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[whereto]

I've again been blocked for promotion (boo) and have noticed there is an SL position coming up in a cognate department in my own university.

I'm in Basketweaving, which is in our Hard Science faculty while this post is in Pottery which is in our Artsy-fartsy faculty. Pottery is a much smaller specialism nationally but our Pottery department does really well in all kinds of rankings (we are only "somewhat above average" in Basketweaving).

However my main area of research is in New Containers - people who work in New Containers mainly work in Basketweaving departments because there are more of them, but many work in Pottery and indeed I was also recently headhunted for a professorship in an Applied Ceramics department, at FormerU. This is a very specific New Containers position and even asks for people with some Basketweaving framework to their research.

So, I am of course going to AFTDJ.

I am thinking I would frame my diagonal move as "looking for a new challenge" but I "really like the CurrentU atmosphere". And I was on Pottery's PQR panel last year so can gush about how impressed I was with their teaching. I am also thinking of saying that my New Containers research is not sufficiently valued in the Basketweaving context. Is that too close to saying "I am only applying for this job to get promotion"? The New Containers journals are mainstream in Pottery but seen as a bit low level in Basketweaving.

I've been headhunted twice for professorships in the last year or so, and I've had two or three people surprised that I'm not at least Reader. Is it worth asking for the extra kudos of Reader (as it means no extra money for them), and if so at what stage (application letter, or job offer)?

There are advantages to my current department -being Hard Science there is more funding per student, and it's an easier sell, plus it's always easier to stay put (even if just moving across campus). And one issue is that I have some PhD students who are in Applied Basketweaving and do nothing on New Containers so would need to remain in Baskeweaving. Joint supervision across campus would be a piece of cake, but if I got a new overseas student Pottery would be p'd off if they missed out on overseas fees. So I would probably negotiate if offered the job but I would definitely take it unless I found out something scary at interview.

Finally, and thanks for your attention, I am likely to be taking weeks or even months of personal leave early-mid next year. There will be points at which I could not attend interview and points at which I could attend, but won't be reading work email daily (I'll put on an out of office reply).  Should I use my gmail address instead on the application? I don't know dates or have full confirmation of this leave yet so I can't put "unavailable between..." on the application. I'll be reading personal email most of the time and I'll be able to answer the phone.

[whereto]

Nobody at all?

A quick phone call to the Ceramics department confirms that they'd welcome an internal application - I am wondering how much, if any, of my pure Basketweaving work to leave off my CV (or push in the direction of New Containers where it can't be pushed to Ceramics).

[username2]

I think that you are not getting responses because you have set up an elaborate scenario but seem to have worked it out for yourself. Also, you might be providing too much identifying information.

But you may as well go for it.

[mingus]

If you feel you are reader/professor material, why not just apply for promotion within your own university, and in your current deparrment?  Why bother with the SL?

In general given that you are considering a position within your own university, talking to the right people there is likely to be much more helpful than seeking random answers here. It seems that you have so far not done that, which is surprising.

[whereto]

Mingus, I know you are notorious for tough love, and I believe you are working in the UK. I don't mind sensible kicks up the backside, but you cannot be unaware of the phenomenon whereby many people only gain a promotion on moving position.  Funnily enough it has occurred to me to apply for promotion within my department but there is a history of not allowing qualified candidates even to submit their paperwork (this has just happened to me; of course I realise I may be overestimating my own ability, but mutterings about other colleagues who have been blocked seem fairly justified to me).

I hope I'm not being too specific - I can't be the only person who has moved disciplines because they fall between two stools while having a lot of material on their CV that is relevant to the original discipline, rather than the new discipline. Does anyone have any advice to offer on that point? Or on the issue of how to ask them to contact me?

I have already spoken to the other department. I am reluctant to ask them "strategy" questions as the conversation we had was brief and breezy; I know they'd be happy to answer questions about the department etc. but there's not much that would actually prevent me from applying, it's more a case of asking for specific details at the interview or offer stage.

[helpful]

I would put your gmail address as your corresponding address. Otherwise, you might miss an important email regarding your application.

