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[hilarious]

Hello Forum,

I wanted to ask a question about negotiation in the UK, though this has come up before. I've received an offer that is slightly less than the mid-point of the pay scale. It's 40K, more than I make currently outside the UK when calculated with today's exchange rate, but the cost of living is much less where I am. 

I have been an assistant professor since 2005 and I have just received tenure at my institution.  The university that has made an offer doesn't know that yet.  Would they care? Would it be worth making an argument that I should go up on the scale since I just received this promotion elsewhere?  It doesn't help that my pay raise at my current institution would actually only be about 5%, so still in total it would be less than what they are offering me in the UK.

I have seen on the forum that negotiation isn't so common in the UK.  I don't want to make a mistake by not negotiating, since even a small raise means a lot over the long term, but I also don't want to try if I'm going to fail. 

Also, would the HR person who sent my letter be the appropriate person to ask?

Thanks very much for your help!

[scotia]

There is no harm in asking for an extra increment or two, but ask expecting a no (on our forms, at least, you would have had to indicate your salary in advance so they would know that you are getting a raise). You could indicate that the cost of living is a factor in your request. I am not sure whether the tenure would make any difference here: we do not have a tenure system so it would not be a big deal for a UK university.

I have seen on the forum that negotiation isn't so common in the UK.  I don't want to make a mistake by not negotiating, since even a small raise means a lot over the long term, but I also don't want to try if I'm going to fail. 

Bear in mind that you will get annual increments in addition to any negotiated COL rise (this year imposed way below the COL, which means we are currently in dispute) until you reach the top of the scale or get promoted to the next scale so this is probably not as true here as it would be somewhere without increments.  One of the things to watch is when you get an increment: sometimes joining after a certain time means you have to wait more than a year for the first increment. One of my friends could not persuade an extra increment out of the university, but did persuade them to give her an increment after four months (in the month that all other staff getting increments received them) rather than waiting 16 months as would have been the norm.

I don't know the answer to the question about who to contact. I have done it both ways: my biggest factor was always who I could get hold of quickly.

[qrypt]

Make sure you've caught the bit about how the UK system doesn't do tenure. 

[the_walrus]

Like others, I wouldn't have thought that they would care about tenure.  But if you've been promoted (e.g., from assistant to associate) then I would think you might be able to make an argument for being appointed at senior lecturer/reader, rather than lecturer, which is what it sounds like you're being appointed at currently.  (SL would then come with appointment at a higher grade on the scale).  If they advertised as only lecturer, they might be unwilling/unable to do this, but given your promotion (if indeed tenure comes with that), then I'd certainly try to make that argument.  (Again, without arguing about tenure, which is a non-issue.  It's promotion that matters.)

[scotia]

Like others, I wouldn't have thought that they would care about tenure.  But if you've been promoted (e.g., from assistant to associate) then I would think you might be able to make an argument for being appointed at senior lecturer/reader, rather than lecturer, which is what it sounds like you're being appointed at currently.  (SL would then come with appointment at a higher grade on the scale).  If they advertised as only lecturer, they might be unwilling/unable to do this, but given your promotion (if indeed tenure comes with that), then I'd certainly try to make that argument.  (Again, without arguing about tenure, which is a non-issue.  It's promotion that matters.)

I have never seen anyone successfully argue an offer at lecturer up to SL, and certainly cannot imagine it succeeding from someone offered at the mid-point of the lecturer scale. We make the offer at a rank determined by CV and interview performance.

[the_walrus]

We make the offer at a rank determined by CV and interview performance.

Right, so if the CV changes before the offer is accepted (through promotion at OP's current place of employment), then that's something that might be considered?

[drspouse]

I've heard of people applying for L and asking to be appointed (in some cases successfully) at SL.  I would HIGHLY recommend asking this, as they are not going to take away your offer of L based on this, making the case that you've been promoted at your current institution. It is REALLY hard to get internal promotion in the UK.

[the_walrus]

What Dr Spouse said.  It can't hurt.  The worst they're likely to say is 'no', and I'd have thought that given that your CV is changed, minimally you ought to come out of the negotiation with an additional point or two on the payscale.

