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[rose_fingered_dawn]

Asking on behalf of someone I went to undergrad with: what is the reputation of the Center of Medieval Studies at the University of Toronto? Speaking in terms of ranking and placement. What is a good resource for finding out rankings of medieval studies programs? She's coming from classics, and has developed some very late interests, so I don't think she really knows where to start with looking at medieval studies grad programs. Thanks!

[grantsmaven]

In my opinion, the best plan is for her to define her interests and approach first; then she can start looking for faculty members who are working for that area(s) regardless of department/program. My strong suggestion would be to continue to look at classics and comparative literature departments (or art history if she's interested in material culture) rather than interdisciplinary medieval studies programs.

[rose_fingered_dawn]

Interesting. Wouldn't a PhD from a medieval studies program make you more employable than going into comp lit or art history? Presumably with a medieval studies background you'd have a stronger and more holistic grounding in your time period than if you went into an art history or comp lit program and worked with only one or two profs who matched your interests and were able to take only a few relevant courses? Someone with a PhD in medieval studies could apply at history, comp lit, English, art history, and classics departments and thus would have a better chance getting a job, I'd thought.

Anyway, I think she doesn't know precisely what she wants to focus on, so an interdisciplinary medieval studies program, where she knows she'll be able to use her Greek and Latin and could explore the field a bit before committing to a topic, sounds best to her. Back to the original question: rankings? I'm in classics grad school myself so I'm no help to her. She was thinking of Toronto because of the close ties between the classics and med. studies department there, but is concerned about rankings too.

[janewales]

 The University of Toronto is a top-ranked institution (in the recent THE rankings, it's #19 in the world overall, and #10 for arts and humanities). The medieval studies program is very well-established, and there are Toronto medievalists everywhere. I don't know, though, what the recent placement statistics are like. As with any interdisciplinary program, it's important to have a clear sense from the start that, despite the many wonderful opportunities in the program, one will most likely need to apply to single-discipline departments at the end of things; that was certainly stressed to my cohort, and we did very well on the job market, but it was a long time ago.

[merce]

I've always thought of Medieval Studies as tippy top of the top of Medieval Studies programs.
Of course, if you think about it, there aren't so many in the Americas to rank in the first place.


I don't think doing a Medieval Studies degree because you can't choose a discipline is a good idea. And that is regardless of the ranking of the school.  The ranking isn't going to do your work for you. You've got to know what you want to do and where you could see yourself in the future.

Hint: Comparative Literature and Medieval Studies Departments are not abundant; History and English jobs are not plentiful. Frankly, I don't think anyone wants to have Medieval anything on campuses anymore. In my discipline the job ads no longer ask for a medievalist but "pre-20th" or "pre-19th" and/or ask for Medieval & Renaissance or Renaissance and XVIIth or XVIIth & XVIIIth. By the time your friend graduates they will be asking for Medieval & Renaissance & XVIth & XVIIth & XVIIIth & XIXth-century specialists. I do not think there was a single Medieval only position in the disciplines (including Comparative Literature) to which I apply. Check the MLA job listings for an idea of how things are going.

Didn't they want to close the Comp Lit Centre at Toronto last year?
Ranking or no ranking, these disciplines are being axed, axed, axed.

[lasquires]

I've always thought of Medieval Studies as tippy top of the top of Medieval Studies programs.
Of course, if you think about it, there aren't so many in the Americas to rank in the first place.


I don't think doing a Medieval Studies degree because you can't choose a discipline is a good idea. And that is regardless of the ranking of the school.  The ranking isn't going to do your work for you. You've got to know what you want to do and where you could see yourself in the future.

