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[navelgazer]

So, my husband is a post-doc in a lab science. Most people in his field have one two or three year post-doc and then go to industry or academia. My husband left his first post-doc after a year when I got my TT job (we had an infant at the time). He switched sub-fields in order to be in the best lab at my school, adding another year for a total of four years right now.

Then his adviser dropped dead in the fall, just as all the assistant professor applications were being looked at. Their last conversation was, literally, "tell me what schools you want me to call." This adviser has placed 30+ people over his career and told my husband earlier that he thought he would get 2-4 interviews (more if it wasn't for the spousal issue). My husband only got one interview, he didn't get the offer, and then the search committee chair told him "I will write you a recommendation letter for next year, you should be a professor." She also told him that dead adviser would have made sure more people looked at my husband's work. My husband might go on the job market again, but he has no real support because 1. dead adviser 2. dead-beat grad adviser.

The thing is, I hate his job. They are keeping the lab nominally up and running because dead adviser was a PI on several multi-investigator grants. They *need* this work to get done in order to get their grant renewals. So, my husband and the one other remaining postdoc are doing the work the other professors need done in order to further their careers as a post-doc for post-doc wages. It seems like he could do this indefinitely right now, but there has been no offer of even a temporary staff position. This lab is not my husband's research agenda. It is not really his work. He kinda loves it though, he gets to think up new ways of taking the projects and then just does the work. It's lonely but interesting everyday.

But for what end? Not for a TT job, not for a decent salary, not even for a staff position. The other professors can't even really write him letters (other than a "cover letter" to explain the dead adviser situation) because they aren't nearly as high profile as either dead adviser or dead-beat grad adviser.

I hate hate hate this. I want him to get out of the academy now. I get so angry just thinking about how they are using him. It is no longer about training. They system *failed* him. Even if he gets a job, not having dead adviser behind him for grants is going to be a HUGE issue. The only person that can help us out of here is dead-beat grad adviser whose recommendation letters were 45 days late. And yet, he's telling everyone he is going on the market next year and staying in this s***, exploitative system.

What am I missing here?

[corvus_caurinus]

What am I missing here?

Compassion?

[zharkov]

What am I missing here?

I think you answered your own question:

He kinda loves it though, he gets to think up new ways of taking the projects and then just does the work. It's lonely but interesting everyday.

He loves the job and it is interesting.  More than you could say for 90 pct of the jobs in this country.

[hegemony]

Is his getting a job really only a matter of having an advisor pulls strings?  That's not how it works in my field -- an advisor puts in a good word for you, but you sink or swim on your own merits.  It may be different in your husband's field -- I'll let the scientists weigh in on this one.  But surely some folks have found jobs without their advisor making it happen?

Another question I have is whether your husband is as dissatisfied with his situation as you are, and what he wants to have happen.  If you have a t-t job, would his getting a job at another place (even if his advisor were around and made it happen) be the best answer?  Wouldn't it separate you?

[crowie]

It's understandable to want to rail against, literally, fate (your husband's advisor's ill-timed death).  But it sounds like your husband is less frustrated than you are.  I also can't tell if your rage is at the situation or, somehow, at your husband.  There is something about the anger you express in this and other threads that seems very passionate in relation to what actually looks like a reasonable (not ideal, but not abysmal) situation.  Yes he's underpaid and isn't being offered anything permanent there.  Yes it's unfortunate that his good advisor died and his other advisor is a flake.  But, as you recognize, your husband has paid employment in a good lab, doing work that he enjoys for the most part, and lives with his wife and young child.  

You might want to consider going to individual counseling so that you can share with an empathetic listener all the different sides of your anger so that you can do more than vent about it, but rather come to understand and even control it.  There just seems to be something about the cosmic injustice of it all that seems to go beyond the immediate situation that is upsetting you, and it feels like you need to some how get it out of your system.

[spectacle]

This lab is not my husband's research agenda. It is not really his work. He kinda loves it though, he gets to think up new ways of taking the projects and then just does the work.

If he loves it, does it matter that you hate it?

The other professors can't even really write him letters (other than a "cover letter" to explain the dead adviser situation) because they aren't nearly as high profile as either dead adviser or dead-beat grad adviser.

