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Author Topic: How to STFU?  (Read 16225 times)
fiveone
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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2011, 11:31:24 PM »


Well, since you brought it up:  I don't think anyone called you a social outcast, but to be honest, your behavior on the forum thus far does not speak to a particularly high level of what you call "social competence." You resurrected a dead thread in order to declare the well-meaning advice of experienced people "doublethink" and made no attempt to back up your assertions. You then proceeded to insult anyone who disagreed with you. Finally, you introduced a sock puppet into the conversation, seemingly to create the illusion that someone on the thread agreed with you. Maybe that's not what you intended, but that's sure how it looked. What would you think of you if you were us?

Why are you here exactly? What about the OP touched a nerve and why did you feel the need to respond the way you did (assuming, of course, that you are not purposefully trolling for attention)?

I responded in kind to any comments I received, I did not initiate any aggression. You'll notice most of the spiteful non-content has been directed against me. I still maintain my position on what I call doublethink. Evidence? Do you want citations or stats? Please. And the "sockpuppet" is a non-point.

I responded because this kind of thinking is making the classroom a neurotic and toxic environment. Coming from Europe, and in my first year of a grad program here, I think this culture of politeness is insipid and anti-intellectual. I can't help it if you choose to react in a hostile fashion when you hear something you don't like.
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betterslac
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Posts: 1,061


« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2011, 12:16:28 AM »


Well, since you brought it up:  I don't think anyone called you a social outcast, but to be honest, your behavior on the forum thus far does not speak to a particularly high level of what you call "social competence." You resurrected a dead thread in order to declare the well-meaning advice of experienced people "doublethink" and made no attempt to back up your assertions. You then proceeded to insult anyone who disagreed with you. Finally, you introduced a sock puppet into the conversation, seemingly to create the illusion that someone on the thread agreed with you. Maybe that's not what you intended, but that's sure how it looked. What would you think of you if you were us?

Why are you here exactly? What about the OP touched a nerve and why did you feel the need to respond the way you did (assuming, of course, that you are not purposefully trolling for attention)?

I responded in kind to any comments I received, I did not initiate any aggression. You'll notice most of the spiteful non-content has been directed against me. I still maintain my position on what I call doublethink. Evidence? Do you want citations or stats? Please. And the "sockpuppet" is a non-point.

I responded because this kind of thinking is making the classroom a neurotic and toxic environment. Coming from Europe, and in my first year of a grad program here, I think this culture of politeness is insipid and anti-intellectual. I can't help it if you choose to react in a hostile fashion when you hear something you don't like.

My advice to you is the same as it would be to an American in a European or Asian grad program:

1) You chose to come to a different country for grad school. You should expect to find differences between your previous experiences and your current experience. If you don't like what you deem the "neurotic and toxic" environment of the place you chose, perhaps you are not a good fit for the school or perhaps for the American system. Or maybe the program is neurotic and toxic and it would be best to escape the situation. But given the way you interact with others here, I think the problem is you rather than the program.

2) If you do wish to stay in your current program and do well, it is wise to adapt to it and to the American system. Academic discourse is different in the States than in Europe. You don't want people thinking of you as the Ugly European when you follow European rather than American norms for academic interaction. I had people from all over the world (Korea, France, Denmark, South Africa) in my grad program. They adapted just fine, but they made the effort to do so. You do not, so far, appear as if you are making the effort.

3) Such adaptation will be particularly important if you interact with undergraduates as a TA or instructor.

4) Watch the faculty in your program to see how they operate. I studied with the foremost experts in 3 different subfields of my discipline when I was in grad school. If they so wished, they could have crushed any of us in their graduate seminars. But they didn't and they did not encourage any efforts of members of their seminars to savage one another. I think there is a lot to be said for that method and of the humility those instructors modeled for us.

5) If there are faculty from your country in your program or institution, perhaps you might ask them for some mentoring in adapting.
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fiveone
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« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2011, 12:26:25 AM »

I do appreciate your advice but I'm getting on fine!

Edit: I understand I may be giving a somewhat hostile impression - bear in mind the comments I've been dealing with. I grant I could have introduced the point more politely. Nonetheless it is something I feel strongly about.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:30:58 AM by fiveone » Logged
lasquires
Hopelessly Abject
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Posts: 715

Awaiting the zombie apocalypse.


« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2011, 12:41:45 AM »

I do appreciate your advice but I'm getting on fine!

