next »

[alpha_bet]

Well, it's me again, with another habilitationsprojekt question for anybody willing to field it:

I've made a verbal agreement with two chairs at University X for them to be my advisors.
I'm otherwise unconnected with University X (don't even live in the same city).
Meanwhile, since then, I've taken a postdoc at University Y... where they know I plan to write my book as a habilitationsprojekt, but we haven't really talked about it, so they don't know about the plan with University X.
I'll be here on the postdoc for four years, with hints that I could stay longer.

A friend recently suggested that I ask someone from University Y to also be on the committee (actually, she suggested further that it was even a little bit silly to do a habilitationsprojekt at University X when I have a job at University Y... but I like the work of the advisor at University X, and it's a more prestigious place, as well).

Any suggestions on how all that normally works?
Can I suggest to the professors at University X that someone from Y also be on the committee?
Or isn't that done?
Or am I even just being silly to do the projekt somewhere else?
Does the prestige of the university or the advisor count for anything in the end?
Any thoughts appreciated. 

[bacardiandlime]

This sounds like a rather strange arrangement. I don't know how it works everywhere, but I believe you would have to be officially enrolled at University X as a habilitation candidate.
Your employers at University Y may (reasonably) expect you to complete your habilitation with their university (since they are paying you!).

[thisisme]

There are two questions, I think: a) how would people at university Y react and b) will you be able to complete your habilitation at X at all.

a) They may expect you to do your habilitation at Y. It happens all the time that someone starts and then never does it because they move elsewhere before finishing. It is also usual to do a Postdoc and then move to another place to do habilitation. But planning ahead to do it in parallel likely will burn some bridges. Is working on the book the main part of your Postdoc or do you also do something else? If so, you could stay there as Postdoc for a while and then move to University X afterwards and become a habilitand there with all the duties involved.

b) First you have to be admitted as habilitand by the department and in the end there is a committee that will judge about research, teaching and service, get external reviews and make a recommendation that then will have to be approved by the department. The committee will consist of your advisors, other faculty of different levels, sometimes an external member, sometimes the dean. The committee will be composed at a faculty meeting. So it is not your choice but you could suggest and discuss with your advisor to suggest a certain external professor for the committee or - even better and more usual - as external reviewer. However, usually these need to be the experts , often internationally, so if your advisor at Y is  much less famous than the ones at X this may not be an option.

More importantly: You will have to be engaged in teaching and service at the university that is supposed to grant the habilitation. Not necessarily continuously for several years, but to quite some extend. How much exactly varies, it is very similar to everything you read about tenure processes on these boards. Usually a university will want you to teach and do service at this university and a department will not likely accept what you did elsewhere, partly because your contribution will reduce others' workload and partly granting a habilitation also means to certify your higher ed teaching ability, which they have to be able to judge.  However, there may be exceptions if there is another advantage for that university, e.g. that you publish with them as affiliation in top journals,  you are a super star and they want to have your name connected to their place. It is also a different situation if they have a very good faculty situation and do not want to give away teaching anyway while at the same time are happy about a habilitation that is good for their statistics, brings some budget to the department etc., but this is the rarer case. Your potential advisors at X will know the situation and culture.

In addition, there are - depending on the university -2-3 presentation that you have to give in front of the department that has to vote positively on these for your habilitation. Often one on your research and one on another scientific topic that is not your research and that you have to discuss competently. And finally a teaching demonstration (which however often is a formality only). This is of course easier if people know you and your research beforehand.

For your case: I would not suggest to make any enemies just to have the degree from a more famous place. In Germany, usually there are not that huge differences between universities as in the US and what counts most is your own work. However, it does count somewhat. Prestige of the advisor does count a lot more than the one of the university. What also counts, almost the same, is whom you have worked with. Hence a possibility might be to figure out a way to work with and move to University X at some point. In that case, CV wise, you will have both places on it afterwards and it won't matter whether the habilitation was done at X or Y at all! But depending on the personality and your relationship with your advisor at Y you may also discuss with him what is best for you. It is the job of a Postdoc advisor to provide some career advice and also possibly to recommend and let you go to a better/another place at some point. Alternatively, you may discuss with advisors at X in detail how this can work out. Would they have a position for you in 1-2 years to pursue your habilitation after the posdoc? Also there are very good programs where you can apply for your own position for habilitation, for which advisors at X might support you in writing and will be happy if you come in on that. And you have enough time to prepare that.

You may also be happy about and with your position and habiliation at Y and take advantage of your contacts with the professors at X in another way.

For some of your questions and decisions it might also play a role whether you intend to find a permanent faculty position in Germany after the habilitation or not....


In any case, my recommendation is to decide as early as possible at which university you want to do the habilitation and discuss formal requirements but also university culture and strategies with your advisor early.

[alpha_bet]

Hmm. Thanks for that.

But isn't it true that you can never take a post at the university at which you do the habilitation, after finishing it? As in, that's the one school in the world you can cross off your list for a job ever, once you're done?
That's how it was explained to me by the people at X.

