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[lampard]

I'm in the US and in the running for a UK Professor post with an upcoming interview. I'm very recently promoted to full prof, with a salary of about $140k (so about £87k). I've seen professorial salary scales in the UK, and they start at about £54k and have 3 "Bands," with the top one ending about £106k. I don't know how they appoint to each 'band'

If I were moving to a large US or Canadian university, I'd be comfortable asking for current salary + 5% or something, but I've read that UK universities have lower salaries. I can't get any information on average salaries by rank, and I wonder if they'll consider appointing me with what might be seen as an inflated salary for my rank/experience (remember, I'm really new at my rank). I'm not sure I want to take a lower salary, and I think that COL is roughly comparable (I know this is complex, but housing is similar, for one, and health insurance isn't an issue).

The UK university is Russell group, and the field is social sciences.

This whole topic feels a bit crass, and of course there are a lot of other issues I'm exploring, but not sure where else to get this information... I hope this question is not on the Index Topicus Prohibitorum set out by expatinuk?

[fourhats]

I'm sending you a PM--check your messages.

[cranefly]

When was the last time you went to the UK? I'd think very carefully about saying that COL is roughly comparable. In my experience, nearly everything costs twice as much in the UK (petrol, food, clothing, etc.). So it is very hard to find a comparable salary range.  You'd have a lot of trouble coming to Canada asking for current + 5% as well. Where I am, current full profs in social sciences are in 120-140 range. And that's for fairly senior full profs...
Good luck!

[lampard]

Hey cranefly,

I'm in the UK every year. Yes, petrol is a lot more in the UK, but I don't want a car, and don't use one now, or at least hardly ever. Bikes are about the same price.
Food isn't necessarily more (eating out yes; groceries, no), travel to Europe is a lot cheaper, and I'm not convinced that clothes are double. Not my experience, anyway. But I don't shop at Walmart.

Essential staples like beer and wine are cheaper in the UK than where I live now. So I'll save tons of money.

But yes, you raise the difficulty of comparing CoL across settings.

[totoro]

This whole topic feels a bit crass, and of course there are a lot of other issues I'm exploring, but not sure where else to get this information... I hope this question is not on the Index Topicus Prohibitorum set out by expatinuk?

I'm curious about this index of prohibited topics.

Here is Australia professorial base pay is $A145k and there are couple of rungs above that based on reputational indicators. They can also pay merit and market loadings but they are reviewed every 3 years. I don't know how things work in the UK though. But back in the 1990s by department head came from the US and got his salary matched. £70k at the time. This outraged a lot of other professors across the university who got paid less and who often brought it up in their lack of willingness to cooperate on some things...

[expatinuk]

The index of 'bad' topics is stuff that is easily answered... i.e. cost of housing, size of houses...

NO you can NOT get a 3000 square ft house in London for $150,000.

As for salary matching... don't move to the UK for the money. You will make more money in the US and the cost of almost everything that I can think of is cheaper in the US than the UK.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the NHS is free... you'll be shocked when you get your first pay check and realize that you do pay for it as a percentage of your earnings.  When I was in the US I was paying the same for health insurance that I pay for NHS in the UK... the BIG diff is that you don't have to panic if you lose your job. You won't lose your health benefits.

Good thing about the UK... students are more motivated... bad thing about students is that their view of things is very narrow... subjects in the UK are very narrow. There is no such thing as a 'liberal arts' education. If a study wants to study basketweaving... that's what they study... just basketweaving.

Also, don't move to the UK for the weather...

Travel to other European cities is cheaper. But then travel to US states is pretty darn cheap.  There is a cultural difference in states in the US so don't fall into the trap of thinking that the US is the same all over.

All in all... move to the UK coz you want to move here, that's the motivation.

[the_walrus]

The index of 'bad' topics is stuff that is easily answered... i.e. cost of housing, size of houses...


Don't be fooled into thinking that the NHS is free... you'll be shocked when you get your first pay check and realize that you do pay for it as a percentage of your earnings.  When I was in the US I was paying the same for health insurance that I pay for NHS in the UK...

I doubt very much that this is true.  The line on your paycheck from which NHS comes is "national insurance", which includes not only the equivalent of health insurance (NHS), but also state pension, i.e., the equivalent of social security.  By that measure, I do think that it is indeed a bargain.

[bwwm1]

The index of 'bad' topics is stuff that is easily answered... i.e. cost of housing, size of houses...


Don't be fooled into thinking that the NHS is free... you'll be shocked when you get your first pay check and realize that you do pay for it as a percentage of your earnings.  When I was in the US I was paying the same for health insurance that I pay for NHS in the UK...

I doubt very much that this is true.  The line on your paycheck from which NHS comes is "national insurance", which includes not only the equivalent of health insurance (NHS), but also state pension, i.e., the equivalent of social security.  By that measure, I do think that it is indeed a bargain.

Certainly as a percent of GDP, US healthcare costs are much higher than most other countries, around 8% I think. How this actually trickles down to the individual varies a great deal. But in then end, people have to pay one way or the other.

[qrypt]

To work out a comparison of tax between the UK and US, you have to add US health insurance premiums to tax.  And, not only any deductions from your paycheck, but also the amount your employer pays on your behalf.  This is "employee compensation" -- in effect, it is salary, except that it is being diverted from your paycheck to pay for health insurance, just like tax in the UK. 

