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[fuzzer]

I am a 2nd year post doc, and am working on an NIH funded project - therefore my salary is set by the NIH. My salary is approximately 40k. Although I have never felt great about what I earn as a post doc, I feel significantly worse about my salary after I learned that the data manager we hired is making over 50k per year. This data manager only has a master's degree and will be a glorified research assistant for us. Also, I will be her supervisor.

ARGH.

I have a lot of bills right now and am trying to get out from under a lot of debt, so this especially pains me. I feel like I'm being used. I have a lot of skills and I am worth a lot more than I am being paid. Also, I feel like my PI isn't being up front about what my options REALLY are for eventually transitioning to a faculty line. I want to apply to TT jobs but my PI is pushing me to fund myself through applying to grants.

Thanks for listening to me vent. I'm sure many of you are experiencing similar things where you are. If anyone has any thoughts, please pass them along.

[merinoblue]

Yup, postdoc stipends in the US and Canada are truly lousy.  It's one of the reasons I turned down a postdoc offer and took the job I'm in. I can pay my bills on my current salary. I couldn't on the postdoc stipend.

So, you're in the same boat with hundreds of other NIH postdocs. You're all vastly skilled and underpaid.  So what are you going to do about it?

1) Nothing. Carry on, get your publications out, build your networks, and get yourself on any job markets that make sense to you, academic or non-academic. You signed up for an NIH postdoc; you have to swallow the stipend. It's the deal.

2) Find another job, and leave. Always an option. It's very, very hard to feel good about earning a postdoc stipend if you compare yourself to someone in a salaried position, who probably has less education than you. Don't do it. Instead, find yourself a job that pays you a salary you think you should command, and run with that job. Don't look back. (Actually, come back here and tell us how much better your new job and salary are.)

3) Take on a part-time job, or do some freelance work on the side. I know; there is no side when you're a postdoc. But if you're not earning enough, then you need to find yourself a second income, somewhere. Or a new job. Or leave.

The postdoc life is really lousy in many ways. But it's transitional. You're in it for 1-3 years. The goal is to get your first-authored publications, build a network, get some technical/grant-writing/other experience, and prepare to launch your own career as a PI/independent investigator. It's an investment on your career.  That's what you should keep in mind whenever you feel like you're being used. If you can't, then it's time to start the job search.

[anon99]

Fuzzer, the postdoc is only temporary and in a few years, you will be making more than they are.  Having said that salary compression happens in faculty positions where some new hires are making more than people who have been there (full profs) for years.  Just remember you are currently making more than you did as a PhD student.

[hoptoad]

Have you ever considered doing a postdoc with the federal government?  I was a postdoc for an R1 and the feds, and the feds paid over 25k more (more than the starting salary of many assistant professors).  However, my benefits weren't nearly as good with the government and I worked a more rigid daily schedule.  I know I'm a sample size of 1, but IMO the federal government seems to be the only system that treats postdocs like professionals and puts them on the professional pay scale.

[frogfactory]

Not a post doc, but at least in the life sciences, have you looked into joining the national union?

[mozman]

Suck it up.  Don't like it?  Quit.

Be glad you are being paid NIH scale - remember, those are guidelines, not requirements.

[frogfactory]

Suck it up.  Don't like it?  Quit.

Be glad you are being paid NIH scale - remember, those are guidelines, not requirements.

Are you serious?  I mean, really?

[mozman]

Suck it up.  Don't like it?  Quit.

Be glad you are being paid NIH scale - remember, those are guidelines, not requirements.

Are you serious?  I mean, really?

Of course i'm serious. The OPs PI is trying to do their job and prepare the OP for a career by encouraging them to write grants and get funding, and all the OP does is b*tch about their salary. If they want more money, let them get it themselves.

And I know many people who get paid less than NIH scale. I did not as a postdoc.

[frogfactory]

Suck it up.  Don't like it?  Quit.

Be glad you are being paid NIH scale - remember, those are guidelines, not requirements.

Are you serious?  I mean, really?

Of course i'm serious. The OPs PI is trying to do their job and prepare the OP for a career by encouraging them to write grants and get funding, and all the OP does is b*tch about their salary. If they want more money, let them get it themselves.

And I know many people who get paid less than NIH scale. I did not as a postdoc.

Most of the US postdocs I know are heavily involved in the national union, and I always assumed their portrayal or attitudes like yours was cartoonish.  Apparently not.

[scampster]

I'm still astonished that the NIH postdoc salary scale is so low. Does it vary between locations? Is it rigid? Can a PI pay their postdoc more if they wanted on an NIH project? (By which I mean, can a higher postdoc salary be asked for when writing the grant?)

Mozman, just because you suffered through low postdoc salary years, doesn't mean that is the way it should be and that someone complaining about it is a whiner. I do agree with your other points about the OP complaining about their PI pushing them to apply for grants and fund themselves - being able to show that you can fund yourself seems like one of the first steps towards actually getting a TT job, so I don't see why the OP is resisting this.

[sea_and_ski]

I'm still astonished that the NIH postdoc salary scale is so low. Does it vary between locations? Is it rigid? Can a PI pay their postdoc more if they wanted on an NIH project? (By which I mean, can a higher postdoc salary be asked for when writing the grant?)

The NIH postdoc scale is national.  "Rigid" doesn't apply here as it's a guideline (other than a postdoc being paid from a F32 or T32).  You can certainly pay a post-doc more than "scale" and it's often a necessity in a high cost of living area. 