[mingus]

Mingus, I know you are notorious for tough love, and I believe you are working in the UK. I don't mind sensible kicks up the backside, but you cannot be unaware of the phenomenon whereby many people only gain a promotion on moving position.  Funnily enough it has occurred to me to apply for promotion within my department but there is a history of not allowing qualified candidates even to submit their paperwork (this has just happened to me; of course I realise I may be overestimating my own ability, but mutterings about other colleagues who have been blocked seem fairly justified to me).

I hope I'm not being too specific - I can't be the only person who has moved disciplines because they fall between two stools while having a lot of material on their CV that is relevant to the original discipline, rather than the new discipline. Does anyone have any advice to offer on that point? Or on the issue of how to ask them to contact me?

I have already spoken to the other department. I am reluctant to ask them "strategy" questions as the conversation we had was brief and breezy; I know they'd be happy to answer questions about the department etc. but there's not much that would actually prevent me from applying, it's more a case of asking for specific details at the interview or offer stage.

Moving to get a promotion is not unusual.  But within the same university?  "history of not allowing qualified candidates"? Does that mean they told you that you weren't read, or that they would not accept the applicatrion, or ....?   Interesting rules your university has.  What happens when you fill the forms and say, "here you go; am applying for a promotion"?   Nothing unusual with moving disciplines; it's all about inter-disciplinary work these days.

So. let's summarise your situation:

1. You are prof. material.  We know this because you have been headhunted for chairs.

2. At the very least, you are reader material.  We know this because many people have told you that by now you ought to be at least that.

3. But your own department will not promote you to even SL.  Won't even let you think about it.

4.  Within your university, with its hundeds of academic staff, some of whom know you, the department, and the university very well, there is not a single person who can give you good counsel.

Good luck getting useful advice from a random lot on the web.  Still, being a nice guy, I will make a contribution:

Depening on what "within my department but there is a history of not allowing qualified candidates even to submit their paperwork" means, I would advice one of the following:  

1.  Nicely type up all your promotion materials and go show them to the dean.  OR  

2. Get your promotion at another university.  

With either, get good letters from all those of tell you that you are reader/prof. material.  If you are known to be a flake within your department, then trying to sneak into another department will not work (see 4 above), and you will have to go with the second option. If you are not a flake, then there is no reason why you should not be able to have a good enough conversation with the right people in the other department to know wjat your chances would be if you applied for the job.  (Forget the HR stuff about all applications being considered "virgin".)   Good luck.

[wegie]

My one reservation would be about moving away from a STEM department in the current climate, even when the new post comes with a promotion. Does Pottery have any idea of how their applicant numbers are holding up? Is you university going to be charging 9K? How well is research in New Containers funded in Pottery as opposed to what you currently have access to in Basketweaving? How well integrated into the Arts Faculty is the Pottery Department? How much support for the Arts Faculty is there at the senior level in the university? Is there even a chance that Pottery as an expensive Arts degree could get chopped as a department and any remaining relevant bits get thrown to Basketweaving as a sub-department in the medium term?

[mingus]

.

[mingus]

I would put your gmail address as your corresponding address. Otherwise, you might miss an important email regarding your application.

:-)

[whereto]

Moving to get a promotion is not unusual.  But within the same university?  "history of not allowing qualified candidates"? Does that mean they told you that you weren't read, or that they would not accept the applicatrion, or ....?   Interesting rules your university has.  What happens when you fill the forms and say, "here you go; am applying for a promotion"?  

The forms are back on your desk within a couple of weeks after your HoD has refused to sign them and send them to the promotions committee; that just happened to me and has happened to at least two other people in recent years. Sure, I could walk over to the dean's office with my paperwork and say "my HoD is being meeeeeaaaan to me" but hu would consider this a challenge to up the level of meanness. Hu does not normally back up the HoDs in our faculty but would make an exception in this type of situation.

4.  Within your university, with its hundeds of academic staff, some of whom know you, the department, and the university very well, there is not a single person who can give you good counsel.

Good luck getting useful advice from a random lot on the web.

Did I say I wasn't asking other people than you for advice? I strongly believe in crowdsourcing.  There are already good points made here (thanks wegie) that I hadn't thought of, and of course I'm asking colleagues too.

