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[drstrangetoughlove]

Hi,

Has anyone had any experience working with or preferably actually hiring adjuncts/lecturers from overseas. In particularly from Eastern Europe. The people have Ph.D.s, are highly motivated/hard-working and very well qualified on paper, so my questions are more to do with actual experience:

i)   How did the person cope with transitioning to the U.S.
ii)  What work visa did they use. In particular which can be used so the person doesn't jump ship.
iii) Culturally, were there any problems with working in a U.S. educational institute.

We don't intend on flying people out to interview. The cost of hiring these people is fairly small, so we plan on hiring a few and see which ones work out.

Thanks.

[mouseman]

So, basically, they're cheap, they work hard, and they're disposable.  What are you going to have for your next thread - a question on how to hire undocumented aliens to work on your landscaping?

Congratulations!  You are now part of the problem. 

[totoro]

Hi,

Has anyone had any experience working with or preferably actually hiring adjuncts/lecturers from overseas. In particularly from Eastern Europe. The people have Ph.D.s, are highly motivated/hard-working and very well qualified on paper, so my questions are more to do with actual experience:

i)   How did the person cope with transitioning to the U.S.
ii)  What work visa did they use. In particular which can be used so the person doesn't jump ship.
iii) Culturally, were there any problems with working in a U.S. educational institute.

We don't intend on flying people out to interview. The cost of hiring these people is fairly small, so we plan on hiring a few and see which ones work out.

Thanks.

I am wondering how they will get visas to work in the US in temporary positions such as these. Maybe a J visa? Maybe this isn't as simple as you think. Oh, I see you asked about visas. To get an H visa you will need to interview and document that there were Americans you considered but these were the best candidates and the visa costs money to you and to them (or all to you). And you need to pay the "prevailing wage". I was a tenure track prof in the US on an H visa as well as a VAP on a J so I know about this stuff to some degree.

If you are coming from Eastern Europe and never studied or taught in the US before there will certainly be adjustment to the approach I think. I found every new educational system I entered (Israel, Britain, and then the US) to be pretty confusing at the beginning.

[walkingtree]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

So, basically, they're cheap, they work hard, and they're disposable.  What are you going to have for your next thread - a question on how to hire undocumented aliens to work on your landscaping?

Congratulations!  You are now part of the problem. 

[drstrangetoughlove]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas, though in all fairness most are from China and India. So hiring adjuncts from overseas makes sense. We'd never compromise the quality of our teaching, but if excellent instructors are available, are motivated and happen to be inexpensive, then everyone wins.

[retrenchment]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas, though in all fairness most are from China and India. So hiring adjuncts from overseas makes sense. We'd never compromise the quality of our teaching, but if excellent instructors are available, are motivated and happen to be inexpensive, then everyone wins.

You must be proud.

[mystictechgal]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas, though in all fairness most are from China and India. So hiring adjuncts from overseas makes sense. We'd never compromise the quality of our teaching, but if excellent instructors are available, are motivated and happen to be inexpensive, then everyone wins.

'Kay, I was going to let this go, but you responded. Game on.

But, you are not going to fly them in for interviews, but hire them wholesale based on their paper qualifications.

Hmmm, let's see. Given your statement that "the cost of hiring "these people" is fairly small so we intend to hire a few and see which ones work out" is not at all problematic to you?

My husband once hired (industry) a recent Russian immigrant, and I advocated for her hire. Our boss, when the resume was submitted was skeptical, thinking her application with grammatical and syntax mistakes were a joke (both my husband and I had studied Russian--they were normal missteps with the language). Luckily for her, and for us, he left the position and my husband took it. We hired her, and she was wonderful. (Yes, there were some acculturation difficulties.)

When I posted a job opening (at a F100 company) for a programmer, some many years later, I received all sorts of applications from non-nationals, some already inside the U.S., and some outside. They were wonderfully qualified on paper. I set up phone interviews with some of them. It became almost immediately apparent that they not only didn't have the qualifications their resumes said they had, but they didn't even know that their resumes had been sent to us. On more than one interview conclusion, when already eliminated, but trying to end it gracefully, I asked if they had any questions. On three occasions they did: "So, do you have job available then?"

It is my fervent hope that you go through with your plan, that they are as abysmally deficient in person as my candidates showed to be on interview, and that their hire over actually qualified people in the country (whatever their nationalities) comes back to bite you in the butt big time. I feel sorry for your students, and I hope they find out about your hiring practices and sue your ass off.

Yes. There are absolutely supremely qualified candidates outside of the country--even from Eastern European countries. Failing to do due diligence in hiring, no matter where one is from, is leaving such a bad taste in my mouth that it is souring the very excellent glass of Merlot I am drinking at the moment.

However ultimately qualified they are, or are not, they stand taller on the ladder of humanity than you do.

Gah.  I want to wretch, and my stress levels generally only make that so in the mornings.

[totoro]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas, though in all fairness most are from China and India. So hiring adjuncts from overseas makes sense. We'd never compromise the quality of our teaching, but if excellent instructors are available, are motivated and happen to be inexpensive, then everyone wins.

You don't get it. They won't be allowed to work in the US in a part-time job and you need to show proper procedures to get the visa. Now if you are talking about a full-time VAP position with a 2 or 3 year contract then sure they could likely get a J or H visa but this will cost money and time and you need to do proper interviews of some sort and advertise for an H visa and pay the prevailing wage. For J you can probably appoint whoever you like based on my experience. These would still need to be fulltime post-doc style positions to qualify and if not they are going to have to show how they are going to support themselves in the US to get a visa.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas

Actually, depending on how you define "from overseas", it is more like 30-40% depending on field [1].  90>40, but maybe your STEM field doesn't involve numbers? - DvF

[1] Lowell, B.L., Babco, E., & Ellis, R.A. (2010). The foreign-born in science and technology. Commission on Professionals in Science and Technology. STEM Workforce Data Project. Report No. 4. CPST Online Publications.  (This includes all "foreign born" science faculty, regardless of citizenship, ethnicity, or where they were educated.)

