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[jaypr]

Hello all,

I'm a recent college graduate with some questions in life at the moment and any words of advice would be appreciated.

I majored in Civil Engineering with Construction/Environmental Engineering specialty at Rutgers University.

My overall GPA is 2.85 and my major GPA is 3.3.

From doing some research, I understand that my GPA is way too low to go to any decent graduate school (engineering).

My circumstances have been rough in freshman and sophomore year and my GPA really suffered.
But I picked it up junior and senior year with 3.35~3.7 and made the dean's list towards the end.

I'm actively searching for a permanent job but haven't been so lucky. But, I'm working 3 jobs at the moment and been putting aside some of it for possible grad school. I haven't taken the GRE yet, only did some practice ones but I'm expecting 700~740Q.

So with that, my question is...

1) Would it be possible for me to go to a decent grad school and if so which ones? (best value if possible)

2) If you don't think that grad school is best option for me, then what would you recommend?


Thank you very much for reading and I would really appreciate any comments.

[havesometea]

You major GPA does not seem too bad, given that it's in engineering. You could consider taking additional undergrad-level classes at a local CC to raise your overall GPA, especially if there are lower level classes that you did poorly in previously that you could now repeat. It's good that your grades trend upward. However, since your GPA is on the lower end, you'll want to do as well on the GRE as you can. I think it is tougher to do well in math now -- as a 740Q (previously considered an OK, but somewhat sub-par score for sci/eng) is now just seen as a 79th percentile. The percentiles were available before, but I think that breaking 700 implied a certain level of competence, and there didn't seem to be much real difference between scores in the 700-740 range (although there did seem to be a difference between scores in that range and scores in the 750-800 range). So you'll want to do better than your current prediction -- at least a 750 on the old test, which will get your percentile into the low 80s.

[scampster]

I'm in engineering and my undergrad GPA does not look much different from yours, so that in and of itself isn't a deal breaker. Can you get good reference letters? Have you done undergrad research? Do you want to do a PhD or just a masters degree?

If you want to do a PhD and you have a faculty member from your undergrad vouch for you that you are PhD material, your chances aren't as bad as you think they are if you are geographically flexible. You probably won't get a funded position at MIT or Stanford, but there are a lot of strong big programs in the midwest that want domestic students who can do research and write well, neither of which are necessarily reflected in one's GPA. But for any of those programs, you should be connecting with faculty who do research you are interested in to see if they might be willing to take you on - if a faculty member wants you, odds are you will get in.

[polly_mer]

Scampster is right on this.  If someone will vouch for your ability to do research, then your chances of getting into a pretty good funded program are excellent.  Lots of people in engineering have not-so-great GPA's, especially in those intro classes.

Can you find someone who will let you do a master's degree or work as an assistant to get your research chops?  Would someone at your undergraduate program be able to arrange an internship for you with an employer?  People who can speak to research chops don't have to be academics.

[snowbound]

You could consider taking additional undergrad-level classes at a local CC to raise your overall GPA

Taking more undergrad classes--whether at a local CC or at your old school--will not raise your official GPA.  The GPA for your undergraduate degree is cast in stone once you graduate. 

That's not to say you shouldn't take more classes.  You would list the extra classes separately on your applications, and a couple of As in relevant classes would help offset the comparatively low GPA in your undergrad degree.

[jaypr]

@havesometea, snowbound

I'm going to have to find out through my school if they allow people to do that.

I've heard that on the transcript, it would state the GPA at graduation, and the new GPA (after taking extra courses) separately. I'm not sure if schools would look at only one of them or both.

And as for taking extra courses, you recommend taking it at CC and is that because of the costs?
I heard that some schools don't really respect CC course credits/GPA and I also know someone who went to NYU to take some courses there instead of CC. (not sure the reason why, I should have asked)

And lastly, how important would Verbal section be for an engineering student like me?
Because, from reading some posts here people tend to just talk about the Q score.

[jaypr]

I'm in engineering and my undergrad GPA does not look much different from yours, so that in and of itself isn't a deal breaker. Can you get good reference letters? Have you done undergrad research? Do you want to do a PhD or just a masters degree?

