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[lyndonparker]

Fail on reading comprehension.

And basic human decency.

Exactly. As a counselor, or an instructor, you have a duty to serve ALL comers. The fact you exhibit prejudices that preclude you from serving gay, lesbian, transgender, or other potential clients precludes you from serving as a counselor.

[prytania3]

Fail on reading comprehension.

And basic human decency.

Exactly. As a counselor, or an instructor, you have a duty to serve ALL comers. The fact you exhibit prejudices that preclude you from serving gay, lesbian, transgender, or other potential clients precludes you from serving as a counselor.

Lyndon always has such a nice succinct way of putting things.

[sagit]

Attorneycjones - One of the fundamental issues that many of us are reacting to is that you appear to believe that a) homosexuality is a choice and b) it can be changed.  My understanding is that significant scientific evidence support the opposite conclusion - homosexuality is something one is born with and cannot be changed.  Thus, your argument is based on a religious view (which is not shared by all religious people) and not on scientific evidence.  This does not seem to be a promising position for someone striving to be an academic (and for the OP especially, someone who wants to be in a field based on science - counseling).  

I am willing to concede that there may be people who are gay who voluntarily choose to go into programs like the one you described to try to change who they are (but this is a most likely a minority at this point - most gay people, I would assume, just wish people like you would accept them as they are).  However, that is not the issue here.  To be come certified as a counselor, one needs to be willing to work with people where they are at, not where your beliefs are.    Therefore, consistently refusing to help people who are homosexual in any way other than your own personal belief system goes against what organizations like the American Counseling Association state about how practitioners should be trained (according to the article here: http://chronicle.com/article/Judge-Upholds-Dismissal-of/123704/).  Further, someone trained in counseling should be working from the best scientific evidence for how to help people.  Given that the scientific evidence does not support the concept of "praying away the gay", a good academic should reconsider that position.

[voxprincipalis]

Is not the following a fair summary of the conversation of the past day?

Me:  "Homosexuality is disordered.  Some people who have homosexuality want help - because they know intellectually and morally that it is disordered." <snip>
Everyone else:  "You racist!  You bigot!  You are terrifying!  You are inhuman!  You are horrible and evil and wicked and cruel and mean!"

Yep, actually, that's pretty much it right there. If you say bigoted, horrible, evil things, then your statements demonstrate that you are a bigoted, horrible, evil person, and you will be identified and labeled as such.

As for this part:

because they know intellectually and morally that it is disordered

Let me rewrite that for you more accurately.

because they know intellectually and morally that it is disordered I and others like me have bullied and persecuted them into feeling shame that they are Not Like Me, and have used sophistry (look it up) to try to convince them that the shame and suffering that they are feeling ON ACCOUNT OF HAVING BEEN BULLIED AND PERSECUTED is actually some kind of "intellectual and moral knowledge" of being "disordered" (in other words, "if you had been an obedient wife, I wouldn't have had to punch you in the face, so if your head hurts, it's your fault") -- which, on account of its having been categorized as both "intellectual" and "moral," is therefore considered to be inalienably correct, thus trapping the victims of your bullying in a prison which I, and others like me, have neatly convinced them (wrongly) is of their own making.

Less succinct, perhaps, than your version, but considerably more accurate.

VP

[lasquires]

I think this conversation can be summarized as follows:

acj: I believe that homosexuality is an aberration that must be eradicated/cured. My evidence is my Bible and my personal sense that homosexuality is icky.

Fora: Your argument fails to meet even the most basic standards of scholarly discourse, in which religious dogma and personal feelings do not count as evidence. Your argument is a belief that is founded in prejudice and untethered to any kind of scientific reality as people who study that reality understand it.

acj: Your failure to uncritically accept my beliefs as valid and to encourage other people to purse paths founded on those beliefs constitutes intolerance.

Fora: Those beliefs and the pursuit of an agenda founded on them have frightening real-world consequences for the lives and freedoms of real people. Note the ways in which this has played out for other groups deemed aberrant by society in the past.

acj: Real people and their lives and freedoms are irrelevant to this conversation. What really matters is that I and the OP are allowed to believe whatever we want regardless of the intellectual merit of those beliefs or their real-world consequences, and you must accept it without argument or be tarred with the label of Intolerance.

