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[aaaatobbbb]

I am registered for a PhD from department A (DA). I have an academic advisor who does not pay for my research in department A (PA). My research advisor, who pays me and want me to do PhD in his lab is in another department, department B (DB). Lets call him, professor B (PB).

PB does not have a joint appointment in DA. He told me he will apply and get a joint appointment. But, since last one year, nothing has happened. DA requires some one to have a joint/additional/secondary appointment to advise students. Since, PB said, he will get a joint appt, I decided to do PhD under his guidance.

Now, I have failed my quals first time. Also, I got a MS degree this May. I am an international student. I have a debt of around 15k USD from my previous MS degree I obtained from some other univ before starting my PhD at this new university.

With my MS degree, I can look for a job. But, to apply for OPT (optional pratical training) , the last date is July 24. My quals (second attempt) is in August end. Now, to apply for OPT (and look for jobs in US), I have to terminate my status as a PhD student. If I do that, I will not be able to take quals, second time.

If I do not apply for OPT and write the quals, two things can happen. I pass the quals (which is what I want), and every thing will fall into place. If I fail the quals, I am out of the PhD program. Since, the last date for OPT application would have passed, I cannot apply for OPT in September, hence I cannot look for jobs in US (I have debt).

In the mean time, unable to cope with uncertainty, I applied for jobs and I am getting interview calls (did not tell any of my advisors). If I decide to stay and take the quals, the worst-case scenario (fail the quals) is catastrophic. If I decide to quit, not sure if I can land a job in US in next 3 months, I can at least look for a job and stay in US (I need to stay here because I have debt that is too much in my native currency), but will not be able to get a PhD. I am already 30, and I am afraid reapplying all over again and getting a PhD at 35 is not a very attractive option.

I do not know what I need to do. Should I stay or quit? My professors have never said any thing negative till now. They say, "focus on your quals, pass it, every thing will fall into place". But, I think I am really in a tricky situation. Any suggestions ? Please help. Thanks for reading my post.

[totoro]

Ideally, do you want to get a PhD really, or do you want the kind of job that comes with an MS. You can do OPT for a year but after that you'll need an H1-B and they are hard to get for non-academic positions is my understanding. Unless you are in some shortage occupation where you can get a green card fairly easily (e.g. nursing, PT etc.). So you might not succeed in staying in the US for more than a year if you take the OPT route.

[aaaatobbbb]

Ideally I want a PhD. But, if I go out-of-status after August, I will not be able to use the OPT of my MS to obtain a job in US.

H1s are filed on April 1st every year and approved in/around Sept. So, for this year, I cannot file a H1 since April 1st deadline has passed. If I take a OPT, I can stay in US for another 29 months. Within that time, I can apply for a H1 in next April and get approved by September.

But, I cannot get an OPT for an incomplete degree (this will be the case if I fail my quals, as I would have terminated without getting a PhD) and for filing an OPT for my completed degree (which is MS I got this May), the deadline would have passed.

Deciding to take the quals is highly risky. If I pass, then no problem. This is what I want. But if I fail, that leaves me without any plan B, and I am very scared to try this (since, I also have debt).

[wet_blanket]

Would any of the jobs you have applied for meet the requirements for CPT?  How does your department feel about students having outside employment?

I guess it all comes down to how confident you feel about comps.  Do people in your department routinely need two attempts?  Do most students pass eventually?  Have you talked to your professors about where your weaknesses were in the first attempt?

I'm not sure how the advisor issues relate to the question of comps.  Presumably PA has influence over your department's comps, while PB doesn't.  It seems like you're using PA to get around the redtape to enable you to do work with PB.  That will probably be fine for your dissertation, but in preparing for comps it might be helpful to cultivate a real relationship with PA or someone else in your department.

[totoro]

Ideally I want a PhD. But, if I go out-of-status after August, I will not be able to use the OPT of my MS to obtain a job in US.

H1s are filed on April 1st every year and approved in/around Sept. So, for this year, I cannot file a H1 since April 1st deadline has passed. If I take a OPT, I can stay in US for another 29 months. Within that time, I can apply for a H1 in next April and get approved by September.

But, I cannot get an OPT for an incomplete degree (this will be the case if I fail my quals, as I would have terminated without getting a PhD) and for filing an OPT for my completed degree (which is MS I got this May), the deadline would have passed.

Deciding to take the quals is highly risky. If I pass, then no problem. This is what I want. But if I fail, that leaves me without any plan B, and I am very scared to try this (since, I also have debt).

I am just saying that a PhD is a more surefire way of staying in the US.

Or maybe you think you can earn enough while doing OPT to pay off your debt? Do you owe money in the US or in your home country? If in the US, I'd be tempted to go down the path of trying for the quals and if you fail and can't stay in the US, just go home and default on paying. Everyone in the US seems to be doing that anyway :)

[wet_blanket]

If in the US, I'd be tempted to go down the path of trying for the quals and if you fail and can't stay in the US, just go home and default on paying. Everyone in the US seems to be doing that anyway :)

International students generally need a guarantor for student loans, so the OP would be leaving someone else on the hook if they took this route.

