next »

[mended_drum]

I come to the fora again for some advice and information.

I have a friend and colleague with whom I'm struggling to have productive conversations.  The problem may well be me, but since I've never quite encountered anything like this, I thought I'd throw it out to all of you and get your responses.

When she asks me a question or brings up a topic of conversation, she attempts to guide my responses with a set of rules.  I'll provide a couple of examples.  She might say, "Student X does not seem to be able to read a basic text."  Then I could answer, "Hmmm, I've had Student X, and he seemed to be able to read the assigned texts in my course.  What are you teaching?"  She'll reply, "I don't want to talk about that.  I want to talk about what's wrong with Student X." 

Or today, for example.  She stopped me in the hallway and asked, "Did you hear about Video A?"  "No," I replied.  "Well," she continued, "it reminded me of [anecdote about political discussion in her classroom]."  "Who exactly produced that video?" I asked.  Colleague:  "That is not important.  I was trying to tell you an anecdote!"  Me:  "I just wondered what the connection was between the video and what you told me..."  Colleague:  "I've never even watched the video.  Never mind.  I don't want to have a meta-conversation with you."

In other instances, she just resorts to telling me how to respond before the conversation begins.  She'll say, "I don't actually want your opinion on this; I just want to tell you how I feel," or "I need you to concentrate on what I'm going to tell you.  Don't tell me that this isn't a problem of yours."

Now, I don't really mind if people distinguish between wanting sympathy and advice, and I'm clearly frustrating her by not responding to her the way she wants me to.  But I'm feeling resentful.  I don't like to be told that a conversation can only go the way one person wants it to go.  It makes me feel that it's always about what she needs from talking to me, rather than communicating between us. 

My question is this:  is this a way of communicating that is common?  Do you all have friends, family, colleagues who tell you explicitly how you're to respond to their quesitons or comments?  In other words, am I wrong to think that this is an odd and uncomfortable way to communicate?  Or should I just find a way to adapt to it?

[crowie]

I think it is not uncommon (I have definitely encountered it) but certainly an odd and uncomfortable way of communicating.  If I confront someone who is doing it, some of the time I am able to get them to acknowledge that it's problematic in the context of the specific conversation, but it doesn't necessarily stop them from doing it again in the future.  I think it is a behavioral/personality tendency that won't go away unless the person exhibiting it thinks that there is a problem, and I'm not sure what that would take.

I would distinguish folks who make a habit of doing this every day on any kind of topic from, say, a friend who has, I don't know, just discovered her husband has been having an affair, who calls you up and says "I just want to vent about my husband's behavior for a bit even though I think I might be taking him back but I don't want your advice on whether or not to take him back, just please listen so I can get some of this out of my system."  Like you said, advice vs. sympathy.  But I actually think that stepping back and announcing in advance how you want the conversation to go should be kind of an exceptional demand precisely because you are dealing with an exceptional event (such as a betrayal, grief etc.), and I think it is cheapened when you use it all day, every day to attempt to control others.

[lizzy]

I have a colleague who does something like this, though not as overtly as yours does. I'll agree with you that it's odd. Beyond that, I find it annoyingly condescending and controlling. My colleague drives me nuts, and it sounds like yours is significantly worse.

I've gotten to the point that when I cannot avoid her, I either:  1) nod, say something polite but vague and remark that I have urgent business elsewhere, or 2) laugh and say something along the lines of "are you really telling me what I can and cannot say? OK [repeat what she said]."  Pretty soon, I'll be forced to add 3) a not-so-polite remark about finding pre-scripted conversations odd and awkward. Fantasy response: "Hmm. Sounds like you've got control issues. Perhaps you should talk to someone about that. Someone who's not me."

Two side notes: I'm tenured, and my responses vary depending on how often I see her and how fed up I've become with her behavior.

In any case, my sympathies.

