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[spork]

K16 asks a good question: why are Norwegians happier with less crap? Why do we buy crap when it doesn't make us happy?

[sikora]

Grasshopper, I agree with everything you say. Everything.  I wish I could live in the world you describe.
  

I have been biking to work, and for pleasure, for 9 months now. I live the the best city for biking in the country, even with North Country winters.  My bike has an appointment to be turned into an Ice Bike in about 10 days.  I will get studded tires, fenders, and a special lube to get me through the winter. I can't afford good biking clothes, but I think I can do with layers and fleece from the thrift shop. Hey, you know what the difference between 20 below and 25 below is?  Bragging rights.  Anyway, got my lights, front and back, and am biking in the dark daily now. It's not warm.  My biggest problem is even in the cold, I sweat through my clothes and have to have change of biking clothes with me every where I go.

I would love to get rid of my car. I have put less than 100 miles on it since March.  Why do I keep it?  Because I'm job hunting, and employers are allowed to ask "Do you have your own transportation."  Want a job?  Better say, yes I have a car. Better be able to hold up those car keys in an interview.  Better be able to provide proof  of insurance, especially if your job requires you to drive.  EVEN IF YOU ARE DRIVING THE COMPANY'S VEHICLE AND NOT YOUR OWN. This is true of volunteer drivers for organizations such as the VA, as well.  I don't know what happens to licensed drivers who don't have a vehicle and thus don't have insurance.  So because some of the jobs I've applied to may require me to drive clients around, I've been advised to keep my car so I can show proof of insurance.  Unless someone can point me to insurance for drivers, and not their cars.

I've learned on my job search that potential employers are not benevolent, they are not understanding, and they are not forgiving of holes in resumes or "overqualification." There is a real contempt for the jobless right now, and anything a job seeker can do to hold themselves above the "scum" of masses of other unemployed, like keeping a car, is a necessity.

That current of contempt for the unemployed, which I know is not universal but it has definitely reflected in the comments of the GOP candidates, is one of the reasons people are part of the Occupy movement, inchoate as it is.  

[rroscoe]

I bought my first new car and. It was a really big deal. Most people I know have two cars and think hubby and I are crazy for having just the one. My parents never had a new car growing up.

And I make below the area median income, so Im pretty sure I ain't wealthy.

And I looked at used and the cost was only a few thousand less.s I don't have fifteen grand laying around, so the .9 percent interest rate was a pretty good deal when I needed a car pronto. Judge away

For the record, I think it's great you that and hubby can get by with only one car. My wife and I did this when I was in graduate school and it was wonderful for our budget. Alas, it isn't really feasible in the town where we live now as public transportation isn't very good. In your circumstances, and with such a low interest rate, I don't see a car payment as such a big deal.

However, for families of modest means who really need two cars, it makes more sense to save up over time and buy decent used cars instead of having a car payment. For instance, suppose your car was paid for and you could expect to get ten more years of use out of it. If you saved $250 a month instead of getting another car payment, you would have $30,000 plus interest in ten years. You can purchase two decent used cars for that much, especially with cash, which allows you to bargain down the price a bit more.

Pry is correct that major repairs (e.g. timing belt) come in the 80-90k range for most vehicles. But if it makes the car last another 100,000 miles, it's worth it as far as I'm concerned.  

[rroscoe]

I'd rather have a horse and buggy than a car any day.  Hitching posts > parking lots, and horse poop > exhaust fumes. 

Horses are expensive and buggies require a lot of upkeep.

Indeed. I can't remember the exact figure, but before automobiles were common, a significant amount of agricultural resources were devoted just to feeding horses.

[rroscoe]

K16 asks a good question: why are Norwegians happier with less crap? Why do we buy crap when it doesn't make us happy?

Below is a great story on how the Norwegians have wisely managed their oil reserves:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/09/06/140110346/how-to-avoid-the-oil-curse

I don't think that either of our political parties, or the nation as a whole for that matter, has the restraint that the Norwegians do.

[concordancia]

I bought my first new car and. It was a really big deal. Most people I know have two cars and think hubby and I are crazy for having just the one. My parents never had a new car growing up.

And I make below the area median income, so Im pretty sure I ain't wealthy.

And I looked at used and the cost was only a few thousand less.s I don't have fifteen grand laying around, so the .9 percent interest rate was a pretty good deal when I needed a car pronto. Judge away

For the record, I think it's great you that and hubby can get by with only one car. My wife and I did this when I was in graduate school and it was wonderful for our budget. Alas, it isn't really feasible in the town where we live now as public transportation isn't very good. In your circumstances, and with such a low interest rate, I don't see a car payment as such a big deal.

