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Author Topic: Should this be kicked up to the dean?  (Read 17269 times)
username2
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2011, 05:22:10 PM »

To play devil's advocate: what if the advisor doesn't think that OP's friend actually wrote the paper in question? And the concern was that he didn't want to come to do an oral defense in person because he needed additional time to learn the plagiarized material?

I'm not saying this is the explanation, or that all the other nonsense mentioned is right, but all the PhD programs I know have various qualifying exams, so it would be fishy if someone just turned in the paper and made it difficult to schedule the oral exam soon after turning in a passing paper.
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punchnpie
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2011, 05:55:51 PM »

Thanks for the comments. I wanted them to ferment a little (here and in my mind) before coming back.

Just for the record, at my doctoral program, the exam at the end of course work was called the 'general exam.' That's what I'm used to calling such an exam. The 'exam' was actually a paper and an oral defense. Only after successfully doing both could the student proceed to work on the diss proposal, and only after the proposal was submitted and there was a successful oral defense, could the student go on to the diss work.  Other places call this process by other names; I can't believe we're getting into such a jumble here; you guys know the drill.

I will suggest that my friend look into appealing the matter and learning the process, especially as to whether it would have to appear by the actions of other committee members that but for the chair's actions, he would have passed.  If it is truly as he's told me, then he should appeal - the academic issue is certainly important, but the economics aren't trivial. This guy is broke (the wife was at home with the multiple kids, so no 2nd job to fall back on). They are trying to figure how one of them can go back to school quickly, which may be easier than trying to get a job, especially if he has to try for jobs out of town. I would do whatever I could to keep food on the table and keep myself in my program.

Why do academics seemingly go out of their way to eff with students? What is the big deal about scheduling a defense? Lord knows I had to work around multiple faculty schedules to schedule my diss defense - which had to be so late in the term that technically I graduated in the following year, not the year of my defense - all to satisfy others' schedules. I've just never heard of not scheduling a defense and then deciding to fail a student.

Thanks, all.
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marigolds
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2011, 06:00:08 PM »

Could it possibly be the other way around, PnP?  At my place, they won't schedule the oral defense until you've passed the writtens.  Could he have failed (in the eyes of this one examiner, at least) and that's why they won't schedule the oral?

In any case, I'm sorry it's happening.  It sounds incredibly stressful and traumatic for your friend.
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zharkov
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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2011, 08:05:02 AM »


Why do academics seemingly go out of their way to eff with students? What is the big deal about scheduling a defense? Lord knows I had to work around multiple faculty schedules to schedule my diss defense - which had to be so late in the term that technically I graduated in the following year, not the year of my defense - all to satisfy others' schedules. I've just never heard of not scheduling a defense and then deciding to fail a student.


OP, I have to suspect that your pal either left out some details or does not quite understand the process.  Or something of that nature.

At my school, we have set defense dates that students need to sign up for.  The downside is that if students don't sign up for one of these dates, they miss the cut off to graduate.
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polly_mer
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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2011, 08:42:30 AM »


Why do academics seemingly go out of their way to eff with students? What is the big deal about scheduling a defense? Lord knows I had to work around multiple faculty schedules to schedule my diss defense - which had to be so late in the term that technically I graduated in the following year, not the year of my defense - all to satisfy others' schedules. I've just never heard of not scheduling a defense and then deciding to fail a student.


OP, I have to suspect that your pal either left out some details or does not quite understand the process.  Or something of that nature.

At my school, we have set defense dates that students need to sign up for.  The downside is that if students don't sign up for one of these dates, they miss the cut off to graduate.

Not all programs work like that.  In my very small, friendly graduate program, the only rule on scheduling a defense of anything (qualifier, proposal, final dissertation) was that the proposed defense date could not be less than two weeks from the day on which the student went around asking people if their schedules were free.

I once had to make five rounds to get a date that worked for everyone more than a month out from my asking time.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 01:56:46 PM »

Punch, like you I think there may be some cultural issue at work here, and I agree that it may have fed into the defense scheduling as well. Putting together the information that your friend was having a hard time scheduling a defense (at least partially due to family-related issues) with the chair's comment that he shouldn't have any more children makes me think that the chair may have decided your friend isn't really serious about his academic career since he isn't prioritizing it and/or that he just isn't suitable for an academic career based upon his life choices.

There certainly are faculty members who see themselves as gatekeepers of the profession, and I know some who would not hesitate to make this kind of a judgment if faced with a student who did not seem to be complying with the program's expectations. While these are folks who would object vociferously to the idea that their behavior is racist because they would never dream of calling anyone names or of advocating anything like segregation, the result of their attitudes can certainly be racist when it acts to preserve a certain set of white-educated-class norms and expectations within academia.

Again, as others have pointed out, there's no telling whether we (or you) are getting the whole story here, but I would argue that there are certainly grounds for kicking this up to the Dean. I am at a university with a highly diverse student body, and I see this kind of culturally blind interpretation ("If s/he were actually serious about his/her academic career, s/he would be doing X.") all the time.
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attorneycjones
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2011, 03:00:34 PM »

(Even though I am a licensed attorney, the following is not legal advice, just a comment.)

I am most concerned about the comment that your friend should not have any more children.  That sounds like parenthood discrimination, which is an actionable form of gender discrimination under Title IX (and since your friend is a graduate student, he's probably an employee, which would bring it under Title VII as well), and maybe any number of state laws. 
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offthemarket
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 03:13:36 PM »

I think the best potential resolution to this situation is that the student is quietly shuffled to be advised by a different faculty member and allowed to continue the defense.  I think the Dean would be interested in making this happen because of the suggestion of discrimination against the student based on his reproductive status.

Before filing a formal appeal, an informal meeting might resolve this? But clearly, moving quickly is important.
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tenured_feminist
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 08:32:47 AM »

Curious about the denouement. Any update, Punch?
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proftowanda
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 07:18:43 PM »

(Even though I am a licensed attorney, the following is not legal advice, just a comment.)

I am most concerned about the comment that your friend should not have any more children.  That sounds like parenthood discrimination, which is an actionable form of gender discrimination under Title IX (and since your friend is a graduate student, he's probably an employee, which would bring it under Title VII as well), and maybe any number of state laws. 

I would agree in general, but the comment may lack context -- such as if it came in response to the student's repeated reluctance to schedule the required oral defense owing to what the OP termed "family obligations." 

For example, if the student actually said, repeatedly, that the student's children's schedule took priority over the scheduling of a requirement for the degree, complicated by the schedules of five faculty members, well . . . we need to know more about what actually was said on both sides, about how long this has been going on, etc. 

I have endured a similar situation, in which the student communicated that it was the faculty who ought to change their schedules for the student's children's schedules (and, I would note, many of the faculty on the committee also had young children but did not raise this as a reason and had offered many available times).

On the other hand, when I was trying to schedule my doctoral defense, I had a committee member who would not meet on Fridays -- the only day that I was not teaching, ABD, several hours away.  When I was only weks away from dissertating or being fired by my dean, my advisor finally stepped in and got the defense scheduled.  (And, of course, the recalcitrant committee member turned out to not have read my diss., anyway.)
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