[mended_drum]

Thanks.  There are a few other oddities.  She seems to have (or claims to have) a nearly perfect memory for conversations and will actually object if I contradict something I said to her five or six years ago, claiming to be quoting me directly.  I often remember the conversations, but not my exact wording, so I can't tell for certain if she's accurate or not.  She finds that really frustrating and has even responded, when I pause and try to remember, with "And now you're going to claim you don't remember that.  Never mind."  But I don't think I have a bad memory at all; it's just not word-perfect.

There are other, little things, but I've passed most of them off as eccentricities. 

But it's possible I'm the frustrating one, and she's resorting to this behavior as a way to handle me.  I do find myself sometimes trying to redirect her focus, but that's because being direct with her has, in the past, backfired tremendously, causing anger, tears and nastiness.  She's a really bright, maybe brilliant person, who is an asset to my institution.  But I find myself drained and feeling defeated after talking to her.

[miss_jane_marple]

I do find myself sometimes trying to redirect her focus, but that's because being direct with her has, in the past, backfired tremendously, causing anger, tears and nastiness.  She's a really bright, maybe brilliant person, who is an asset to my institution.  But I find myself drained and feeling defeated after talking to her.

Well, it's possible that if someone from the fora were to witness some conversations between you and Ms Brilliant, he or she might be better able to form an opinion about what is happening, with labels and proper theoretical support and yadda yadda <interthreaduality>. But your last sentence pretty much says it all. No matter who in this story is "healthier" or less dysfunctional or whatever one chooses to call it, the fact is, interacting with this person is not pleasant for you.

Is there a way you can disengage your personal involvement while remaining polite?

I often remember the conversations, but not my exact wording, so I can't tell for certain if she's accurate or not.  She finds that really frustrating and has even responded, when I pause and try to remember, with "And now you're going to claim you don't remember that.

In this example, can you just smile and shake your head and say, "Sorry, I just don't remember it that way." And then change the subject, or look at your watch, or get away gracefully.

When she says things like, "I don't actually want your opinion on this; I just want to tell you how I feel," or "I need you to concentrate on what I'm going to tell you.  Don't tell me that this isn't a problem of yours," then just do that. Listen to how she feels, make an appropriate empathic response -- "I can see where that would be frustrating/annoying/infuriating" and after a moment of silence, move the conversation along. "What do you plan to do next?" or "How did you handle THAT?" Remove your self as much as possible from the mix -- just be the mirror and audience she's looking for.

There are several good, short books on dealing with people who are brilliant and talented and spectacular and important and only want an audience. You might find one (in the RC553 area of the library) helpful.
 

[mended_drum]

When she says things like, "I don't actually want your opinion on this; I just want to tell you how I feel," or "I need you to concentrate on what I'm going to tell you.  Don't tell me that this isn't a problem of yours," then just do that. Listen to how she feels, make an appropriate empathic response -- "I can see where that would be frustrating/annoying/infuriating" and after a moment of silence, move the conversation along. "What do you plan to do next?" or "How did you handle THAT?" Remove your self as much as possible from the mix -- just be the mirror and audience she's looking for.

This sounds like very good advice.  I've tried it, but I think I may be too clumsy.  I've tried, "I'm sorry that you're hurting" and "That sounds pretty frustrating," and once that worked very well.  The other time, she got angry.  I'll practice some more phrases, though, and ways to continue the conversation, as you suggest.

I honestly think that part of her frustration is that she needs me to affirm, not just her feelings, but her perceptions, especially about our department.  But I don't share them.  In fact, sometimes I don't recognize the people she's describing at all.  But I definitely can't say that.

As for distancing myself, well, I've tried.  It's difficult, as we're a small department, and her subfield is the closest in my department to my own.  I need her to work with me professionally.

[barred_owl]

MD, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that someone actually said, "I don't want to have a meta-conversation with you."  Who says that?!