If you want to do a PhD and you have a faculty member from your undergrad vouch for you that you are PhD material, your chances aren't as bad as you think they are if you are geographically flexible. You probably won't get a funded position at MIT or Stanford, but there are a lot of strong big programs in the midwest that want domestic students who can do research and write well, neither of which are necessarily reflected in one's GPA. But for any of those programs, you should be connecting with faculty who do research you are interested in to see if they might be willing to take you on - if a faculty member wants you, odds are you will get in.

Thank you for your reply,

To answer your questions,
No, I've set my goal to finish graduate school if I could get in, and I'm not thinking about PhD at the moment.
That's because I'm not even sure if I could get into a graduate school, and I'm also not sure if I could excel in it. Deep inside, I have the confidence now to do better if I could go back to school but reality might not be as friendly.

I have not done undergraduate research simply because I was not thinking about graduate school then (even up until end of junior year because I had to recover my GPA first). A professor asked me once if I could help him with one but I had to decline because I had to work to pay for tuition and also take courses in summer to re-do some of the courses I did bad in.

I regret that now, but what can I do. I want to do what is best for me in my situation to be able to get into a decent graduate school now that I have more confidence, and actually have more interest in it than when I was just studying to recover my GPA back to near norm.

At the moment, I'm geographically flexible and will stay this way to be able to increase my chances.

What would be some names of schools I could have chances at?
I've actually registered and paid for USNEWS rankings but I believe rankings are just rankings and words from people who actually went through it would be much better.

[havesometea]

I think schools treat postbac classes differently -- some seem to count them more than others, or perhaps it was just because my undergrad classes were from so long ago. However, either way, the schools I applied to seemed happy to see recent coursework completed with good grades, even though my undergrad GPA was fine. This is what made me think that more recent work can help clear up doubts (whatever their origin). I was actually amused by the number of people I spoke to who seemed to think I might have lost my academic abilities after staying home as long as I had.

And yes, I recommend the CCs because of costs. The local state U has outrageously high fees for students not enrolled in degree programs. I have found that the quality of classes at the CC varies, but there are definitely excellent professors teaching demanding, rewarding classes -- you just might need to do some research to find them. Don't be afraid to contact people at the CC and get advice. I found program chairs to be quite helpful. Also, once you have found a professor you like, you can ask fellow students about classes/instructors they think are comparable in quality.

I have had people ask about my verbal scores/writing ability. I think the verbal section is important even in engineering and the sciences, as you will need to be able to communicate your research findings.

[jaypr]

Scampster is right on this.  If someone will vouch for your ability to do research, then your chances of getting into a pretty good funded program are excellent.  Lots of people in engineering have not-so-great GPA's, especially in those intro classes.

Can you find someone who will let you do a master's degree or work as an assistant to get your research chops?  Would someone at your undergraduate program be able to arrange an internship for you with an employer?  People who can speak to research chops don't have to be academics.

Those intro classes are what really ruined my overall GPA.

I do have a professor who was a vice-president of an engineering company although he retired and now he is working as a senior adviser. I would have to get in contact with him and ask.

About internship, I do have 1 internship experience with one of the Top 15 companies on Top Contractors list on ENR. It went well but the year after, it was just not possible because it was too far (1.5 hr drive each way) and I had to take summer courses (50 minutes drive each way from home the opposite way from work).

As for trying to get my hands on research or an assistant, I would have to meet, email, call my professors and ask them about it right? Should I explain to them the situation I'm in?

[polly_mer]

As for trying to get my hands on research or an assistant, I would have to meet, email, call my professors and ask them about it right? Should I explain to them the situation I'm in?

Yes, that's exactly what you do.  If the people who know you best will vouch for you and help work their networks for you, then you have a shot.

I disagree with the advice to take classes at a CC to help your GPA.  Taking extra classes somewhere may help, but few CC's will have the kind of classes that will raise your skills in a way to make people notice.  For example, taking an advanced engineering course and doing well could be a benefit.  Retaking calc I is pointless at this phase and conveys the opposite of the message you want to send.

[scampster]

Jaypr, do you like research? If you are ambivalent and since you don't want to do a PhD, you might just look into doing a one year coursework based masters degree instead of a two-year research based degree. Especially if you are in environmental engineering, where often a masters is an entry level degree (and consulting companies rarely care about having done research for your masters degree). Yes, you have to pay for it, but one year of tuition plus one year of a decent paying job (probably a minimum of 50k) is a better bargain to me instead of 2-3 years of an assistantship to get free grad school.