Fora: <headdesk>

[helpful]

Attorney cjones, please be so kind as to say what the 'gay agenda' is?

[dr_alcott]

Thank you, Sagit, Vox, and Lasquires.

[glowdart]

Okay, so here's the challenge as I see it.  The OP & the attorney hold beliefs which will not be tolerated in mainstream higher educational institutions because said institutions value rational thought and academic discourse over faith and personal beliefs.

Those personal beliefs are, however, not only tolerated but accepted at some select institutions which are then themselves not accepted by mainstream society and possibly national accrediting bodies.  (And again, attorney, CUA is not going to tolerate your hate speech, no matter how much you want to believe that it will.  The Church is the people, not the dogma; the Church also has a long-standing tradition of valuing free will and questioning faith.)

So the choices are:  
Keep the intended career path and:

1. Go to a place where no one will challenge your beliefs and get a degree that will severely limit your ability to get a job; if you do manage to get a job anywhere other than in a religious institution which shares your rigid belief system, then you'll quickly find yourself out of a job because social workers and counselors cannot be bringing their own faith into their professional work.  (Jobs at institutions sympathetic to your beliefs are hard to get because there are so few of them.)

2. Go to a place where you will have your beliefs challenged, where you will need to learn to accept that there are all sorts of people on this planet, where you will be trained and expected to work with all sorts of people without letting your personal faith or prejudices influence your work, and where your personal beliefs have not a damned thing to do with your chosen profession.  

OR:
If you refuse to accept either of those choices, then go into missionary work or become a religious figure or otherwise choose a profession where you are actually getting specifically paid to mix your work life and your personal faith.  There are some of these options, but social work isn't one of them, and neither is counseling.  

It's really not that complicated.  

[lasquires]

Actually, there is a third option.

3) Get a counseling degree from a reputable theological seminary. Dallas, Denver, Moody, etc. are all conservative seminaries that offer good counseling degrees, and I know many Christian counselors who are gainfully employed with degrees from places like this. Be aware, however, that even at these places that teach an approach to counselor filtered through a biblical worldview, unscientific and overtly ideological demagoguery will not be rewarded. Furthermore, it will be impossible to get an advanced degree from a place like this online. You will have to be physically present.

Even among evangelical seminaries, Liberty U is considered a backwater. I have a relative who used to be the Dean of Admissions at one of the seminaries listed above, and they used to send their application packets to Liberty students in unmarked envelopes, because the mailroom would throw them away. Yes, at Liberty U, even the bastions of mainstream evangelical theology are considered too liberal and too threatening.

[oldfullprof]

Bookmarking.

[aandsdean]

Actually, there is a third option.

3) Get a counseling degree from a reputable theological seminary. Dallas, Denver, Moody, etc. are all conservative seminaries that offer good counseling degrees, and I know many Christian counselors who are gainfully employed with degrees from places like this. Be aware, however, that even at these places that teach an approach to counselor filtered through a biblical worldview, unscientific and overtly ideological demagoguery will not be rewarded. Furthermore, it will be impossible to get an advanced degree from a place like this online. You will have to be physically present.

Even among evangelical seminaries, Liberty U is considered a backwater. I have a relative who used to be the Dean of Admissions at one of the seminaries listed above, and they used to send their application packets to Liberty students in unmarked envelopes, because the mailroom would throw them away. Yes, at Liberty U, even the bastions of mainstream evangelical theology are considered too liberal and too threatening.

Apparently, at "Liberty" (I always found this a deeply ironic name for Falwell U), all that respect for law'n'order doesn't extend to not committing the federal felony of tampering with the mails.

[helpful]

I notice the OP hasn't returned. Great example of a willingness to engage in a conversation, attorneycjones?

[mouseman]

I notice the OP hasn't returned. Great example of a willingness to engage in a conversation, attorneycjones?

Probably hanging out with his friends, complaining about how liberals suppress honest discussion. 

[oldfullprof]

It happens...  :)

[cj405]

Sorry, I read the first few pages before Thanksgiving and missed some posts in between, so maybe this has been mentioned already, but:

OP, Liberty University sounds like the perfect place for you.  Lots of luck!