I might be an outlier, but I'm concerned that there's more than eccentricity at work here.  Obviously, you know this person better than any of us ever will, but, well...  Let's put it this way:  it's not you.  It sounds like your colleague has erected all sorts of walls that bar any sort of meaningful discussion, and she's very defensive.  It's almost as if she's had the conversation she wants to have, knows how it will end, and then, as you say, searches for someone to validate or affirm her particular stance.  That's not typical or common at all, in my opinion.

You've said that you need to work with her professionally, but I can't help but wonder how that's possible (at least in a way that would be productive) if she's so closed-off and controlling.  Do any of your other colleagues have similar difficulties with her? 

I guess I don't have any additional advice beyond what others have already offered, but I'll wish you luck or infinite patience (which you already seem to have in abundance).

[punchnpie]

MD, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that someone actually said, "I don't want to have a meta-conversation with you."  Who says that?!

Yeah, I'm going to say that's strange. I once worked with a guy who had pet fish. A co-worker tried to start a conversation, saying he also had fish, but they were a different type. Smart a$$ guy says, "Well, we can't talk, can we?" laughs, and walks out.

My stepfather, a litigator, used to talk to us like that. He was going to control the conversation, even at home. If he thought you didn't have anything pertinent to add to the conversation, he wasn't interested in listening to you. And though I hate to admit it, I can speak that way at times myself. I never thought of it as controlling the conversation, but I guess there's nothing else to call it. I just know from dealing with clients and other regular folks, that people often want to go down a very long tangential hallway before they get to the point of what they want to say. I will head someone off at the pass by telling them I'm asking for a response to or more information regarding x, y, & z, but not the a-z they want to tell me. I'm not interested in a-z. I don't want the meta-conversation.

Oh, lord. I'm pretty sure I don't come off like your colleague. I hope I'm self aware about it, and say it in a friendly manner. I do recognize other people's feelings, which your colleague may not.  It's unfortunate that you have to work with someone who's so difficult.

[infopri]

My question is this:  is this a way of communicating that is common?  Do you all have friends, family, colleagues who tell you explicitly how you're to respond to their quesitons or comments?  In other words, am I wrong to think that this is an odd and uncomfortable way to communicate?  Or should I just find a way to adapt to it?

My mother behaved this way, including displaying the need for others (especially me) to affirm not only her feelings but her perceptions--even when I didn't share them.  If I didn't, she often went into a rage.  But it's important to note that she had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  She was completely unaware of how strange (and often offensive) her behavior seemed to other people and how difficult she was to get along with, unless you were willing to do so completely on her terms.

When she says things like, "I don't actually want your opinion on this; I just want to tell you how I feel," or "I need you to concentrate on what I'm going to tell you.  Don't tell me that this isn't a problem of yours," then just do that. Listen to how she feels, make an appropriate empathic response -- "I can see where that would be frustrating/annoying/infuriating" and after a moment of silence, move the conversation along. "What do you plan to do next?" or "How did you handle THAT?" Remove your self as much as possible from the mix -- just be the mirror and audience she's looking for.

This sounds like very good advice.  I've tried it, but I think I may be too clumsy.  I've tried, "I'm sorry that you're hurting" and "That sounds pretty frustrating," and once that worked very well.  The other time, she got angry.  I'll practice some more phrases, though, and ways to continue the conversation, as you suggest.

I agree with miss_jane_marple's suggestions.  This is pretty much how I dealt with my mother for most of our lives.  But it's tricky.  It's important that you don't sound condescending or patronizing.  My mother wanted you to follow her script, but to do so with sincerity--and she had a remarkable b.s. detector.  But if you can express sincere interest, manage to give the appearance of agreement without actually agreeing, and so forth, you may find your conversations running more smoothly, although you won't be getting much out of them.

How do you give the appearance of agreement without actually agreeing?  By asking questions, just as miss_jane_marple suggested.  "Really?  What makes you say that Student X can't seem to be able to read a basic text?"  <She answers.>  "Yes, I see what you mean.  What do you think the problem is?  Is s/he being lazy, or do you think s/he simply can't do the work?"  "How do you plan to handle the situation?"  You're not actually agreeing to anything, but you're expressing interest, you're letting your colleague get whatever it is off her chest, and she may even think that you're following the script, even though you're really not.

