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[zharkov]

The program in question is like most doctoral programs, with students really beginning dissertation research after all their coursework is complete.  (They are encouraged to begin some background reading along the way, but don't really "dive in" until coursework is complete.)  I was talking to a faculty member in another department who mentioned that students in his program began research after about a year of core classes, students being required to submit a sort of pre-proposal, thus the research process began while students were still taking classes.  At first glance, this seems like an attractive approach, especially in that it helps students to "hit the ground running" by the time coursework is done. 

So I'm curious whether other programs have had success with the "dissertation during coursework" approach, and what the pitfalls might be.  (The general area for both programs is social science.)

Thanks,

Z

[jonesey]

I'm starting my last year of coursework in a social science PhD program and we're encouraged to use our remaining classes as a springboard for our dissertation. I'm submitting IRB forms this week, actually, and how to use my data from this semester as part of my dissertation.

[lohai0]

We take coursework all four years of our degree. I started work on my dissertation proposal halfway through my second year (math ed)

[seniorscholar]

We don't have any formal mechanism for encouraging or discouraging the process, though a formal dissertation proposal can not be submitted and approved until the student has finished coursework and passed the language exams and the two prelims. However, I certainly start talking dissertation during the first year of coursework with students the good students who have shown an interest in my subfield: urging them to use, for example, the exercises assigned in my research methods course to prepare a bibliography on the topic that interests them, encouraging them to choose an appropriate scholarly book for their short presentation on "current trends," and so forth, and certainly to put some of their essential readings on the optional part of the list they have to prepare for their prelims. And I have had one student who had a dissertation proposal on which we had consulted ready to submit the day prelim results were released, though this was a person who had already found a CC position far away in the town where an ailing mother lived, and who wrote the dissertation with e-mail consultations for so many years it was barely submitted before the time ran out.

[msparticularity]

Two of my doc students came into the program pretty far along in terms of defined areas of interest. In both cases, we've been able to help them to accomplish a lot of the preliminary work on their lit reviews and/or methodological discussions as a part of their coursework during the third year. With one, it's looking as if a preliminary version of one of the chapters may be completed in conjunction with the coursework as well. In other cases, I've noticed, students don't really begin to hone in on what they'd like to do until the third year, although sometimes parts of the work they've done for classes that year can be rolled into the prospectus because it was the coursework that triggered the idea.

[zombie_librarian]

I'm dissertating now, but I started my research during coursework. We couldn't defend our proposal until after courses were over, but many of us had enough of an idea of our topic that we could pick courses and paper topics that would be useful.

Benefits: I have 4-5 seminar papers I've mined for various chapters I'm now writing. Two chapters are substantially built from seminar papers. The lit review is practically done, from annotated bibliographies I did years ago. I had most of my sources read and marked before really sitting down with the dissertation. I already received feedback on some of my ideas.

Pitfalls: Wow- I write a lot better now. There is a lot of revising needed. Some of the papers are not targeted enough, and I struggle not to just plop them in the chapters when I have a deadline approaching.

I think this plan has worked pretty well for me, but I'm in lit and I'm still a student. I'll let you know how well it really worked when I finish writing the d*mn thing.

[betterslac]

Another problem is hyperspecialization. If students are tailoring their coursework around a particular dissertation topic, they won't be exploring other areas of their discipline or subfield that will be useful for later research and teaching purposes. So on the plus side students will have a head start on their dissertations; on the minus side they will be even more narrowly trained than generally is the case with doctoral students.

[glowdart]

Another problem is hyperspecialization. If students are tailoring their coursework around a particular dissertation topic, they won't be exploring other areas of their discipline or subfield that will be useful for later research and teaching purposes. So on the plus side students will have a head start on their dissertations; on the minus side they will be even more narrowly trained than generally is the case with doctoral students.

Humanities alert. 

Yes, this can be an issue if the department has enough course offerings to permit it to happen.  I've seen this happen to friends in other programs.

In ours, we were encouraged to try out potential dissertation topics as seminar papers, but then we couldn't defend our proposal until after a whole series of boxes had been ticked, including classes & languages and prelim exams.  So, in practice, you could be done with coursework and then working only on pulling together a proposal, or you could end coursework and have a proposal mostly written. 

I don't know of anyone who ended their coursework without knowing what they were going to write about, even if they didn't necessarily have a proposal written.   

