next »

[punchnpie]

Last month I bought 4 new tires had them put on by a tire place. They asked me to come back in a week for a 're-torquing' (sp?), which I did. Everything seemed fine to the tire folks and has been fine as far as I can tell when I drive. I have no idea what torquing is.

Today I took the car in for its usual review (fluids, tires, etc.) and one of the issues that came back was a need for a tire alignment. No one at the tire place mentioned this and the guy at the dealership was a little surprised when I said so.

I've been taking the car to this dealer since I bought it and am religious about going for the check ups. I recognize that I don't know much anything about cars and look to the experts. They have been very good about answering my questions when I've had them and until today, I never thought they were trying to get over on me. The only 'major' work I've had done was tire rotation about 2 years ago. When LB (who was almost finished an automotive tech certificate) was here, I asked him to look at the car as sort of a check on the dealership's work and he said the car was in good shape.

So, would a tire shop put on tires without aligning them? Is there anyone to blame here or is this just the natural order of car-related things?  In case it matters, the car is a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe, I'm the 2nd owner and the car has about 25,000 miles on it (I only drive around town). Punch jr thinks they saw me coming, but he only got his license 6 months before I did and is hardly a mechanic. The mechanic suggested 3 repairs and was adamant that if I had to choose, the alignment should come first.

What say the assembled masses? Did I just get taken? It wasn't cheap.

[alto_stratus]

If you were going to have an alignment done, doing it after new tires are installed seems like a good time for it, to make sure your new tires aren't subjected to uneven wear.
http://autos.aol.com/article/tire-installation-wheel-alignment/

In my reading, it looked like some people were told the tire shops couldn't do the alignment, so that part might be correct.  Did you call the tire shop?

Torquing is just making sure the bolts are still on right after the "break-in" period.

[infopri]

Hi, punchnpie.  I don't know whether you got taken or not, but I did note a couple of oddities in your experience.

First, tires don't get aligned--wheels do.  All the wheel-alignment does is ensure that all four wheels are straight/parallel (with the rear tires following directly in the tracks of the front tires), so that when the steering wheel is straight the car pulls neither to the left nor to the right.  I've never heard of aligning tires.  What I have heard of--and what the tire folks should have done--is to mount and balance the tires.  Your tires are obviously mounted (that just means installing them onto the wheels and putting them onto the car), but perhaps they didn't balance them?  To balance the wheels, the mechanic puts small weights, as needed, in various spots on the wheel to ensure that the tire is turning evenly, etc.

I've also never heard of torquing tires, let alone re-torquing them.  Torque has to do with rotational force, but I've never heard the term applied to tires before.  When it comes to cars, I usually hear about how much torque an engine has.  And I've never heard the term used as a verb (to torque something), so "re-torquing" doesn't make much sense to me, either.

Now, granted, I'm not a mechanic, and there's much I don't know about cars, so perhaps no one is pulling any fast ones here.  But I also know that, unfortunately, I've had way too many experiences of mechanics seeing a woman (even one wearing a wedding ring) and figuring that she doesn't know anything about cars and won't recognize a con job.

ETA:  Alto_stratus posted at the same time I did, so I didn't see the link until just now--but notice that the article talks about wheel alignment and tire balancing.  So, again, this notion of "tire alignment" doesn't quite make sense to me.

[alto_stratus]

Found this funny, and informative. . .
Torque:  It's the Law! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtzAT4BYcgw

[oldadjunct]

Sadly, probably so.  As a general rule, you shouldn't be taking a car of that age to the dealership for routine maintenance. Perhaps it depends on the area, but you are long off warranty and should have your oil/fluids/tire pressure done at some type of generic drive through (Jiffy Lube?).  They will also try to up sell you, but their base rates will be lower than a typical dealership.

You should also investigate to discover reputable local mechanics to handle most everything else.  Once in a blue moon a reputable mechanic will admit that a particular problem should be taken to the dealership.

As to the tires, if you went to a reputable tire chain it is unlikely they didn't check alignment since they would have been more than happy to add that to your bill, but again at a lower base rate than a dealership.  Unlikely, not impossible.

And yes to the comments about torquing and balancing.  Balancing is part of putting tires on a car, alligngment is about wheels.  I have never in my life had to bring a car back to have the lug nuts re-torqued.

[mystictechgal]

I have never heard of taking a car back to have the tires re-torqued. Torquing is their use of, generally, a pneumatic torque to screw on the lug nuts--usually so tightly that you're screwed if you ever need to change the tire on your own. If they hand torqued them, then okay. They're checking to make sure that none of the lug nuts have come loose after driving it for awhile--but they sure shouldn't be charging for it.

Yes, they can put on tires without doing an alignment. They shouldn't, and usually it's something you pay for when you get the tires, but they can.

Here's how you tell whether you need an alignment: when you are driving on a nice level stretch of straight road, at, say 35MPH, take your hands off of the wheel. Your car should generally continue to track straight (it will drift some over time, but it shouldn't be sudden). If you find that you need to grab the wheel to keep the car in the lane, it needs to be aligned, otherwise you're fine.

