help model of the epiphany.

There are non-profits that are shaky and many that are not.  There's a lot to be researched there and as a Ph.D., you are ideally suited to do it.  Is there a way you could assign something about nonprofit worlds in your class?  Then you get to do the reading, and get the benefit of your students working as researchers for you.
PM me if you want more ideas.

As you say, you are at entry level as a professor, but for a number of things, you can make a lateral move and use all your teaching skills as the stepping stone.  You do have to give up the idea that it will, or even should be, quick.  If you have a toddler, start talking to all the parents about their workplaces and professions while at the playgroup.  Take ideas and see how they can work - rather than thinking about how they won't.  Turn what you're scared about into fuel.  Lest you think I'm preaching, I have to remind myself of this every day - but I work all day with people who have done it, and are happily working at something else.

[polly_mer]

I've yet to read posts where the writer seems to have resolved their internal conflicts about leaving/being ejected, perhaps because these websites were created at the height of their uncertainty/recent decision to leave academe.

People who leave academia and find other wonderful things to do aren't generally writing a lot of blogs.  Instead, they are out doing those other wonderful things.  People who are miserable tend to blog about how they were wronged.  People who are pretty content are off being content.

Go read a bunch of biographies of people who end up successful.  Nearly all of the ones that I've read include at least a few years of being in the wrong place barely scraping by (Albert Einstein immediately comes to mind as does Marie Curie).  Just recently, someone's 70th birthday retrospective included a tenure denial at MIT as part of his history and yet, here was an entire journal issue devoted to the interesting things this guy had done for the decades after that denial.

You can still have a great life in lots of areas, but getting off the path you were told to be on is scary.  It's ok, just ignore those little voices in your head that say, "If I just do more research and check the right boxes, the path will become clear".  The path won't become clear, but you can find something interesting if you keep choosing to look and have an open mind instead of thinking that you will start at the top.  Assistant professor is an entry-level position and you can get a different entry-level position in another venue.

The fact that you have a doctorate and got a TT position means you have the qualities that lead to an interesting, successful life.  Keep that in mind and look for new adventures.

[farm_boy]

yumyum, the major factor has been that I was a "troublemaker."  It's a long story, and if you're interested I can send details in a private message, or you could buy my book.

One of my more memorable recent failures at applying for a non-academic job was when the receptionist laughed at me over the phone and refused to interview me for a bilingual paralegal position.  I had sent her my resume, and she said "You have a PhD!  We would never hire someone with a PhD!" followed by more laughter.