It's a very difficult way to conduct a relationship, but there's little choice when (a) you can't afford to rock the boat, and (b) can't just walk away.  I wish you much luck.

[grasshopper]

MD, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that someone actually said, "I don't want to have a meta-conversation with you."  Who says that?!

Someone with Asperger's? It's the bit about the perfect memory and allusions to other eccentricities and brilliance that make me wonder.

Not very helpful, really, since you still have to deal with her, whether you can put a name to her behaviour or not.

[mended_drum]

You've said that you need to work with her professionally, but I can't help but wonder how that's possible (at least in a way that would be productive) if she's so closed-off and controlling.  Do any of your other colleagues have similar difficulties with her? 

I don't think she uses the same techniques on my other colleagues, but, on the other hand, she has offended so many of the ones in my department that almost all of her close relationships are with colleagues outside of the department, so I don't witness the conversations that much.  I may be the only person in the department that she's comfortable confiding in.

I'm a little more concerned about her conversational style with students who seem to leave her office crying a lot more often than I would expect.  Not that mine don't cry once in a while, but, well, it's awfully common for hers. 

[geoteo]

I am impressed by your restraint.  A colleague like this would have me crawling the walls.  Or more likely answering her sharply, which is probably what the other people in your department did to put themselves on her bad list.

It is true, however, that people who don't want the meta-conversation literally can't tolerate it.  Our previous academic dean was like that, and we could see him trying really hard to listen to our drivel while he waited for us to come to the point.  My explanations have become much crisper and more concise in response to this quirk.

[theritas]

I'm really just checking in here so I don't miss any further advice or follow up to the story.  My examples around this are so much less dramatic than this one that I don't have much in the way of helpful advice or even an anecdote.  Good luck!

[polly_mer]

It is true, however, that people who don't want the meta-conversation literally can't tolerate it.  Our previous academic dean was like that, and we could see him trying really hard to listen to our drivel while he waited for us to come to the point.  My explanations have become much crisper and more concise in response to this quirk.

The question in my mind is context.  If I walk into your office to point blank ask, "Are we doing the evaluations at the beginning of class or the end of class?", the answers I want are limited to "beginning", "end", and "I don't care, you pick".  I am not going to have a ten-minute discussion on the pros and cons of each; I am going to short-circuit that conversation to be the thirty seconds it ought to be even if I have to rudely interrupt to say, "Class starts in five minutes.  My preference is beginning since the third in this situation will be in my class giving my evaluations so I'd have to miss both the beginning and end of my class to do your evaluations.  Do you have a compelling reason to do end of class or should I be in your class in five minutes?"

On the other hand, a question like "when is the end-of-semester assessment meeting?" could have to be a lengthy, meandering trudge through your mind as you think aloud on the choices.  Ideally, you would just pull out the calendar and say, "How does <date> or <date> work for you?", but I accept that not everyone's mind works that way when put on the spot.

Context matters.  While I will try to control a conversation that I've initiated for a concrete purpose with objectives to be met in an efficient manner, I'm also up for conversations that meander if the purpose is connecting and having fun.  However, what Mended_Drum describes goes beyond sometimes being efficient in certain cases into being the control freak for the general case, which is hard to take as the victim in the conversation.

[username2]

Yes, this sounds like defensive behavior, and probably comes out of a place of insecurity. On the other hand, some people just aren't as socially gifted and have low emotional awareness, and there are different reasons for communicating.

I can recommend an easy but helpful book called Coping with Difficult People here. You sound like an emotional communicator, while your colleague sounds like a task-oriented communicator. Your motive for chatting is probably to have a nice mutual experience, while she's trying to just achieve task A or task B. No wonder you're both feeling frustrated by your conversations.

I'm interested to see you making the effort here if it's that frustrating. Perhaps it would be better to limit the conversations to what you can take. You're neither her spouse nor her shrink.