Just because they're not high profile does not mean that they do not have connections and the ability to help your husband get a job.  If Dead-Beat Grad Advisor is really being deadbeat, your husband should have a sincere conversation with him about how the death of Dead Advisor has really stalled his career, and ask Dead-Beat Grad Advisor what can be done to rectify the situation - if anything.

I hate hate hate this. I want him to get out of the academy now.

But it seems that he wants to stay.  Why should you make this decision for him?  Not to sound harsh, but it sounds presumptuous that you think that you should get to dictate when your husband quits academia.  There are things that I don't like about my husband's job - they do take advantage of him at times and it infuriates me.  But lord, he freaking LOVES that job.  Who am I to tell him to quit?
  
I think I understand your frustration, and I do believe that everyone in academia who is aiming for the TT should have a hard and fast timeline ("If I don't have a TT job in 3 years, I have X as a back-up plan...").  But I don't think that anyone should get to dictate those timelines to anyone else.  

How outraged would we be if our husbands tried to dictate our career paths for us?

[walkingtree]

I am also curious about this. Do advisors have that much power, such that they can give you jobs? My advisor did horrid things to me and I didn't bother to tell him that I was job searching. I am sure the schools I interviewed called him up. When he learned that I didn't get any of the jobs, he said he could have pulled some strings for me if I told him (I didn't believe him). But is it true that your advisors have that much power to secure you jobs? I know that they can get in your way by saying bad things about you, but is the other way true?

Is his getting a job really only a matter of having an advisor pulls strings?  That's not how it works in my field -- an advisor puts in a good word for you, but you sink or swim on your own merits.  It may be different in your husband's field -- I'll let the scientists weigh in on this one.  But surely some folks have found jobs without their advisor making it happen?

[southerntransplant]

I am also curious about this. Do advisors have that much power, such that they can give you jobs? My advisor did horrid things to me and I didn't bother to tell him that I was job searching. I am sure the schools I interviewed called him up. When he learned that I didn't get any of the jobs, he said he could have pulled some strings for me if I told him (I didn't believe him). But is it true that your advisors have that much power to secure you jobs? I know that they can get in your way by saying bad things about you, but is the other way true?

My grad advisor (STEM) is a cool person and an all around nice guy, but if I had relied on him to get a job for me I'd still be unemployed.

[humanfactor]

Sounds to me as if someone has found a scapegoat! (Possibly two if dead advisors count.)

[navelgazer]

I am also curious about this. Do advisors have that much power, such that they can give you jobs? My advisor did horrid things to me and I didn't bother to tell him that I was job searching. I am sure the schools I interviewed called him up. When he learned that I didn't get any of the jobs, he said he could have pulled some strings for me if I told him (I didn't believe him). But is it true that your advisors have that much power to secure you jobs? I know that they can get in your way by saying bad things about you, but is the other way true?

My grad advisor (STEM) is a cool person and an all around nice guy, but if I had relied on him to get a job for me I'd still be unemployed.

Thanks everyone, we're both in counseling right now and I'm the first one to admit that I need some more understanding about why he wants to stay. I am not angry at him, but rather the situation especially the post-doc. This stuff has been going on for six months and I just want the bandaid to be ripped off already.

However, I fail to see how this isn't exploitation. I don't hate that he is happy, I hate that people "in his building" are abusing his smarts, his good will, and his belief that he can somehow become a life-time scientist still despite the actual words coming out of their mouths to the contrary. They are using his work to get paid more than 5 times as much as he does, indefinitely. He wants his own research agenda, too, which is definitely a side issue right now.

As far as "getting people jobs," I was careful with my language. It is *interviews* that these phone calls *help* with, definitely not getting jobs. I have no idea how it works in his field, I'm just taking the word of our many friends (with and without TT jobs, inside and outside the academy) who believe this to be true. His one interview was in a top-twenty program where the search committee chair called his science "beautiful" and told him that he should be at an R1. His defacto adviser now told him that more interviews would probably lead to a job because he "must interview well" but was very cautious about him/anyone trying twice.