Don't always trust the dealer. We had one--one of the top in the area--where every time we took a car in for service, something else--not covered--would soon be found wrong. The most glaring was when we took my husband's Charger in for service. We got it home and, when he got out he automatically locked the driver's door. When he went to get back in he found that he couldn't unlock it. The dealer said that someone must have tried to break into it and snapped the plastic lock lift. If we'd bring it back (they'd do the towing) they'd fix the locks. He hadn't locked the passenger side, so we could still get in. He took the door panels off and we found that both of the lock lifts had been disconnected and simply dropped inside. Last time we ever used that dealer.

Don't even get me started on how badly the dealer (a different one) screwed up my Stealth XT. I don't even think that was, unlike the lock incident, done on purpose, but I ended up having to replace the engine when they finished, and she never was the same. I still hate them with the fire of 1000 suns.

I now have three independent mechanics that I can use, any of whom I would trust with my life. When you think about it, that's exactly what you are doing anytime you let anyone work on your car.

[punchnpie]

My obvious lack of knowledge in this area is showing.

Re the torquing first - I think it was hand done since the guy was kneeling beside the car. This seemed like a routine thing (it was done to punch jr's tires after he got them put on) and the dealership guy knew what I was talking about and didn't say the tire shop had done anything wrong.

Dealership vs someplace else - I like the dealership and it doesn't cost me anymore for a 30 point check and oil change than a regular oil change at Jiffy Lube. Plus the dealership is 4 minutes away; I don't know where I'd have to go for an oil change.  This ain't the big city. I like the same guy looking at my car each time and short of a major increase in the price, I'm happy with the dealership. Plus, as I mentioned, they've never suggested anything other than a tire rotation before, so it's not like they are constantly coming to me with 'oh, you need to have this done' suggestions.

I just looked at the work order and saw this, "rec (recommend?) 4 wheel alignment. Still at factory settings." Does this help with the analysis? What would be wrong with the wheels still at the factory setting? OK, obviously I should have said 'wheel' and not 'tire.' This is not my area of expertise.

OK, here's the next thing. He said that the transmission fluid was dark and suggested that I get it flushed at the next oil change (which probably won't be until early spring for me). He said that was usual once you get around 30,000 miles, I'm at 25,500. Is this true? I have heard horror stories of transmissions 'going out.' Is this because the fluid wasn't replaced in a timely manner? Why would it cost a lot to replace fluid?

My Hyundai has been a great car. I guess now that I've had it for awhile it needs a little maintenance, which is understandable, I just don't want to be any more stupid about this stuff than I am already. We never had a car when I was married and my father always took his in to the Mercedes people; I just don't come from car-repairing stock and never heard anything about how cars operate while growing up.

[huckle]

Re: the transmission fluid - it depends on whether you have a standard or an automatic.  Many automatics have recommended fluid flushes around 50,000 miles.  For me a transmission flush is around $130. 

Re: the alignment - some tire places, even big chains, don't have alignment machines and so, they then recommend you take it for an alignment.  So, that doesn't surprise me. 

But, just because you get new tires doesn't mean you NEED an alignment.  On my last car which I bought used with 20,000+ miles (and had not had an alignment), I drove until it was over 100,000 miles, put on two new sets of tires during the period, and still it never needed an alignment.

[lasquires]

I drove a 2003 Santa Fe to 125,000 miles before it started encountering problems. They're good cars. Punch may still have some warranty left--as Hyundai warranties their vehicles up to 10 years--unless she bought it used, as the warranty does not transfer to the next owner. If she inherited from a family member, there might be a way to work it out.

There's an easy way to check when your transmission fluid should be changed: look at the owner's manual. It gives the factory-recommended intervals for all routine maintenance. I looked it up really quick, and yours should be done at 30,000, so getting it done at the next oil change is exactly correct.

Alignment is a pretty standard thing. I had a Nissan in college that needed it done a couple of times, and we had it done on our Santa Fe the last time we got new tires. I don't think it's a completely outrageous thing for your mechanic to suggest. Do the test described above (take your hands off the wheel on a straight stretch of road and see if the car stays straight) for your own peace of mind.

[anon99]

When I had my tires replaced, I did go back to have them torqued (nuts tightened) after 100 km.  It is free and ensures that they are on properly.  I haven't had the wheels aligned after new tires were installed, as other posters said these are independent of each other.

Like punchpie, I have a 2005 car and still bring it in for regular maintenance.

[alto_stratus]

If your car is at 25k miles, I recommend getting familiar with the suggested maintenance schedule for your car, because this is around the time (25-30k) you should be doing a first check-up (the next big one will be around 50-60k miles; save up a little for that one in case something needs to be replaced).  Your dealer should be able to give you a copy of the recommended maintenance schedule so you can look up these things and make an informed decision about what you need to have done and when.  I learned this the hard way, but don't recommend that.