I wonder, too, about "making enemies" - do you think the people at Y would be upset if I just said, "Hey, I'm doing this with X per previous agreement."

I was more worried about X getting upset if I said, "Hey, I know six months ago I said I'd do this with you, but Y offered me a job, so I want to do it with them."

[thisisme]

But isn't it true that you can never take a post at the university at which you do the habilitation, after finishing it? As in, that's the one school in the world you can cross off your list for a job ever, once you're done?
That's how it was explained to me by the people at X.

Basically, but this is for becoming tenured professor right after finishing habilitation.  How exactly is this question related to your current situation? I'm not quite sure I get your expectation here, some more info might help to give some useful response.

I wonder, too, about "making enemies" - do you think the people at Y would be upset if I just said, "Hey, I'm doing this with X per previous agreement."

This may be the case, but doesn't have to. Depends how long you have been there without telling them, their personality etc.... It would have been easier if you had told them when you accepted the job more or less directly.

I was more worried about X getting upset if I said, "Hey, I know six months ago I said I'd do this with you, but Y offered me a job, so I want to do it with them."

Well, if X didn't offer you a job or were making efforts to do so (or you agreed to write a proposal together or likewise), this would be totally fine. Obviously you need a job to live from . If X doesn't offer that but Y did, that is a clear choice. (The common expectation is that you do habilitation where you are located; anything else would be extra agreements, although not unheard of).

[alpha_bet]

"'But isn't it true that you can never take a post at the university at which you do the habilitation, after finishing it?'

"'Basically, but this is for becoming tenured professor right after finishing habilitation.  How exactly is this question related to your current situation?'"

- That was more or less the plan. I'm not sure what options are open to someone with an habilitation OTHER than a professorship...
So, that considered, if I wanted to stay at Y (ie. for the rest of my life), wouldn't it actually be wise to do the habilitation at X?
 

[macadamia]

I don't know how it works everywhere, but I believe you would have to be officially enrolled at University X as a habilitation candidate.

This is not true in general.

Some universities make external candidate pay a large fee, others welcome external candidates, others (and this is relevant for you) demand of their external habilitands to teach an unpaid course at the university every couple of years to keep their "venia legendi" after the habilitation.

But isn't it true that you can never take a post at the university at which you do the habilitation, after finishing it? As in, that's the one school in the world you can cross off your list for a job ever, once you're done?
That's how it was explained to me by the people at X.

This is not true, either.

Usually, it is frowned upon to hire own PhDs immediately after graduation, but this is not a strict rule, either, it just costs your university some reputation if they do it, so you would really have to be worth it. The keypoint is that you are not supposed to have spent your whole career in one place, but that does not seem to be the case, anyway.

The details of habilitation depend strongly on your specialty and your university/region. You absolutely have to have reliable mentors in your specialty. (Where reliable = they are competent enough to tell you the truth and they are honest enough to tell you the truth if it is not in their interest to do so.)

Since you seem to want to be employed later by Y instead of by X, it is not comforting that X tells you that they won't employ their own habilitands, you need Y's opinion on it, preferably in the form of looking at recent hires. Depending on your specialty, they may not have habilitation at all these days.

I strongly suggest that you tell people at Y about your ongoing habilitation project at X, and about your career plans at the magnificent university of Y. They can hardly become your enemies because you have already started your project somewhere else and you should be able to gauge from their reactions whether they expect you to change something.

Unfortunately, I do get the impression that the people at university X like you, but are not necessarily acting in your best interest.

[thisisme]

That was more or less the plan. I'm not sure what options are open to someone with an habilitation OTHER than a professorship...

Sure. Sorry, if my post was misunderstandable. My question was about where and when. Of course you want to become tenured professor...

So, that considered, if I wanted to stay at Y (ie. for the rest of my life), wouldn't it actually be wise to do the habilitation at X?

From a general point of view, there are maybe three main routes to achieve this
a) Yes, do your habilitation at X.
b) Do your habilitation at Y. Receive a competing outside offer from another university once you are finished and have university X make a counteroffer.
c) Do your habilitation at Y , afterwards move elsewhere i.e. with your own DFG-money to do research at another place (not with professor title though) for a while (even 1 year is sufficient) and then go back to university X for a professorship position.

However: In any case, X needs to have an opening in your field for a professor (W2 or W3) position and run a search. You cannot get promoted to associate/full professor, this is an extra line that needs to exist. You may know already or find out whether that is to be expected at X in the near future and adjust your plans accordingly.

As macadamia said, you need to discuss this with people at Y.

Also note that it is VERY difficult to make a plan beforehand to end up with a professor postion at one certain desired university! It happens, so you may have a chance. But usually, just as in the US, the decision for academia equals the decision to be willing to move.

Good luck!!

Let us know how it goes.

[thisisme]

Sorry, couple of times I typed X and meant Y!!! I hope you still get my point.....

(in b), c) X needs to be Y and also twice in the paragraph below.)
 Sorry!