[helpful]

The push from administration is to shorten the time it takes to get a graduate degree, be it Masters or Phd, so there is pressure to get students going on their research while they are doing their course work. (Apparently the admin says that research has shown that the faster you get the phd done, the less chance that a student will drop out). So what were once 5 to 7 year time frames for a doctoral program are now more like 3 1/2 to 5 years.

[juillet]

I don't know...in my field, thinking about the research early is what helps you get out in 5 to 7 years. Because I collected my data through my 3rd and into the beginning of the current (my 4th) year, I can submit my proposal and hit the ground running with analysis in the late spring after I finish my oral exams, and then begin writing the dissertation in earnest over the summer between my 4th and 5th year (2012).  That basically gives me a year to analyze, write, edit, defend, and revise the thing.  In my field that's realistic, but it certainly didn't shorten my expectations to anything like 3.5 years.

Most students here know what their dissertation topics are going to be fairly early (2nd-3rd year), but most also graduate in 6 to 8 years in this interdisciplinary program and 5 to 6 years in the straight psychology program.

[zharkov]

Thanks all for your responses.

In my own limited experience, it does seem that the longer one takes, the less likely it becomes that one graduates.  But that might be owing to students who complete the coursework with just a vague proposal, then try to focus on a project, taking a year to two to do so.

[kron3007]

I was always encouraged to start my research immediately (at least working on a lit review and proposal).  However, I did most of my schooling in a STEM field in Canada where the course requirments in grad school are much lower.  Further, from what I gather most profs up here see course work as an inconvenience that gets in the way of research, where in the USA they are seen as very important.  I actually had a Prof tell me that course work is more important than publications when I was a PhD student in the US.  From my perspective it seems like a waste of time not to start your proposal etc. while you are taking classes.  I am always amazed when I hear how long some US programs take, I've met a number of 10 year PhDs from the states and can not believe they lasted that long.

I know my experiences are mostly irrelevant for anyone in the US system, but it is always good to hear different perspectives and systems.   

[msparticularity]

Thanks all for your responses.

In my own limited experience, it does seem that the longer one takes, the less likely it becomes that one graduates.  But that might be owing to students who complete the coursework with just a vague proposal, then try to focus on a project, taking a year to two to do so.

I have noticed that there are some students who are very happy being students (they enjoy taking the courses and do well--and often are very good TAs), but who do not seem able to develop any lasting interest in any particular topic. These are the ones who have a new idea about their dissertation topic/area at least every semester during their coursework, who--as you describe--get to the end of their coursework with only a vague idea, and who then flounder around for a year or more trying to develop something. Often, they never do manage to get to an approved prospectus--or their advisor basically walks them through the prospectus and they never get any farther.

I wouldn't quite say that alarms begin going off in my head when I see a student in the third year with no real idea what they're going to focus on, but I definitely do get a little concerned.

[prof_smartypants]

I took courses for 2 years (we came in with a Master's in case that matters) and tied many of my course papers to my diss topic. During the summer, I took my comps and worked on a preliminary proposal.

In the fall of my 3rd year, I did some independent studies and wrote a diss proposal. I had to collect new data, and get funding for that collection, so the next two semesters were writing grant proposals and doing some background writing and research. It was nearly a year before I got the funding to start my data collection. Once I was able to initiate that, it took me about a year to write, edit, and submit the diss. Total time to completion: 5 years. Had funding been available or had I not been delayed in my quest for funding, it would have taken 4 years.

I think it was a good system, but time to completion totally depended upon how organized each student is and how well formed their topic is while they are doing coursework.

[bread_pirate_naan]

I see a number of different approaches in social sciences on campus.  Those with a good deal of field work may have a demanding MA thesis component and exams before dissertation research.  Avid, wide ranging researchers will occasionally switch gears and start with something completely new (Anthro/Sociology).  Others may have a strong focus on a specialized interest most or all the way through (Econ/Poli Sci/Poli Theory).  The latter are extremely competitive programs inside and outside the uni.

In the humanities realm with which I am more familiar, the prospectus is defended immediately after exams and the specialized bibliography is basically the lit review.  It is not possible to start after completing requirements.

I dragged out my coursework as long as possible (widely and interdepartmentally), despite having a topic early on.  A successful prospectus defense in many departments often involves demanding interrogation and rethinking of the project no matter what was accomplished before advancing, or how good the work is. Every project can get much better. To be starting from scratch at that time sounds awful.