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[polly_mer]

It is extremely easy for tutors to go too far. People who know how to do something find it difficult and patience-trying to watch other people struggle rather than jumping in. I have never tutored writing, but I did tutor math all summer, and even though we are not supposed to work students' homework problems for them, it is extremely tempting to do so, because any other approach takes far more time, energy, creativity, patience, etc. I think it's silly to suggest that tutors always see the right way to go and are able to resist the urge to just fix the problems they see, or that they are so uniformly well-supervised that overhelp can't happen.

Well, darn, you mean writing centers might be like every other human endeavor on campuses?  Campuses are, of course, grand collectives of human endeavors attempting to live up to mission statements (and news releases).

Ptarmigan is a grad student, so she might still be laboring under idealistic delusions.  However, in her favor, I know she doesn't have to go pick up clues at Big Lots while they're still on sale. <interthreaduality>

[proftowanda]

It is extremely easy for tutors to go too far. People who know how to do something find it difficult and patience-trying to watch other people struggle rather than jumping in. I have never tutored writing, but I did tutor math all summer, and even though we are not supposed to work students' homework problems for them, it is extremely tempting to do so, because any other approach takes far more time, energy, creativity, patience, etc. I think it's silly to suggest that tutors always see the right way to go and are able to resist the urge to just fix the problems they see, or that they are so uniformly well-supervised that overhelp can't happen.

Well, darn, you mean writing centers might be like every other human endeavor on campuses?  Campuses are, of course, grand collectives of human endeavors attempting to live up to mission statements (and news releases).

Ptarmigan is a grad student, so she might still be laboring under idealistic delusions.  However, in her favor, I know she doesn't have to go pick up clues at Big Lots while they're still on sale. <interthreaduality>

I'm rarely read as so subtle that I need a <snark> tag!  Ptarmigan is abolutely spot on from the real world of Academe, How She Is Done.

[pedanterast]

All the peer tutors at my last and next institution (same place but I am not working this semester) start at  minimum wage ($7.25 per hour), whether they are work study or not.  Work-study tutors who are re-hired for a second year get a $0.10 per hour and there they stay until they graduate, quit, or get fired.  Non work-study tutors do not get this "augmentation."  Any other tutors besides students are volunteers.  Those folks used to get a free monthly bus pass (market value $15) but that got eliminated for this year.

[polly_mer]

It is extremely easy for tutors to go too far. People who know how to do something find it difficult and patience-trying to watch other people struggle rather than jumping in. I have never tutored writing, but I did tutor math all summer, and even though we are not supposed to work students' homework problems for them, it is extremely tempting to do so, because any other approach takes far more time, energy, creativity, patience, etc. I think it's silly to suggest that tutors always see the right way to go and are able to resist the urge to just fix the problems they see, or that they are so uniformly well-supervised that overhelp can't happen.

Well, darn, you mean writing centers might be like every other human endeavor on campuses?  Campuses are, of course, grand collectives of human endeavors attempting to live up to mission statements (and news releases).

Ptarmigan is a grad student, so she might still be laboring under idealistic delusions.  However, in her favor, I know she doesn't have to go pick up clues at Big Lots while they're still on sale. <interthreaduality>

I'm rarely read as so subtle that I need a <snark> tag!  Ptarmigan is abolutely spot on from the real world of Academe, How She Is Done.

Yes, I got the snark (that definitely was not directed at Ptarmigan).  I just wanted to use that Big Lots line somewhere after I saw Vox's post on a different thread.

[grasshopper]

I understand the concerns about the long-term implications for students who need constant outside assistance with their writing in order to pass a course.  I think it is incorrect, however, to suggest that all writing that happens out there in the "real world" occurs in a vacuum.  My steady side business as a freelance editor for local professionals indicates that some people do go on to land good jobs, start successful businesses, and otherwise become productive contributors to the economy/society without being skilled at copyediting a sentence or organizing an argument.  A baseline level of literacy is, of course, essential to professional self-presentation.  But in many cases, texts produced in a business environment are written, re-written, and edited by any number of individuals with the understanding that some people are more skilled writers than others (whose value to the enterprise may lie elsewhere).  In fact, one of my first out of college, making $10/hour was re-writing and perfecting the atrocious prose of executives who made six figure salaries. 

As a former rhet/comp instructor (and Writing Center consultant), I would hardly argue that becoming a competent writer is unessential, but I also acknowledge that writing in the "real world" is often collaborative and usually involves outside feedback and assistance.  As such, while acknowledging the problems that can crop up in Writing Centers--where well-meaning student tutors might go a bit too far--I would suggest that Writing Centers are places where students can not only learn more about the importance of citation and how to structure a paragraph but about the importance of assimilating outside feedback and revising, revising, revising rather than assuming that "good writing" means spitting out a gem of prose on the first try during a one-hour class session.   
 

This is a very good point, and quite true. Not all college graduates are going to have excellent math or writing skills, and some of them will still get a good job, in spite of this.

But I'm not doing job training here. That's the thing, eh? In my classes, being able to effectively marshal up all the relevant info and construct a convincing argument is a big part of what's being graded. I'm not grading them on how well they collaborate.

I do agree, though, that one of the benefits of a Writing Center is students learn about the importance of revision and feedback. The trick is to get them to do revision on their own, without being prompted.

[polly_mer]

I agree with Grasshopper.  My engineers don't have to be able to write perfect prose, but they do have to be able to bang out a reasonable report on demand.  Low-level engineers do not have technical writers fixing up their writing on a regular basis for internal reports. 

My elementary teachers don't have to be perfect, but since they, themselves, will be teaching writing, I hope that they are at least as good as I am at the basics of constructing a sentence, using pronouns, and applying punctuation and capitalization according to rules.

[lasquires]

But I'm not doing job training here. That's the thing, eh? In my classes, being able to effectively marshal up all the relevant info and construct a convincing argument is a big part of what's being graded. I'm not grading them on how well they collaborate.

I completely understand. I'm not doing job training here either.  I was attempting to obliquely address previous posts that seemed to point in the direction of "There are no Writing Centers in the "Real World," as if churning out a gem of prose on the spot, within the four walls of a classroom under direct supervision and onerous time constraints is somehow closer to "real world" writing.  There is a place for insisting that students perform all of their work without any external assistance, and there is a place for teaching them that part of learning and doing well is seeking out help or feedback where appropriate.  That seems especially salient when we're talking about a student who does not excel in a traditional learning environment.   

[grasshopper]

But I'm not doing job training here. That's the thing, eh? In my classes, being able to effectively marshal up all the relevant info and construct a convincing argument is a big part of what's being graded. I'm not grading them on how well they collaborate.

I completely understand. I'm not doing job training here either.  I was attempting to obliquely address previous posts that seemed to point in the direction of "There are no Writing Centers in the "Real World," as if churning out a gem of prose on the spot, within the four walls of a classroom under direct supervision and onerous time constraints is somehow closer to "real world" writing.  There is a place for insisting that students perform all of their work without any external assistance, and there is a place for teaching them that part of learning and doing well is seeking out help or feedback where appropriate.  That seems especially salient when we're talking about a student who does not excel in a traditional learning environment.  

Good point. I remember part of my training as a writing centre tutor was to sometimes play stupid, and model for students how to find an answer to a question (for example, by asking a librarian or consulting a style manual).