[bluezebracat]

That they don't "jump ship."  Wow. OP has no idea how the visa system works at all--maybe a quick stop at USCIS or at the International Students/Faculty Office would be a good idea.

[mouseman]

You are so right, mouseman. I have seen this happen many times--the fate of cheap, hard working, and disposable foreign intellectuals. When they are all used, they are thrown out of the border. Academia is another big tomato farm.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what area you are in, but in Science and Engineering 90% of faculty are from overseas, though in all fairness most are from China and India. So hiring adjuncts from overseas makes sense. We'd never compromise the quality of our teaching, but if excellent instructors are available, are motivated and happen to be inexpensive, then everyone wins.

Your problem is that you aren't taking this one step further.  Hire undocumented immigrants to teach your classes.  Seriously, you'll pay a lot less than you'll pay anybody who can work legally, because you can fire them at will.  Better than that -  with no legal recourse on their side, you can ask them to do anything!  Think of it:  not only will they teach any class that you need, you can demand that they make coffee for you, clean your house, give you foot rubs, and, if the feel the urge, a bit of after-hours "professional development" (wink-wink).  If they say "no", kick them out, call the INS, and hire somebody who is even hungrier.  Everybody wins - you get your classes taught for a pittance, get your own personal group of academic and personal slaves, the administration gets to cut teaching costs by 80%, the students all get A's, and the "adjuncts" get to stay in the country, for now. 

If you're looking for ways to exploit people, don't do a half-assed job!

[charlesr]

Have them teach on-line courses from their own countries.  Then at the end of the semester don't pay them.  What can they do?

[drstrangetoughlove]

Your problem is that you aren't taking this one step further.  Hire undocumented immigrants to teach your classes.  Seriously, you'll pay a lot less than you'll pay anybody who can work legally, because you can fire them at will.  Better than that -  with no legal recourse on their side, you can ask them to do anything!  Think of it:  not only will they teach any class that you need, you can demand that they make coffee for you, clean your house, give you foot rubs, and, if the feel the urge, a bit of after-hours "professional development" (wink-wink).  If they say "no", kick them out, call the INS, and hire somebody who is even hungrier.  Everybody wins - you get your classes taught for a pittance, get your own personal group of academic and personal slaves, the administration gets to cut teaching costs by 80%, the students all get A's, and the "adjuncts" get to stay in the country, for now. 

If you're looking for ways to exploit people, don't do a half-assed job!

What on earth are you talking about?
Why not read my original post before you start jumping off on tangents?

I discussed what work visas to hire them on: hence of course we are not hiring illegally.
We are hiring multi-year lecturer style positions (full time or part-time) so we want high quality people and will not ask them to do anything else than teach their classes.

I guess you feel these people are competitors with you, but they are not.

We are at a top 10 science department so getting high quality lecturers (most faculty buyout at least one course) to teach many classes year in year out is tough. These type of people need to be highly qualified and have great *positive* attitude, not this "whoa me" rubbish your spouting. If you've ever been in the situation you know that students expect a lot as does the department/deans and there is great competition to get high quality lecturers, hence we are opening our horizons by looking overseas.

[totoro]

What on earth are you talking about?
Why not read my original post before you start jumping off on tangents?

I discussed what work visas to hire them on: hence of course we are not hiring illegally.
We are hiring multi-year lecturer style positions (full time or part-time) so we want high quality people and will not ask them to do anything else than teach their classes.

I guess you feel these people are competitors with you, but they are not. .

I think your attitude about "seeing who works out", "hiring people cheaply" etc. has gotten you these negative reactions. If you are talking about full-time VAP style positions I see no problems - but you have to advertise and take either Americans or foreigners, whoever is more qualified for the position. And you need to pay the prevailing wage, you can't pay less to foreigners. And foreigners will have to work full time unless they are PhD students or something. The foreigners could come in on either H or J visas potentially. I had a J visa when I was a VAP in the US (I'm a UK and Australian citizen) there wasn't any advertisement, it was at my alma mater. The downside of a J for the holder is it requires one to return to ones home country. I'm not sure about whether you can or cannot get an H for this type of position (I held one of these as a tenure track professor). People holding these visas cant just "jump ship" or they can but need to apply for a new visa with the new employer. They can't work for anyone else in the US apart from the company that hired them. This is why they need to be full-time. It won't be obvious for someone from an entirely different academic system how to teach a class/course in the US when they've never seen this "modeled" by taking a class in the US. So some getting up to speed will be essential.

[bluezebracat]

OP doesn't seem to understand the ire that has been inspired by his/her post.

Assuming OP did not mean to indicate a preference for exploiting labor:

Visa--this is beyond your hands.  Your university's legal and international dept will handle this.  Note that if a candidate is being hired from overseas for a full time 1+ year contract, they will have to have documents proving prospective salary in hand.  The visa system has been designed, theoretically speaking, to diminish labor competition (I'm talking about professional fields here, not the workers being invited to work in chicken factories).  To make a long story short, it makes zero sense to look at hiring internationally to save labor costs at the university level.  ZERO.  You'll have to pay them a working salary/more than a living wage, way more than adjuncts--see USCIS guidelines.

In other words, if you want to have cheap adjunct labor, exploit locals.

OP, to give you the benefit of the doubt, most of us are probably puzzled as to which far flung field you could possibly work in that you cannot find local lecturers--we're not talking about the top 1 or 2 specialists in a field here.  You're looking for someone to teach undergrads.