Mozman, just because you suffered through low postdoc salary years, doesn't mean that is the way it should be and that someone complaining about it is a whiner. I do agree with your other points about the OP complaining about their PI pushing them to apply for grants and fund themselves - being able to show that you can fund yourself seems like one of the first steps towards actually getting a TT job, so I don't see why the OP is resisting this.

When I (and I'm sure Mozman) make an offer to a prospective post-doc I am very clear about salary as well as project, etc.  If it doesn't meet their needs, then they shouldn't take the position.  While I think post-doc salaries are low, so are the grants that we use to pay them.  (And, unlike the post-doc salary scale which periodically increases (for any given year), our grants routinely decrease from year-to-year (modular R01 grants don't allow for a COL increase over the five years of a grant).  Thus increases in post-doc salaries come at the expense of $'s needed to pay for other aspects of the experiments.  For my lab, ~80% of the grant $'s go towards student, technician and post-doc stipends/salaries.  So as these costs increase, the rather small amount of $'s left for everything else rapidly diminishes.) 

The solution to low post-doc salaries is a long term one.  (That is they can't increase unless funding $'s increase.  For example, if there was a mandated 50% increase in post-doc salaries, two of my three post-docs would be very happy.  The one looking for a new job would be less so.)  Complaining about post-doc salaries in one's current position is not productive nor will it help the OP in the short term.

For the OP:  If you want to eventually be applying for TT positions, as a 2nd year post-doc you should be applying for (fellowship) grants.  Demonstrating the ability to successfully write grants (plus doing (and publishing) high quality and interesting science) will be key to getting the TT position you desire.

You may even be able to turn this current situation to your financial advantage by proposing to your PI that if you get a fellowship then your salary will increase by X $'s for the duration of the fellowship.  (Won't work for federally funded fellowships, but will for most privates.)

Finally, if you're going to stay in science, whether it's academics, government or industry, you will constantly be in the position of having less capable people being paid far more than you.  You can't let it eat away at you.

[anon99]

When I (and I'm sure Mozman) make an offer to a prospective post-doc I am very clear about salary as well as project, etc.  If it doesn't meet their needs, then they shouldn't take the position.  While I think post-doc salaries are low, so are the grants that we use to pay them.  (And, unlike the post-doc salary scale which periodically increases (for any given year), our grants routinely decrease from year-to-year (modular R01 grants don't allow for a COL increase over the five years of a grant).  Thus increases in post-doc salaries come at the expense of $'s needed to pay for other aspects of the experiments.  For my lab, ~80% of the grant $'s go towards student, technician and post-doc stipends/salaries.  So as these costs increase, the rather small amount of $'s left for everything else rapidly diminishes.) 

The solution to low post-doc salaries is a long term one.  (That is they can't increase unless funding $'s increase.  For example, if there was a mandated 50% increase in post-doc salaries, two of my three post-docs would be very happy.  The one looking for a new job would be less so.)  Complaining about post-doc salaries in one's current position is not productive nor will it help the OP in the short term.

For the OP:  If you want to eventually be applying for TT positions, as a 2nd year post-doc you should be applying for (fellowship) grants.  Demonstrating the ability to successfully write grants (plus doing (and publishing) high quality and interesting science) will be key to getting the TT position you desire.

You may even be able to turn this current situation to your financial advantage by proposing to your PI that if you get a fellowship then your salary will increase by X $'s for the duration of the fellowship.  (Won't work for federally funded fellowships, but will for most privates.)

Finally, if you're going to stay in science, whether it's academics, government or industry, you will constantly be in the position of having less capable people being paid far more than you.  You can't let it eat away at you.

Well said.  When I was a postdoc, I didn't realize how much money went towards salaries.  I knew how much consumables cost, but didn't see the big picture.

[hoptoad]

While I think post-doc salaries are low, so are the grants that we use to pay them.

But why do grants have to be so low?  As I said in my earlier post, I was a postdoc for an R1 and the federal government and the federal government paid 25k more (40k in academia would have made me happy - I got even less and no yearly increase).  Both positions were funded through grants from private foundations, so why can the federal government pay more?  I suspect that in the federal government system the PIs know they need to request more money because the postdocs have to be on a minimum grade and pay step, whereas academic PIs request lower amounts for postdocs because there isn't a standard salary set by the institution, it has become standard that postdoc salaries are low in academia, and PIs think requesting less money is more likely to be approved by the granting agency.  Other ideas?

And I'm not so sure that grant money is as limiting in this case as some of you senior posters assume because the data manager is being paid 50k (unless of course that salary isn't paid with soft funds).  I agree with sea_and_ski that you have to get used to less capable people being paid more than you in science, but that doesn't make it right or less frustrating.

And I didn't take the OP's statement about applying for grants as whining about finding their own funding.  I thought it sounded like they were having trouble keeping up applying for TT jobs while having to write grants (which is no small task) at the same time.

[mozman]

And I didn't take the OP's statement about applying for grants as whining about finding their own funding.  I thought it sounded like they were having trouble keeping up applying for TT jobs while having to write grants (which is no small task) at the same time.

If the OP can't write grants while on he job hunt, how will they be able to write grants while teaching, publishing and running a lab?

[mozman]

Mozman, just because you suffered through low postdoc salary years, doesn't mean that is the way it should be and that someone complaining about it is a whiner. I do agree with your other points about the OP complaining about their PI pushing them to apply for grants and fund themselves - being able to show that you can fund yourself seems like one of the first steps towards actually getting a TT job, so I don't see why the OP is resisting this.

The OP had a way to get a higher salary - write grants and get their own funding. Instead, they are complaining. That's whining in my book.