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[daniel_von_flanagan]

In this CHE Op-Ed, Kevin Carey discusses an NPR story about this article by Carey in The New Republic.  The TNR article is one of the nicest debunkings I've seen of the notion that college degrees are no longer worth it.  He documents that (a) the "college is really expensive and graduates don't get good jobs" meme is something the press has been trotting out regularly for decades, with little variation in the nature or style of the claim, and (b) the examples such articles use to illustrate their point, specific graduates who are apparently grossly underemployed after leaving school, generally go on to excellent degree-appropriate careers not long after the articles appear. - DvF

[t_r_b]

Great article - thanks for the link.

[mystictechgal]

I listened to the NPR story yesterday and found myself thinking about these fora and wanting to pump my fist into the air on a number of occasions. Of course, I'm an undergrad in a new area (for me), having been very definitely eliminated from possible positions either because I have 20+ years of experience in the field and they think they can't pay me enough, or because I have 20+ years of experience and no degree in the area. Age, of course, undoubtedly factors in. I know I got crap rained down on my head by corporate when I hired someone at an age 2 years younger than I am, now--even though she was the best thing since sliced bread, and the sold part of the company bent over backward to keep her as part of the sale.

I'm really doubtful that, at my age, getting my degree in the new area will help any--although a few people (possible future graduate advisors) have suggested otherwise. Time will tell. I'm having fun learning new things, and, given that nothing else is forthcoming in my previous field, it's keeping me alive and somewhat solvent.

[gsawpenny]

DVF,

Thanks for the link.  It is a good article but I still question if the TNR premise isn't flawed.  I want to see how those long term trends work out for people, like me, who get degrees in the liberal arts.  Over the last ten years has there been a shift in graduates from traditional SLAC type grads to more "I am a Phoenix" types?  In short, is the value of a college education in the education or the skills learned? 

I know, I know, there will be a stream of "I learned so much much from reading" this or that stuffy author but as my plumber reminds me - he learned to read quite well by the 5th grade! (he is by the way one of the wealthiest men in he area and a major contributor to the local arts scene). 

As an historian and scholar I believe that education should be a life goal, not a degree pursuit and I agree that going to college is almost always a good idea.  My question is - how much has college changed from "bastion of liberal arts education" to "career school" within the timeframe of the TNR story?

[daniel_von_flanagan]

All the data I've seen suggest that while degrees from Phonix et al are useful for in situ career advancement, they are not as good as traditional schools at getting their graduates gainfully employed.  (Lots of this data has been published lately because of the DOE flirting with tougher student aid requirements for for-profits.)  - DvF

[polly_mer]

All the data I've seen suggest that while degrees from Phonix et al are useful for in situ career advancement, they are not as good as traditional schools at getting their graduates gainfully employed. 

The feedback we get in engineering and physical science is that employers want to hire recent graduates who can communicate and know how to learn.  The technical skills have to be there as well, but the employers want to see that someone can do the hard work of a prolonged project with picky details instead of breezing through the stripped down style-over-substance project.

A certificate is better than nothing, but a certificate as part of an apprenticeship is much more likely to get one into gainful employment.  The worst possible thing to do in terms of getting a post-graduation job is to focus completely on job-training via classes (the Phoenix model) instead of doing an apprenticeship or having a heaping dose of broad education in a variety of areas.

[educator1]

In quantitative methods fields the feedback is the same. An ability to communicate effectively to a broad array of audiences is vital. A student with great technical skills who can only communicate with others in the field will be passed over quickly (except in academia). One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

This is getting off the topic a bit, but I really loathe the whole notion of internships, the overwhelming majority of which are either unpaid or exploitatively underpaid.  These are avenues only open to children of privilege. - DvF

[wet_blanket]

One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

This is getting off the topic a bit, but I really loathe the whole notion of internships, the overwhelming majority of which are either unpaid or exploitatively underpaid.  These are avenues only open to children of privilege. - DvF

Or, in some cases, required for the completion of the degree so that the student must pay for the privilige of being exploited.  On the other hand, there are many industries that simply won't hire people who've spent all their life in school and haven't any hands-on experience.  There's an argument to be made that these industries should take responsibility for training their young employees, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that in the world as it is now an internship or three can be a huge advantage on the job market for a new graduate.

[eddyman]

One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

This is getting off the topic a bit, but I really loathe the whole notion of internships, the overwhelming majority of which are either unpaid or exploitatively underpaid.  These are avenues only open to children of privilege. - DvF

x100

[polly_mer]

One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

This is getting off the topic a bit, but I really loathe the whole notion of internships, the overwhelming majority of which are either unpaid or exploitatively underpaid.  These are avenues only open to children of privilege. - DvF

x100

In engineering, we have a lot more co-ops than internships.  While I'm sure some underpaid positions exist, usually the positions are pretty good both in terms of pay and in terms of experience whatever the official term (REU, research intern, summer experience, co-op, etc.)

Getting coffee for free as a humanities undergrad is a bad idea, though, I agree on that.

[masonsavoy]

College pays... check out this chart http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm from the Bureau of Labor Statistics...

[educator1]

One of the best ways to get a "foot in the door" as well as excellent resume items is to do internships over the summer.

This is getting off the topic a bit, but I really loathe the whole notion of internships, the overwhelming majority of which are either unpaid or exploitatively underpaid.  These are avenues only open to children of privilege. - DvF

Data Please! 

This from a recent article in our local paper:

Nationwide, companies planned to hire 7 percent more interns in 2011 compared with 2010, according to a March report by the National Association of Colleges and Employers. Most indicated the positions would be paid, with hourly wages averaging $17 for students with a bachelor’s degree and $24 for graduate students.

Hardly exploitative in my opinion (especially given what student assistants make).

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Intern Nation:How to Earn Nothing and Learn Little in the Brave New Economy
by Ross Perlin (Verso, 2011)

NYT Op-Ed based on his book.

Similar issue in England.

Nice though that the employers are self-reporting that they are not exploiting (at least half of) their interns.  There are very new laws that make it harder to offer unpaid internships; I wonder how many of those employers were happy to hire interns for free through last year, and are now patting themselves on the back for being responsible now that they can't get the free labor anymore.

Someone who already has a degree should not be hired as an intern, they should be hired as an employee.  There's nothing wrong with people taking gofer jobs to get an in into a business (this is what one of the people discussed in the TNR article did), but when a company calls grunt work an "internship" it is an excuse to pay less for the work. - DvF

[educator1]

There should probably be a separate thread to discuss the internship issue.

Check out the national academy foundation, a successful high school reform model that focuses on minority and low income populations. Their academies have significantly higher graduation and college entrance rates than other HS programs.
One of their four pillars involves the provision of paid internships for their students.