The one caveat about SL/Reader is that you'd have to be dealing with a uni that actually (regularly) has these grades, which is, I believe, most, except for Oxbridge.  It's unclear to me whether they have them, but what is clear to me from job ads is that their 'lecturer' grade is the same as SL/Reader (in monetary terms, at least) as SL elsewhere.

But, judging by the offer, it sounds like that's not what you're dealing with anyway.

[hilarious]

Thanks very much for all of your replies.  I'm pretty hesitant about asking for a SL position (which they do have at this Uni) since I just feel that's going too far -- wouldn't they have posted it differently if they wanted to hire at that level? Also, I am hoping to get a grant (should know in July) which would give me time away from the Uni and if I get it I want to try to negotiate a later starting date or some time off for research in my first year. I'm just afraid of asking for too much.  The money is of course important, but my partner is also earning -- he's in the corporate world and has never negotiated his salary and thinks this whole thing we academics do to get every last penny we can is appalling! 

[theblondeassassin]

The one caveat about SL/Reader is that you'd have to be dealing with a uni that actually (regularly) has these grades, which is, I believe, most, except for Oxbridge.  It's unclear to me whether they have them, but what is clear to me from job ads is that their 'lecturer' grade is the same as SL/Reader (in monetary terms, at least) as SL elsewhere.

Oxford has phased out "Reader" as an academic rank, so there are now two "regular" titles, Lecturer and Professor.

The prevailing belief is that Lecturer is equal to Professor elsewhere, and Professor is superior to everywhere else.

[scotia]

If you the job was not advertised at SL the hiring university might struggle to justify an SL appointment (the argument is that it could have changed the field had the post been advertised at SL and the appointee might not then have been the best candidate available - this has been the case at 3/3 universities where I have been involved in appointments. The best I have seen is a promise that someone would be promoted rapidly using internal procedures after appointment).

OP - I would definitely at least try to negotiate at least one increment (being cheeky I might start with two). They could say 'no' but you will not be left wishing you had asked.

Something else to check is removal expenses. I overlooked this with my first job and discovered I had joined the only place I have ever come across that did not pay removals within the UK other than to chair appointments (that policy changed not long after I arrived. Fortunately I had an understanding Dean who found me a bit of paid additional teaching so I did recover the cost).

[mingus]

It is incorrect to say that the UK system does not have "tenure".  It certainly does not have the rigourous system that USA/Canadian systems impose in order to ensure "security of tenure" (which is what "tenure" actually means).  But past probabition---whick in the UK one fails only by doing stupid things, such as molesting the Dean's dog---UK academics indeed do have "security of tenure", which generaly means job security except in unsual circumstances (e.g. necessary redundandies, gross misconduct, etc.). 

[drspouse]

Actually, the UK system used to have genuine tenure - a system under which it was impossible to fire someone or make them redundant unless they wished to leave.

My former university used to have a Chemistry department but it was closed at whatever point the number of Chemistry departments was slashed.  However one or two academics did not wish to leave and there was no way to make them. A colleague there tells me of finding a Chemistry professor in an office in the basement next to the central heating plant, where he used to come every day to read the newspaper. They couldn't get rid of him because he had tenure, but they could make life inconvenient.

We now have "permanent positions" from which it is possible to be made redundant.

[qrypt]

It is incorrect to say that the UK system does not have "tenure".  It certainly does not have the rigourous system that USA/Canadian systems impose in order to ensure "security of tenure" (which is what "tenure" actually means).  But past probabition---whick in the UK one fails only by doing stupid things, such as molesting the Dean's dog---UK academics indeed do have "security of tenure", which generaly means job security except in unsual circumstances (e.g. necessary redundandies, gross misconduct, etc.). 

Perhaps you could explain the 1988 Education Reform Act in other terms, then.  Or perhaps not.

[drspouse]

I didn't know 1988 was the crucial date, but that makes good sense from the timing of what my former colleague was telling me.