With either, get good letters from all those of tell you that you are reader/prof. material.  If you are known to be a flake within your department, then trying to sneak into another department will not work (see 4 above), and you will have to go with the second option. If you are not a flake, then there is no reason why you should not be able to have a good enough conversation with the right people in the other department to know wjat your chances would be if you applied for the job.  (Forget the HR stuff about all applications being considered "virgin".)   Good luck.

I'm not quite sure why you think they are actually going to tell me that they won't consider me on equal footing?  Do you have a magic question to ask other than "will you consider an application from someone in another department"? My closest colleague in Pots has said they are hoping for someone to build stronger links with Baskets (so, a point for the covering letter) and their HoD just said they'd "welcome an application".   What do I ask "so, would you really welcome an application or are you just saying that?"?

My one reservation would be about moving away from a STEM department in the current climate, even when the new post comes with a promotion. Does Pottery have any idea of how their applicant numbers are holding up? Is you university going to be charging 9K? How well is research in New Containers funded in Pottery as opposed to what you currently have access to in Basketweaving? How well integrated into the Arts Faculty is the Pottery Department? How much support for the Arts Faculty is there at the senior level in the university? Is there even a chance that Pottery as an expensive Arts degree could get chopped as a department and any remaining relevant bits get thrown to Basketweaving as a sub-department in the medium term?

These are all very good points.  We are going to be charging 9K across the board, and the entry grades for Pots are actually higher than Baskets. They are hugely appealing to overseas Masters students and because of that and other reasons they are one of the favourite children in Arts (though the University is probably not as excited as they could be) . I'd still be able to apply to most of the same funding bodies (they are much more project- than discipline-dependent) but the PhD situation is not as rosy as it could be - I would definitely ask for a PhD studentship if I got the job (I know I might not get that).

[mingus]

I'm not quite sure why you think they are actually going to tell me that they won't consider me on equal footing?  Do you have a magic question to ask other than "will you consider an application from someone in another department"? My closest colleague in Pots has said they are hoping for someone to build stronger links with Baskets (so, a point for the covering letter) and their HoD just said they'd "welcome an application".   What do I ask "so, would you really welcome an application or are you just saying that?"?

I don't think that.  What I mean is that official line from HR and the department will be that all applications will be considered equally, on a purely objective basis.  If you believe that that is always so, and it may well be so where you work, then all is well.  I, on the other hand, would expect you to have a slight advantage from the fact that you have been working there for some years and are already known to the people there; so the issue is how might be able to make use of that.

Of course, the HoD said they would welcome an application.  He/she might even have said they would be delighted to welcome your application.  Given HR and employment regulations, they would hardly be expected to say otherwise.  So you got an answer that pretty much told you nothing.  My point is that you work at the place and you kow people there; so you should be able to do a lot of informal but helpful sounding-out.  I wish you good luck, but, in relation to your original post, I don't see you getting better advice here than you would from colleagues at your university who know both you and the place.

[mleok]

With regards to the SL vs. Reader issue, I think this is something which might need to be brought up at the very onset, since the hiring process for these are different at some places.

For example, when I was offered a professorship recently, the reader and professor candidates were interviewed by a committee with the dean as the committee chair and a distinguished external member from another university, and the lecturer and senior lecturers in a different group where the department head was the committee chair and the external member was from another department within the university. Apparently, this was because the required approval authority for professor/reader appointments was higher than for lecturer/senior lecturer appointments.

[mingus]

With regards to the SL vs. Reader issue, I think this is something which might need to be brought up at the very onset, since the hiring process for these are different at some places.

For example, when I was offered a professorship recently, the reader and professor candidates were interviewed by a committee with the dean as the committee chair and a distinguished external member from another university, and the lecturer and senior lecturers in a different group where the department head was the committee chair and the external member was from another department within the university. Apparently, this was because the required approval authority for professor/reader appointments was higher than for lecturer/senior lecturer appointments.

That is also the case in the UK universities whose processes I am familiar with.  Even if a committee had the power to make such a decision, some HR person would point out that the position was not advertised as such and that advertising for a Reader (i.e advretising SL/Reader") might have attracted a different pool of applicants.

Apart from that, being denied promotion to SL and then jumping to Reader at the same university seems awfully tricky.  I don't see it happening at a proper university, but it may be possible in a post-92.