(I also kinda thought the "not good enough to call" comment was weird, btw.) I can't even get into deadbeat grad adviser except to say any possible way that you can possibly think of to get ahold of him we've tried short of going across the country in person. One of the few areas of absolute consensus across friends, colleagues, other advisers has been that he has to be on board 100% making calls next year. I think a lot of my anger stems from my husband's willingness to put faith in that rotten apple.

Oh, and we need a spousal, so this is most likely going to be another 12 months of heartache that will lead in a dead end for me.

But, yea, still trying on the compassion. Still trying to understand how anyone can argue that this post-doc system is anything less than exploiting the hopes and dreams of a man I love.

Oh, and as far as the trollish "scapegoat" comment, I fail to see how this changes my hatred of his job. If anything I'm inclined to agree with this comment.

[merit_decrease]

The postdoc system is standard in STEM, and it is pretty normal to do postdocs of several years. 

I would say it is lucky for your husband to be able to keep working in the laboratory after his advisor passed away, rather than have to scramble around for an unexpected third postdoc while also searching for TT jobs.  What happened to his advisor was sad and unfortunate, but now he should focus on making good connections with the other professors on the multi-investigator grants, who will be able to write rec letters for him in his search.
Phone calls are not that important.

Try to focus on the positive and what you and your husband can do to make your life good and happy.  It does sound like you are really stressed right now.

[spectacle]

Oh, and we need a spousal, so this is most likely going to be another 12 months of heartache that will lead in a dead end for me.

Hmmm... again, don't take this as hostility (it's not), I'm just trying to understand your situation.  Do you think that maybe you're pushing for your husband to leave academia because you don't want to deal with the two-body problem anymore?

Also, would it be feasible for you guys to live a year or two apart if he got a really great offer?

[anon99]

The postdoc system is standard in STEM, and it is pretty normal to do postdocs of several years. 

I would say it is lucky for your husband to be able to keep working in the laboratory after his advisor passed away, rather than have to scramble around for an unexpected third postdoc while also searching for TT jobs.  What happened to his advisor was sad and unfortunate, but now he should focus on making good connections with the other professors on the multi-investigator grants, who will be able to write rec letters for him in his search. Phone calls are not that important.

Try to focus on the positive and what you and your husband can do to make your life good and happy.  It does sound like you are really stressed right now.

Merit decrease nailed it.  What is your husband doing differently now, then when his advisor was alive?  He's getting valuable experience running a lab and is probably interacting more with the co-PIs on the grants than he would have otherwise.  It sounds like he's getting to design projects which is exactly what he'd do as a PI.  He isn't working for BigName, but many other people are trying to fill in for BigName.  How are they taking advantage of your husband?  Are they paying him less than he was offered?

[totoro]

What am I missing here?

Your problem seems to be the low salary he is getting. But carrying out the work his adviser planned and publishing it successfully would have to be good for his career. At some point recommendation letters are not so important and your own achievements as a researcher are more significant.

[crowie]

It sounds like you don't think he's ever going to get a "real job" in academia, an assistant professor job. It sounds like you believe that his previous job search was a one-shot deal and since it got f-ed up by the dead advisor and the flaky grad advisor there is nothing he can do about and he can't go on the market ever again.  So he needs to "rip the bandaid off" and get out of academia now rather than continuing to plow his energy into it. 

But the evidence I'm seeing on this thread from others in STEM fields is that it's not a disaster to have a post-doc for a couple of years, that it's still in the realm of possibility for him to get a good job, that it's possible for him to show his potential from the work he is doing in the postdoc and that he may still have a viable career path even even with the dead advisor and the flaky grade advisor; that for him to try again one more time is not ridiculous or a pipe dream.
 
I just wonder if there is some psychic pay-off on your side to your seeing this in such emotional terms: "This unjust, exploitative system destroyed my beloved husband's chance of getting a job in academia despite his great talents so he will just have to quit now."  The spousal hire issue that you raised may provide an explanation for what's under the anger--anxiety and fear of the unknown.  It's ok for you to have mixed feelings about him going on the market and potentially negotiating a spousal hire; who wouldn't be concerned about that if they were the one going to be affected.