This puts a big dent in the notion that US taxes are lower. 

[wegie]

Don't be fooled into thinking that the NHS is free... you'll be shocked when you get your first pay check and realize that you do pay for it as a percentage of your earnings.  When I was in the US I was paying the same for health insurance that I pay for NHS in the UK...

I doubt very much that this is true.  The line on your paycheck from which NHS comes is "national insurance", which includes not only the equivalent of health insurance (NHS), but also state pension, i.e., the equivalent of social security.  By that measure, I do think that it is indeed a bargain.

I do wish people would stop perpetuating this canard. National Insurance as originally instituted by Lloyd George did indeed pay for individual health care as well as pension and unemployment benefits, and still does pay for unemployment and the state pension (which is why, I, as a housewife for the past few years, am in for a nasty shock at age 67 unless I start paying voluntary NI). However, one of the motives behind the introduction was to remove the connection between NI and healthcare, because NI (unlike employment-based health insurance in the US, for instance) never covered the payer's dependents. The NHS is funded from general taxation.

Certainly as a percent of GDP, US healthcare costs are much higher than most other countries, around 8% I think. How this actually trickles down to the individual varies a great deal. But in then end, people have to pay one way or the other.

As a percentage of GDP, US healthcare costs are about 16% of GDP. The French and Germans spend around 10% of GDP and we here spend about 8-9% (up from 6% in 1997). That's not 8% more, that's pretty close to 100% more.

Returning to the OP's original question. At any university I've worked at, the Professorial scale has precisely one point, which is the compulsory entry point. Usually, this is around spine point 53, which is currently around £62,000. If the OP has a rootle around, they'll find the posts relating to the law suit at RHUL, where a female professor found out exactly how much she was being shortchanged compared to male counterparts who'd negotiated much better packages; whilst she'd assumed that the professorial scale was the same as the rest of the spine, where you just advance up in an orderly manner, they'd worked out that it was a complete free-for-all. Occasionally, a university will specify that they want to appoint within a specified pay range, but most places are pretty flexible.

I'd be surprised if the OP could negotiate current salary plus 5% as a very new full prof in soc sciences (unless they're in an in-demand business field), but £70-75K should be eminently doable. I'd also add that £70K puts one pretty close to the top 1% of earners in the UK, and as long as one's not in London/Oxford/Cambridge guarantees a very nice life indeed.   

[unhelpful]

Good thing about the UK... students are more motivated... bad thing about students is that their view of things is very narrow... subjects in the UK are very narrow. There is no such thing as a 'liberal arts' education. If a study wants to study basketweaving... that's what they study... just basketweaving.

This may be true in England, but not really in Scotland, where (I believe) students do not decide their degree until their 3rd year, and have two years in which to find out what they want to do.

The Scottish system is separate from the English one, and is quite different in many ways.

[lampard]

Thanks, especially wegie, for the helpful information in response to my question. Yes, I recall the Royal Holloway case - it got a lot of attention in UK news and maybe CHE, too.

And expatinuk, yes, I know that travel among the states can be cheap, but I need/want to be in Europe fairly often.

Wegie, I haven't found the Professorial Scale with 'precisely one point' that you mention, and many salary scales are not available online (at my prospective uni the scales are locked to outsiders).

At Sheffield, for example (as of July 2010), there is an Introductory Zone, steps 1-5 (~54-61k), and then Band 1, 2, and 3, ranging all the way from 63k to 107k: http://www.shef.ac.uk/hr/reward/professorial/structure
What I don't know is if this Sheffield structure is more-or-less universal among UK universities, or if my prospective uni has a similar structure.

I agree that as a 'junior senior prof', I might not be seen as having earned my place beyond the Intro zone, but in my past job forays (US, Canada, UK, Australia), past salary is a useful negotiating starting point.

Finally, regarding cost comparisons,The Economist's Big Mac Index has Britain cheaper than USA (at least if you eat only at McD's):http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/07/big-mac-index

[mingus]

There are two things you should never come to the UK for: money and weather.

[parispundit]

Good thing about the UK... students are more motivated... bad thing about students is that their view of things is very narrow... subjects in the UK are very narrow. There is no such thing as a 'liberal arts' education. If a study wants to study basketweaving... that's what they study... just basketweaving.

This may be true in England, but not really in Scotland, where (I believe) students do not decide their degree until their 3rd year, and have two years in which to find out what they want to do.

The Scottish system is separate from the English one, and is quite different in many ways.

As I understand it, the Scottish system is vastly different from the UK - students study 2 or 3 subjects their first year (vs. perhaps 12 or more in their first two years in the US) before narrowing down to one  by their second year. Liberals arts, it's not. Corrections welcome if I have misunderstood.

[ideagirl]

To work out a comparison of tax between the UK and US, you have to add US health insurance premiums to tax.  And, not only any deductions from your paycheck, but also the amount your employer pays on your behalf.  This is "employee compensation" -- in effect, it is salary, except that it is being diverted from your paycheck to pay for health insurance, just like tax in the UK. 

This puts a big dent in the notion that US taxes are lower. 

Right you are. And the other big dent that I somehow never hear anyone mention is that most people in the US are paying two or even three sets of income tax: federal, state, and in some cases city. Once you add all those together, we're right up there with every other civilized nation in terms of our tax burden. It's just that we get a lot less for it, unless you think of things like the Iraq war as a benefit you received...