If you think you might want to do a PhD eventually, scratch all that, since the research based masters will be good for you, but some faculty don't like to take on masters only students (as the return on the investment is more difficult since by the time you really start producing, you are leaving).

As for the verbal section, some faculty value it highly, but I also know plenty of 400 V scores in engineering PhD programs (and top ranked ones at that). It really depends on the faculty member and the department.

As for specific schools, you need to figure out which schools have faculty doing something you are interested in. You can start with the rankings for the field, but browse the webpages. Some schools are better at some things than others, so it depends on your research interests. Check out which programs have graduate courses that interest you. Having been at both a fancy private school and big state schools, in my experience, the alumni network  and school connections for finding engineering jobs was much more impressive at the big state schools.

[havesometea]

I would defer to polly_mer, but my thought was that your technical GPA was OK, so you might have stumbled in classes like English 101 or sociology, which you could easily take over. So, you have to consider your individual situation. In my case, I added some higher-level math classes (linear algebra, diff eq) and some computer science/programming classes which my UG career had not included. I had pretty much maxed out the CC offerings by the time I sent out applications, however.

[jaypr]

Jaypr, do you like research? If you are ambivalent and since you don't want to do a PhD, you might just look into doing a one year coursework based masters degree instead of a two-year research based degree. Especially if you are in environmental engineering, where often a masters is an entry level degree (and consulting companies rarely care about having done research for your masters degree). Yes, you have to pay for it, but one year of tuition plus one year of a decent paying job (probably a minimum of 50k) is a better bargain to me instead of 2-3 years of an assistantship to get free grad school.

If you think you might want to do a PhD eventually, scratch all that, since the research based masters will be good for you, but some faculty don't like to take on masters only students (as the return on the investment is more difficult since by the time you really start producing, you are leaving).

As for the verbal section, some faculty value it highly, but I also know plenty of 400 V scores in engineering PhD programs (and top ranked ones at that). It really depends on the faculty member and the department.

As for specific schools, you need to figure out which schools have faculty doing something you are interested in. You can start with the rankings for the field, but browse the webpages. Some schools are better at some things than others, so it depends on your research interests. Check out which programs have graduate courses that interest you. Having been at both a fancy private school and big state schools, in my experience, the alumni network  and school connections for finding engineering jobs was much more impressive at the big state schools.

I would prefer 1 year coursework based Masters Degree instead of the research one.
But, I was not aware that such choices existed. Is this for all schools(or most schools)?

After I read your reply, I did some research through gradschools.com website and there seem to be a lot of schools listed even after narrowing it down to civil engineering and eastern US region.

And from some searching, I got myself some questions,
1) I would like to narrow it down by the type of research they do but is this a required step if I plan to do coursework based Masters Degree?

2) I would certainly browse for research areas but my GPA is holding back so I would like to narrow it down to maybe requirements of schools first(GPA,GRE). Is there a useful website I could look into for this?
(because MIT grad school research could be very interesting to me but if I can't meet the requirements it's no good)

3) What are some pros/cons about Online and Campus type Masters Degree?

[octoprof]

My experience is not in engineering. In my field a so-so undergrad GPA can be overcome by excellent graduate admissions test scores (in my field, that's the GMAT, in yours something else).

Your undergrad grades aren't horrible, but you'll want a good admissions test score to balance them out, plus good recommendations.

[scampster]

I would prefer 1 year coursework based Masters Degree instead of the research one.
But, I was not aware that such choices existed. Is this for all schools(or most schools)?

They are becoming more and more common. Cornell, Stanford, MIT and the like have had such programs for a while. I think more and more programs are starting up because they can be cash cows. I'm not sure where a good list of which schools offer them (that might be cheaper than those I mentioned above). Be careful to pick an established program though - the best ones will have a solid cohort of students that work together, the worst ones you will be the only student in the cohort and be very isolated.

1) I would like to narrow it down by the type of research they do but is this a required step if I plan to do coursework based Masters Degree?

No. If you are paying your own way, you won't be doing research.

3) What are some pros/cons about Online and Campus type Masters Degree?

If you do it online, make sure it is ABET accredited. I would argue against online because being able to get help from your fellow students is often useful. I don't really know how online engineering programs work. Sorry I can't help there.