Here's a basic one:

At 30k miles
    Replace air filter
    Replace wiper blades
    Replace fuel filter
    Replace spark plugs
    Replace pcv valve
    Flush coolant from radiator
    Flush transmission fluid 
    Change oil & filter 
    Rotate tires & check brakes

At 60k miles
    Flush coolant
    Flush transmission fluid
    Replace spark-plugs, & wires
    Replace pcv valve
    Replace air filter
    Replace timing belt (most 4 cyl cars )
    Rotate & balance tires     
    Inspect brakes, hoses
    Inspect coolant hoses
    Inspect engine drive belt
    Inspect CV joints
    Inspect struts / shocks
    Inspect tierods   
    Inspect ball joints   

As for the transmission fluid, yes, changing it about every 25k sounds about right, but you can check it to see how bad (or good) it is, and whether it needs to be sooner or later.  This video shows how to check the level, and while you're doing that, you can also check the color.
Video of how to check transmission fluid level:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REZcXMpnADc
Picture of transmission fluid at various stages:  http://www.fixacar.net/transfluid.htm

As you can see, when new, transmission fluid is a nice light pink color.  When old, it gets a darker, dingy rusty reddish color.  That is a sign it needs to be replaced. 

Here's a little more about the function of transmission fluid: (snipped from here - http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4969279_what-does-transmission-fluid-do.html)

Provides Hydraulic Power -
The main function of transmission fluid is to provide the hydraulic (fluid) power used by an automatic transmission to perform its basic functions. All automatic transmission functions--gear changing, transmission engagement and disengagement, and downshifting--require the force provided by transmission fluid. Unlike manual transmissions, which use manually operated clutches, gear shifts, and linkages, an automatic transmission uses transmission fluid to operate those transmission components. Pressurized transmission fluid provides the physical force, or pressure, to perform automatic transmission functions.

Lubricates and Cools -
As transmission fluid flows throughout an automatic transmission, it lubricates the transmission gears and bands and helps to keep transmission operating temperatures reduced. Just like an engine uses motor oil to lubricate and cool its inner parts, a transmission uses automatic transmission fluid to perform the same functions. Heat and friction are natural by-products of automatic transmission gear and band function; transmission fluid reduces heat and friction and ultimately increases automatic transmission life.

And if you want to see what a transmission fluid change looks like:
http://g35driver.com/forums/engine-drivetrain-forced-induction-diy/271231-diy-manual-transmission-fluid-clutch-fluid-change-pics.html

[aandsdean]

Torquing:  especially if you have aluminum wheels, it's a good idea to have the lugnuts checked after a few days.  This has to do with a couple of things.  First, the lugnuts sit in a little conical depression in the wheels (thing about a female cone and a male cone that fit together).  If the wheel isn't exactly true to the studs when the nuts are tightened down (not unlikely, given the gravitational force pulling the wheel downwards when the car sits on the lift), a little driving may move the wheel into alignment with the lugnuts, which will indeed lead them to be looser than spec.  Potential problem.

Metallurgically, the studs and the lugnuts are ferrous and considerably harder and stronger than the aluminum wheels, and the wheels may compress a little further after the initial tightening of the lugnuts, even with an overtorquing pneumatic impact driver.  This, too, can lead to some loosening of the lugnuts.

And, once they're loose, they can and will continue to loosen.  What's holding them on in the friction between that little cone-shaped hole in the wheel and the male, cone-shaped shoulder of the lugnut, plus the friction between the lugnut and the stud,  Loose lugnuts are very bad news.

They shouldn't charge you to retighten them after you buy tires.

And, I've been shocked by how many tire stores don't check alignment or offer it with new tires.  For example, one of many reasons NOT to be tires from Wal-Mart is that they don't offer alignment services at all.

PS:  Rutted Midwestern roads are HELL on wheel alignment.

[punchnpie]

Thank you everyone. I will ask for the maintenance schedule. Thanks alto_stratus , very much. I knew I could count on forumites for answers to my questions - answers that didn't involve 'how stupid can you be' from a certain person who lives in my house. And while the internet is great, getting info from trusted sources is better. Now I feel I have a certain amount of background that will help me as I look up stuff online.

The tire place didn't charge me to torque the tires/wheels, so that isn't an issue. I think the mechanic at the dealership said around $130-160 for the transmission. He was running a lot of numbers past me at the time.

He also recommended an induction flush, but I looked that up and found it was unnecessary and basically a money maker for the mechanic. I'm just glad I didn't hand over my credit card and tell him to do everything. Whew.

I am 50+ and this is my first car. I want to protect my baby, but I don't want to be a sucker, either.

[scampster]

Thank you everyone. I will ask for the maintenance schedule.

PnP, you probably don't even need to ask about it - just open your glovebox and find the book that came with your car - it should have the checklist.

[alto_stratus]

I think if it's a used car, they don't always give you the owner's manual.  But I believe Hyundai offers owner's manuals (2003-present) through their website: https://www.myhyundai.com/  You may need the VIN number to register.