[totoro]

There's no certainty of paying off the loan going down the OPT route either. Given economic conditions they might not get a job and probability of getting an H1B is not great either. I knew someone who tried to do OPT and eventually gave up and went back to their home country (Taiwan) because they couldn't get a suitable job. And it sounds like that they are giving up on the PhD option going that route. What about trying to transfer to B's department?

[aaaatobbbb]

@wet_blanket: About CPT option: we have to complete quals by 2 years, i.e., by the end of this summer. So, I must take quals the last and 2nd time, this August. If I fail it (I want to pass, but always want to make sure I have a plan B), I am not sure if I can still do a CPT.

About quals: Last time, I failed in one subject. After that, my dept professor, PA said, replace that prof with some one who is a collaborator in our project. So, PB is the PI and all 3 of my examinees (for 2nd quals) are co-PIs. This is PAs suggestion. Now, all of them have said, they are most likely to ask a research based project for my quals. In one week, completing 3 research based projs seems daunting to me. I talked about this to PA. He said, "just dont worry".

Last time 4-5 students failed first time and eventually passed. Rarely, do students fail twice, but its not uncommon. Moreover, pass/fail is a 'fuzzy' decision based on performance/ academic/research record and perceptions. I have also heard, some times even if a student fails the advisor vouches for him/her and the student is passed. This could have been the case with me last time, but just did not happen. So, I am not sure about their perceptions. As far as academic/research record goes, I have decent 4 conf pubs, writing 2 JNL papers and will apply for a patent (mostly). So, I am not worried about this part.

"I'm not sure how the advisor issues relate to the question of comps.  Presumably PA has influence over your department's comps, while PB doesn't.  It seems like you're using PA to get around the redtape to enable you to do work with PB.  That will probably be fine for your dissertation, but in preparing for comps it might be helpful to cultivate a real relationship with PA or someone else in your department."  --- True, PA has influence over dept comps and PB does not. PA is a collaborator of PB and PB suggested me to go through PA for admin issues, asking him to be my academic advisor.

@totoro: My purpose of staying in US is to pay-off debt. I cannot default because our only house is mortgaged for this loan.

@totoro's last comment: yes, there is no guarantee of getting a job by going OPT route. But, that is one legitimate avenue that comes with my MS degree. And I am getting interview calls, hope to convert one of them to a full time job.

I am in an engineering field that is highly specialized (computer vision and robotics). There are decent number of openings in this field.

[totoro]

@totoro: My purpose of staying in US is to pay-off debt. I cannot default because our only house is mortgaged for this loan.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about that.

@totoro's last comment: yes, there is no guarantee of getting a job by going OPT route. But, that is one legitimate avenue that comes with my MS degree. And I am getting interview calls, hope to convert one of them to a full time job.

I am in an engineering field that is highly specialized (computer vision and robotics). There are decent number of openings in this field.

Well this sounds promising. Though H1Bs in the private sector are a kind of lottery maybe you can make enough in the OPT period to pay off the loan.

I think US professors often (or mostly) just don't understand how hard it can be for foreigners to have to leave a US grad program etc. There was only one person we failed on the quals when I was grad program director in the US. That person wasn't looking like they were any good on research and they managed to fail the quals twice. It was on one of the subject areas. Now if they'd had looked like being a good researcher no way would I have failed them. We would have found some way to fudge the numbers. This was an American too. It still was hard to tell them it was time to leave.

So if B is your PI and A's department is giving you a hard time on the quals I asked why you can't try to transfer to B's department and do quals there. Or is it all too radically different that there'd be no chance to do that?

[aaaatobbbb]

@totoro: I did ask about transfer to dept. B. The professor said, it is not possible to do it this year as the deadlines for admission are over. I will have to wait for one more year for the Fall 2012 admission cycle. I will be 31 and starting a PhD.

[aaaatobbbb]

@totoro: You said your department failed a student once in the past.

" That person wasn't looking like they were any good on research and they managed to fail the quals twice. It was on one of the subject areas. Now if they'd had looked like being a good researcher no way would I have failed them."

How was this decision made that that person was not good on research ? During my PhD, I have done 3 conference publications (4th one from MS degree got before starting PhD) and writing 2 journal papers. Can I still be considered as not good for research ?

Thank You.

[totoro]

@totoro: You said your department failed a student once in the past.

" That person wasn't looking like they were any good on research and they managed to fail the quals twice. It was on one of the subject areas. Now if they'd had looked like being a good researcher no way would I have failed them."

How was this decision made that that person was not good on research ? During my PhD, I have done 3 conference publications (4th one from MS degree got before starting PhD) and writing 2 journal papers. Can I still be considered as not good for research ?

Thank You.

They were getting nowhere in terms of writing a first paper and coming up with a proposal and their adviser didn't want to continue advising them.

So by that standard you are great.

BTW the way this person had a double 800 in the GRE from what I remember or close to it. But as I have often seen high GRE scores are not very predictive of research capability.

[anon99]

atob Talk to you committee to find out why you failed the first time.  Ask for specific readings to help you with those areas.

I think US professors often (or mostly) just don't understand how hard it can be for foreigners to have to leave a US grad program etc.

I don't think it is easy for any one to fail out of a program regardless of where they are from.  However, if the student is not able to meet the standards set by university/department, then they shouldn't continue.