Edit: I understand I may be giving a somewhat hostile impression - bear in mind the comments I've been dealing with. I grant I could have introduced the point more politely. Nonetheless it is something I feel strongly about.

Part of the problem here is that you failed to correctly asses and adhere to the norms of the CHE fora, which IS frequently the site of much spirited intellectual debate. For one thing, you picked a fight with larryc, who is a very respected poster and who has orders of magnitude more experience than you, a first year grad student, in this area. And while you think the sock puppet thing is no big deal, such behavior is generally regarded by this online community as the most craven sort of d*****baggery.

In other words, you stepped on the land mines, possibly by complete accident, but as a betterslac said, learning to adapt to cultural norms is key to success in any environment, and you're not doing well in this one. That's why some are wondering what members of your cohort might say if we asked them about you.
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Live every week like it's Shark Week--30 Rock
grasshopper
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Posts: 14,148

Grade Despot


« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2011, 06:28:01 AM »

I don't actually think that Fiveone's tone or attitude would be out of the ordinary in a (North) American graduate seminar.

Here's what I think the problem is: 
If you have good relationships with people you can argue with them in class and it's not a big deal. If someone wants to make an especial issue of it I don't see that as my problem.
Fiveone is commenting on a different situation than everybody else. We're not discussing the tensions that arise from debate in class. That's the problem, actually: no debate in class, because one person is monopolizing the discussion.
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username2
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Posts: 211


« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2011, 09:39:09 AM »

It occurs to me that if you are actively seeking debates in your courses but aren't finding it, perhaps you want to switch schools or fields. At least in my experience, graduate seminars are exactly where people will argue and won't shut up.

Sometimes it takes until the 2nd half of the year until you know everyone, but at least in my experience, vigorous but professional arguing of viewpoints should be par for the course. But this depends also on the culture of the discipline - in one of my social science fields, interruptions and debates are common, while in another, there is more of a culture of turn-taking. So maybe this is an indication that you are in the wrong school or discipline. (For example, I hear economists truly enjoy strong arguing, especially in job talks. Thank god that's not my area.)
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bigghostdini_tha_don
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Posts: 95


« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2011, 10:49:57 PM »

Interesting question t/s. I think there is a thin line here and it varies from one class/prof to another, but I try to read the prof (I'm a student, and a talker).  If I've been doing more than my share of talking and I get the vibe that the prof is looking to spread the convo around, I'll hold back a bit, especially if I've already made a few good comments for the day. 

Tbh, I do think it is the professor's responsibility to manage the class convo, so if a prof gave me a low grade for overtalking I'd be annoyed, but I'd rather just avoid the bad grade all together so better to exercise a little caution.
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basketeer
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Posts: 14


« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2012, 09:25:23 AM »

Sorry to resurrect a two-month-old thread but I don't want to start a new one for such a minor question.

One of the comments earlier mentioned a student (although I think it was an undergraduate one) who raised her hand before speaking in a seminar, even if it meant getting steamrolled by someone more talkative. Any thoughts on this practice? I'm about to start my third semester of an MFA program and my first seminar so far. The first year consisted of studio only and I mostly kept to myself, and now I'm worried about latent social idiocy... The last time I was in grad school I was almost 20 years younger, and the culture in science was definitely different from the arts. Then I spent 15 years on varying rungs of the corporate ladder, where I usually interacted with folks above or below me, but rarely in a roomful of peers.

Yup, there's definitely social idiot potential. Especially since half the class will be half my age.

Do I raise my hand before commenting or just STFU?
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anon99
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Posts: 3,193


« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2012, 09:30:28 AM »

See what the culture of the class is and what other students do. I would start with raising your hand unless there are only 5 or 6 students in the class.  It should be up to the prof to lead the discussion.  If students who are raising their hands and are getting cut off by other students who aren't, it is the profs problem and they should deal with it.
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basketeer
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« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2012, 09:56:19 AM »

So far the culture in studio critiques has been a free-for-all. I was usually the only student who hadn't just come out of an undergraduate fine arts program and I felt like I didn't quite have the jargon down, so I rarely volunteered. I miss the exchange of ideas, though. I just have to temper that with the awareness that I'm not very good at reading other people, particularly in peer situations.

I think the wait-and-see advice is right on target. If the professor lets a student or two dominate the class (as was the case in critiques in one of my studios last semester), I can save my ideas for a paper
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 09:57:49 AM by basketeer » Logged
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