However, for families of modest means who really need two cars, it makes more sense to save up over time and buy decent used cars instead of having a car payment. For instance, suppose your car was paid for and you could expect to get ten more years of use out of it. If you saved $250 a month instead of getting another car payment, you would have $30,000 plus interest in ten years. You can purchase two decent used cars for that much, especially with cash, which allows you to bargain down the price a bit more.

Pry is correct that major repairs (e.g. timing belt) come in the 80-90k range for most vehicles. But if it makes the car last another 100,000 miles, it's worth it as far as I'm concerned.  

You have never actually lived paycheck to paycheck, have you? For families that need the vehicle, that $250 is probably going to upkeep of the vehicle. Or towards groceries. I won't claim that all poor-ish folk are financially responsible, but there is a level of barely getting by that makes it impossible to be economical. You can't buy bulk because a) this week's paycheck won't stretch that far and/or b) there isn't anyplace to store it.

[wet_blanket]

Poor farmers had a horse and buggy.   A modest used car can be cheaper than using mass transit for a family of four.  I don't like being forced to have one but having one's own personal vehicle isn't asking for too much in life. 

If that vehicle is a car, then yes, it is.  We're at something like seven billion people on this planet.  Let's assume that half of those people are too young, too old, or too disabled to drive.  Let's even be conservative and assume that we're talking one car per household, not one car per person.  There isn't enough fuel for those cars.  Even if we move away from oil and perfect ethanol or solar or electric, do you really think there are enough raw materials to fuel maybe a billion cars? 

I would say that being able to go about one's daily life without being hindered by transportation isn't too much to ask.  The idea that the best way to achieve that is for everyone or most people to have their own cars is ridiculous.

[prytania3]

Poor farmers had a horse and buggy.   A modest used car can be cheaper than using mass transit for a family of four.  I don't like being forced to have one but having one's own personal vehicle isn't asking for too much in life. 

If that vehicle is a car, then yes, it is.  We're at something like seven billion people on this planet.  Let's assume that half of those people are too young, too old, or too disabled to drive.  Let's even be conservative and assume that we're talking one car per household, not one car per person.  There isn't enough fuel for those cars.  Even if we move away from oil and perfect ethanol or solar or electric, do you really think there are enough raw materials to fuel maybe a billion cars? 

I would say that being able to go about one's daily life without being hindered by transportation isn't too much to ask.  The idea that the best way to achieve that is for everyone or most people to have their own cars is ridiculous.

In order to make not having a car feasible, you'd have to change the zoning laws. Good luck with that one.

[wet_blanket]

Oh, I know that's not likely to happen any time soon.  To me, this underlines Grassie's point: we've built a world in which this is the natural order of things.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

I think that anyone who wants more than I have is asking too much in life.  Anyone who wants less is lacking in ambition.

We're at something like seven billion people on this planet.

I'm not sure why the fact that a bunch of people in the world can't keep their willies in their pants should have an affect on my aspirations.

Sikora,

Hey, you know what the difference between 20 below and 25 below is?  Bragging rights.

When I lived up at the tip of Lake Superior, we used to call you guys "southerners".  When the temp got up to 20 below we'd change to our middleweight parkas.  (The lightweight parkas were reserved for the summer.)

why are Norwegians happier with less crap? Why do we buy crap when it doesn't make us happy?

I wouldn't call the Norwegians exactly "happy".  And if you ever went shopping in Oslo, you'd understand why they buy less crap.  They can't afford it.  Their crap is thrice the price of our crap, and at least as crappy. - DvF

[grasshopper]

I bought my first new car and. It was a really big deal. Most people I know have two cars and think hubby and I are crazy for having just the one. My parents never had a new car growing up.

And I make below the area median income, so Im pretty sure I ain't wealthy.

You're not hearing me at all. I'm not judging you, I'm judging the standard by which we measure wealth. You aren't considered wealthy, but you damn well should be. And the fact that you're not is a problem. The standard of "just getting by" is too high. And everything in our society makes that standard a necessity.

And it's nice to know that because I bought my Toyota Tacoma new that I'm fabulously wealthy. Okay--in comparison to the rest of the world, sure, but wealth is relative, and where I am, my truck is not a sign of fabulous wealth.

Exactly. That truck isn't a sign of fabulous wealth. But it should be. Because it can't be the norm, and be sustainable across the board. Not if we want even relative economic equality.