Hint: Comparative Literature and Medieval Studies Departments are not abundant; History and English jobs are not plentiful. Frankly, I don't think anyone wants to have Medieval anything on campuses anymore. In my discipline the job ads no longer ask for a medievalist but "pre-20th" or "pre-19th" and/or ask for Medieval & Renaissance or Renaissance and XVIIth or XVIIth & XVIIIth. By the time your friend graduates they will be asking for Medieval & Renaissance & XVIth & XVIIth & XVIIIth & XIXth-century specialists. I do not think there was a single Medieval only position in the disciplines (including Comparative Literature) to which I apply. Check the MLA job listings for an idea of how things are going.

Didn't they want to close the Comp Lit Centre at Toronto last year?
Ranking or no ranking, these disciplines are being axed, axed, axed.

This is interesting. It seems like the medievalists at my school get all the best jobs their first time out as ABDs. That's purely anecdotal, and someone at a meeting did once mention to me that 600+ people were applying for medievalist jobs with just a few openings last year. So the market is either pretty good or really, really wretched depending on who you talk to. If possible, this person should research the job wikis and have a really frank discussion with someone who's experienced with hiring and/or job searching in this field.

[janewales]

In English, medieval is still quite robust; so's early modern. This year is a pretty good one in terms of opportunities; however, there could indeed be many, many people applying for these positions.

I can't speak to the situation in other disciplines, though.

[watermarkup]

I have a favorable impression of Toronto medievalists based on the very good people I know working there, and the very good people who have come out of the program. I don't know of any ranking of medieval studies programs, and I don't know who would be in a position to make one. Almost certainly, no one at all has the vaguest clue how the placement rates of various programs compare.

I don't know of a wiki or central job list for medieval studies. My impression is that most hires are made through disciplinary programs. (If anyone knows differently, please advise!) Your friend should check the classics wiki and see how many positions are advertised for medieval Latinists, since that's one place she may well end up.

Merce, I wish things were so healthy in my field! These days, about half the job ads ask for "any specialty (after 1800) welcome." I wish I were kidding. When a medievalist position is advertised, it might attract fewer than 20 qualified applicants, but positions come along only about once a year. Or two.

[hegemony]

I believe most people would say that Toronto is no. 1 in Medieval Studies in North America.  The medievalists in my department have done very well; I believe every one has ended up in a tenure-track job or the equivalent in the past ten years.  I wouldn't write off Medieval Studies. In Medieval Studies Toronto has a particularly philological bias, though, and a PhD from Toronto would want to make sure that they also have demonstrable literary expertise if they're aiming at English Department jobs in medieval, which are more plentiful than History Department jobs in medieval (unless you add in Islam, in which case you can write your own ticket).

[sugaree]

I believe most people would say that Toronto is no. 1 in Medieval Studies in North America.  The medievalists in my department have done very well; I believe every one has ended up in a tenure-track job or the equivalent in the past ten years.  I wouldn't write off Medieval Studies. In Medieval Studies Toronto has a particularly philological bias, though, and a PhD from Toronto would want to make sure that they also have demonstrable literary expertise if they're aiming at English Department jobs in medieval, which are more plentiful than History Department jobs in medieval (unless you add in Islam, in which case you can write your own ticket).

This is an important something to keep in mind. The medieval history job market is brutal (well, all history fields are brutal these days), but there is much interest in Islam and the Middle East. I'm not sure if Toronto's Medieval Studies Program specializes in that area so much as Medieval European history, but I do know that it is a top program. Good enough to overcome traditional disciplinary biases against "studies" programs.

But it's all still pretty bad in terms of the future of TT humanities employment, a fact to which attention must be paid.

[wegie]

Your friend should check the classics wiki and see how many positions are advertised for medieval Latinists, since that's one place she may well end up.

Medieval Latinists are like roc's eggs. Only rarer.

But Toronto is a truly top-notch programme, and it's a wonderful city.

[hegemony]

Medieval Latinists are actually not rare at all; it's just that most of them are disguised as English or history profs.  It's all about the spin.  I can think of ten or twelve nicely employed medieval Latinists without any problem.  The caveat is that Toronto and similar programs won't necessarily understand the need for spin, so the Latinist herself will need to do what's necessary to prepare to teach in an English or history department.  If she gets the right background along the path to the PhD, this won't be too much of a stretch.