In order to make not having a car feasible, you'd have to change the zoning laws. Good luck with that one.

Right? Because everything in North America makes that standard of middle class necessary. That's the problem. Well, that's A problem. I'm not sure if it's THE problem.

Oh, I know that's not likely to happen any time soon.  To me, this underlines Grassie's point: we've built a world in which this is the natural order of things.

Thank you, yes - that's exactly it. We're caught in this web of our own making.


Now, you all in the US have things quite a bit harder than us in Canada. I'm not denying that. The gap between rich and poor is not nearly as dramatic up here as it is for you all. But that vision of "middle class" is the same, and no matter where we're coming from, we simply don't have the resources to make that a reality for Every Single Person in the country.

Maybe you don't want to make that a reality for Every Single Person in the country, and that's fine. I'm a raging pinko socialist so, you know, there's that. I'm one of those who would like to see a much more equal distribution of wealth, in a very radical way. Not everybody shares that vision. But it seems to me that if the Occupy movement is pushing for greater equality, that median line, the "middle class" is implicitly the goal. And it quite simply cannot happen. Not for everyone, not the way middle class is defined right now.

Oh! And speaking of the wage gap in Canada, some of my fellow Canadians might be interested in Maclean's recent article on the Occupy movement in Canada. It brings in microwave ovens and tax breaks for hockey players, and is predictably stupid:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/10/24/a-phony-class-war/

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Aargh! Effect. Crap. - DvF

[spork]

This discussion is reminding me of when I lived in San Francisco, which is supposedly one of the most public transit-friendly cities in the USA. I had no car, so I rented a studio apartment in a crack-infested neighborhood because it was only five blocks from work. A bicycle trip required to go to the closest supermarket, unless I wanted to turn getting groceries into a two hour minimum bus adventure. Dodging cars made the bicycle less than ideal though. Then there was the trip across the bay three nights a week, which took at least one hour each way, assuming that I could catch a ride to the BART station for the trip home. So I bought a motorcycle once I had saved up enough money.

I can't imagine what life must be like for car-less people in suburban and rural areas.

[merinoblue]

I can't imagine what life must be like for car-less people in suburban and rural areas.

A young friend of mine, from Vancouver, once insisted to me that all Canadians should be able to get by with public transit, walking, and bicycles.  She's clearly never experienced a mobility problem. She also forgets that 20% of Canadians are still rural dwellers. I know one slice of this rural population. It's overwhelmingly elderly (or retired and becoming elderly), with chronic health problems, and isolated.  You want groceries? You need a car or truck to drive 40 minutes into town. You want something from the hardware store so you can repair your house? Same thing. You need to get to the doctor? Well, you're going to need a vehicle for that.  And since you're older and very likely have a health problem such as cancer or heart disease that needs treatment by specialists, changes are that you're going to need to drive beyond the 40 minutes into town, since your specialists only work in the large urban centres 2-3 hours away.  No public transit, bicycles, or walking is going to serve this population.  My friend also forgets about urban dwellers with mobility problems or disabilities, who aren't served by public transit, and need taxis or friends with cars to get to their doctors' appointments.

[prof_smartypants]

I bought my first new car and. It was a really big deal. Most people I know have two cars and think hubby and I are crazy for having just the one. My parents never had a new car growing up.

And I make below the area median income, so Im pretty sure I ain't wealthy.

And I looked at used and the cost was only a few thousand less.s I don't have fifteen grand laying around, so the .9 percent interest rate was a pretty good deal when I needed a car pronto. Judge away

For the record, I think it's great you that and hubby can get by with only one car. My wife and I did this when I was in graduate school and it was wonderful for our budget. Alas, it isn't really feasible in the town where we live now as public transportation isn't very good. In your circumstances, and with such a low interest rate, I don't see a car payment as such a big deal.

However, for families of modest means who really need two cars, it makes more sense to save up over time and buy decent used cars instead of having a car payment. For instance, suppose your car was paid for and you could expect to get ten more years of use out of it. If you saved $250 a month instead of getting another car payment, you would have $30,000 plus interest in ten years. You can purchase two decent used cars for that much, especially with cash, which allows you to bargain down the price a bit more.

Pry is correct that major repairs (e.g. timing belt) come in the 80-90k range for most vehicles. But if it makes the car last another 100,000 miles, it's worth it as far as I'm concerned.  

That's nice.
Like I said, this is our only car. We bought it new. We needed a car pronto, and didn't have 10 years to stow away $250 a month. Thanks for playing, though.