[lasquires]

Medieval Latinists are actually not rare at all; it's just that most of them are disguised as English or history profs.  It's all about the spin.  I can think of ten or twelve nicely employed medieval Latinists without any problem.  The caveat is that Toronto and similar programs won't necessarily understand the need for spin, so the Latinist herself will need to do what's necessary to prepare to teach in an English or history department.  If she gets the right background along the path to the PhD, this won't be too much of a stretch.

Yes, I'm aware of one of these in our English department. He's been at the university, I believe, since Latin was spoken in everyday conversation.

[merce]

One thing, back in my day the placement stats for a program were included in brochures sent out by grad programs to prospective students. Then they were placed on websites. I think they are still available to those who ask even if the current market has made programs reluctant to post them.  They are a fair question and programs often have this readily available. I tell my students to ask and they always get the answer in a form suggesting the program is ready to answer.

The academic jobs wiki does include medieval positions. Just go to Classics, History, Italian etc. They are cross-listed. The MLA job list used to have a pre-1800 button. Now you do have to type in medieval or whatnot. There are not so many listings as to make weeding through the list cumbersome. If only! the Medieval Academy of America keeps a list but I don't know if they've updated it regularly this year.  I usually stick to MLA and jobs.ac.uk. Sometimes the Chronicle maybe (which yesterday showed 20 jobs when I searched "medieval" none of which were real jobs for some such as your friend or me).

About selling one's self to different departments:
I would have thought the "spin" would be easier to achieve at a Medieval Studies institution rather than from within a Classics Department. i.e., if you have a degree in Medieval Studies you can certainly apply for History, English, and Latin positions if you've taken the right classes, the right comps, and done the right diss topic while also doing some conference presentations in each and an article or few that keep those things covered.

It seems it would be more difficult to "spin" if you were in a Classics department asking for a German position. English I dunno. Maybe I should throw out my CV to English departments but I really, really don't know any English stuff so unless they specifically ask for a Pan-European Medievalist (I've seen this maybe twice) and it looks like they have very weak offerings in their language department I don't imagine I'd have a chance. Why would a Classics PhD?


Some of the very interesting Medieval Mediterranean scholars are from Toronto.
http://humweb.ucsc.edu/mediterraneanseminar/info/

NB: Michigan is making FOUR hires this year to compliment the fabulous Medieval Mediterranean people they already have on board there.

Of course, I always wonder, if this is hot now, won't it be pass'e by the time the undergrad has completed her PhD. Time to completion at Toronto is what, 10 years at least? The girl hasn't even started yet!
By then who knows what it will be.


Ok, time to go AFTDJ!

[snowbound]

Interesting. Wouldn't a PhD from a medieval studies program make you more employable than going into comp lit or art history? . . . Someone with a PhD in medieval studies could apply at history, comp lit, English, art history, and classics departments and thus would have a better chance getting a job, I'd thought.

Well, sure, a medieval studies PhD could apply for a TT job in such disciplines, but applying is not getting.  My department (English at a regional state school) wouldn't even consider someone without a PhD in English.  We'd need someone with a well-grounding in literary theory who had intensively studied lots of literature (or the equivalent in Comp/Rhet).  In addition to teaching, say, a Chaucer class, we'd need our medievalist hire to teach bread and butter courses like Intro to Lit and Freshman Comp, survey courses that cover from Beowulf through the Renaissance, and possibly other courses outside their specialization.  Our pile of applications would include many English PhDs whose specialty is medieval but who would be well able to teach English classes beyond their own specialty.  A minor (or second major) in Medieval Studies would be a nice addition, of course, but a PhD in English would be indispensable.    

I can't speak for history, art history, or classics departments, but I suspect the same may well apply there.